Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[RoadTrip]

Because what they are doing is not the same? Did Israel hunt down 250 youths at a rave?
Israel can claim to protect their security - ironically now more than ever. Hamas can't say the same about their attack.

Just because our western media outlets choose to distort the news we see, doesn’t mean you have to live with your head in sand.

 

[dinostar77]

So what do people think can be a long term solution for the whole region? A two state solution as planned by the UN? Hamas don't want that. Netanyahu doesn't want it either.

Its the only answer. Its the only answer for a long term peace.

What palestinians want and what iran (via proxy of hamas and hellzboulah) want are very different things.

 

[MadMike]

There is absolutely no justifying Hamas’ inhumane attack on civilians. But you can easily understand where this hatred comes from. We can condemn these abhorrent attacks, and we do. But they don’t happen in a vacuum. Everyone knows the context.

An Israeli NGO (BreakingTheSilenceIsrael) made of Israeli soldiers giving their testimonies paints a clear picture of the (recent) historical context.

Hamas's attack and the events unfolding since yesterday are unspeakable. We could talk about their cruel and criminal actions, or focus on how our Jewish-supremacist government brought us to this point. But as former Israeli soldiers, our job is to talk about what we were sent to do.

Israel's security policy, for decades now, has been to "manage the conflict". Successive Israeli governments insist on round after round of violence as if any of it will make a difference. They talk about "security", "deterrence", "changing the equation".

All of these are code words for bombing the Gaza Strip to a pulp, always justified as targeting terrorists, yet always with heavy civilian casualties. In between these rounds of violence we make life impossible for Gazans, and then act surprised when it all boils over.

We talk about "normalization" with the UAE and now Saudi Arabia, while hoping the world will turn a blind eye to the open-air prison we built in our backyard. Apart from the unfathomable violation of human rights, we've created a massive security liability for our own citizens.

The question Israelis are all asking is - where were the soldiers yesterday? Why was the IDF seemingly absent while hundreds of Israelis were slaughtered in their homes and on the streets? The unfortunate truth is that they were "preoccupied". In the West Bank.

We send soldiers to secure settler incursions into the Palestinian city of Nablus, to chase Palestinian children in Hebron, to protect settlers as they carry out pogroms. Settlers demand that Palestinian flags are removed from the streets of Huwara; soldiers are sent to do it.

Our country decided - decades ago - that it's willing to forfeit the security of its citizens in our towns and cities, in favor of maintaining control over an occupied civilian population of millions, all for the sake of a settler-messianic agenda.

The idea that we can "manage the conflict" without ever having to solve it is once again collapsing before our eyes. It held up until now because only few dared to challenge it. These heartbreaking events could change that. They must. For all of us between the river and the sea.

 

[RoadTrip]

Let's go down that route then, they are both wrong. Which leaves pure pragmatism, with no morality to consider. With that in mind, how does Hamas' actions benefit Palestinians? Israeli attacks generally have the added effect of containing and repressing Palestinians, destroy infrastructure that can be used against them and instilling a sense of hopelessness and inevitability into the populace, while giving Israeli politicians cover to take more land due to the increased radicalisation. Because of their military's superiority it is also usually a very low risk action.

What benefit will Palestinians get from what Hamas is doing?

Well your argument here is fundamentally flawed because, evidentially, the actions of Israel over time is what caused such an atrocious terrorist attack on their soil.

But let’s be clear. The Israeli government is as much of a terrorist organisation as Hamas. The difference is one has been legitimised.

 

[hasanejaz88]

Target the Israeli military, instead of civilians?

That would be the obvious answer

Hahaha yea true but @do.ob just said Israel is justified in targeting civilian buildings right now because of the attack. So you're contradicting yourself there.

If he will come out and say Israel is unjustified in targeting civilians like they are now, we would be in agreement, but he isn't saying that.

 

[dinostar77]

this is an educational and informative watch

 

[MDFC Manager]

Target the Israeli military, instead of civilians?

To be fair, neither of the belligerents is actually able tov solely target each other because of obvious reasons (tech superiority for one side and urban warfare for the other side).

 

[Zen86]

Hamas' goal is the destruction of Israel, not just the liberation of Palestine. That's a very important distinction. They aren't interested in coexistence, so their actions should always be seen in light of their ultimate goal.

They want radicalisation, Arab-Israeli relations to collapse and an all out war of religion. Pushing Israel to overreact and completely destroy any chance of normalisation with Arab countries would be a success for them. An all out war between all Arab nations and Israel (and the US inevitably) isn't something they want to avoid, but rather something they would like to see happen. Their strategy pretty much puts civilians in the firing line on purpose, all to serve a greater goal - the ultimate destruction of Israel and the rise of an Islamic Palestinian state in its place - at any cost.

This attack is notably different than previous attacks though. Far more brazen, brutal and extensive. If I were to speculate, I'd assume it's because of a combination of Saudi-Israeli relations normalising rapidly, Iran's interests currently aligning with Hamas' and "achieving" far more in the attack than they had actually believed possible. Right now their goal is probably to use the situation to turn as much of the Arab world as possible against Israel. I suspect they have grossly miscalculated the response they will see from key Arab states.

Agree.

In terms of response though, they wanted Isreal to obliterate Gaza. This is just the beginning, Isreal are ready to march in and it will turn into a bloodbath. All that carnage will inevitably rally people to their cause. They’re the new IS, except with a stronger foothold to base their operations.

 

[RoadTrip]

I don't understand anyone justifying killing, its always the civilians the who pay with their lives. But i wish people would keep the same energy when being outraged at these heinous acts when either side commits them. What Hamas did was barbaric, and what has been done to Palestine is inhumane. And innocents on both side pay the price.

This is the key point really. The reason this issue creates so much tension is because the world is told Israel is in the right and just defending themselves, whilst Palestinians through Hamas (which isn’t even true) are evil.

If the world say both as equally terrorising innocent people inhumanely, then there may be a route to eventually bring people together. A long, perilous, and road, and perhaps a dead end, but as things are ain’t anything changing.

 

[do.ob]

Hahaha yea true but @do.ob just said Israel is justified in targeting civilian buildings right now because of the attack. So you're contradicting yourself there.

If he will come out and say Israel is unjustified in targeting civilians like they are now, we would be in agreement, but he isn't saying that.

I don't think Israel would be justified to hit civilian buildings just for the sake of killing civilians. But I suspect with Hamas the lines between civilian buildings and non-civilian buildings will get blurred. So I don't think a bomb hitting a civilian building is necessarily the same as civilians being massacred down point blank.

 

[MDFC Manager]

It's an observation of the consequences of Hamas' terror, nothing more. Or does anyone think Gaza would look like in this video today without Hamas' barbarism?

For someone who isn't on the ground to verify the actually magnitude, today's images of Gaza look the same as last year, or the year before, etc.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

This is the key point really. The reason this issue creates so much tension is because the world is told Israel is in the right and just defending themselves, whilst Palestinians through Hamas (which isn’t even true) are evil.

If the world say both as equally terrorising innocent people inhumanely, then there may be a route to eventually bring people together. A long, perilous, and road, and perhaps a dead end, but as things are ain’t anything changing.

Dunno about the world but it looks to me that we’re as close as we ever get to a consensus on redcafe about exactly that.

 

[MDFC Manager]

This is the key point really. The reason this issue creates so much tension is because the world is told Israel is in the right and just defending themselves, whilst Palestinians through Hamas (which isn’t even true) are evil.

If the world say both as equally terrorising innocent people inhumanely, then there may be a route to eventually bring people together. A long, perilous, and road, and perhaps a dead end, but as things are ain’t anything changing.

Good points! The narrative set by powerful governments is everything.

 

[dinostar77]

Harvard students blame ‘apartheid regime’ for Israel-Gaza war, alumni react
A coalition of 34 Harvard University student organisations has issued a pro-Palestinian statement in reaction to the continuing Israel-Gaza war, prompting outrage from the university’s prominent alumni.
The students of the most influential university in United States politics said in the statement published on Monday that they “hold the Israeli regime entirely responsible for all unfolding violence” between the Palestinians and Israelis following decades of occupation, adding that “the apartheid regime is the only one to blame”.
The organisations signing the letter included Muslim and Palestinian support groups as well as others named for a variety of backgrounds including the Harvard Jews for Liberation and the African American Resistance Organization.
Prominent Harvard University alumni on Monday denounced the pro-Palestinian statement and urged the university to take action against the signatories.
Read the story here.

 

[Sweet Square]

People on here love to play armchair generals.

 

[The Boy]

As long as Iran keeps financing terror,

This is the key part of this, however it plays out Iran benefits. The normalisation of relations between the Arab world and Israel goes against everything the Iranian leadership believes in and stands for and anything that stops that from happening is a win in Tehran.

The expected over the top IDF response and the effective flattening of Gaza over the coming days, makes it much harder for countries like Saudi Arabia to achieve full diplomatic ties with Israel and while it probably won't unite the Arab world against Israel it muddies relations and disrupts any form of peace process completely. The Iranian anti zionist and anti US imperialism stance can not alow peace in the middle east and thousands of innocents have already and will continiue to be killed because of ideologically driven governments in Israel and Iran.

Anyone taking just one side in this regardless of events either has skin in the game or lacks the knowledge of the horrors carried out by all sides.

 

[owlo]

Yeah but Israel does undermine the integrity of West Bank by taking land in East Jerusalem and the West Bank so while obviously there is 'enough land', it's hard to have stability due to that.

I'd imagine a 2 state solution has some sort of stability as a prerequisite though; if Israel were just going to Russia it by taking bits every few years it wouldn't work, and both sides know that.

Which would be great if Palestine controlled all of it.

That is how much they control.

 

[dinostar77]

UN said israel has targeted and bombed civilian tower blocks and hospitals in the gaza strip.

How is that not a war crime?

Targeting military targets is legit, civilian tower blocks and hospitals though?

The UN video response is on this page, not sure how to just get the video though.

https://aje.io/o1fsl5?update=2397222

 

[Simbo]

So what do people think can be a long term solution for the whole region? A two state solution as planned by the UN? Hamas don't want that. Netanyahu doesn't want it either.

I don't think a good solution is possible, maybe one day in the past, certainly not now. It'll be back to the status quo with a state of constant tension and stronger/harsher border controls on Israel's part to limit Hamas' attempts at reprisals that lead to escalation.

 

[VorZakone]

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[Mike Smalling]

Its exactly the same. Israel just has a much bigger stick.

The difference in these situations has always ɓeen that Israel/America/whoever look for military targets and try to avoid civilian casualties, on Saturday Hamas went straight for the civilians. That's changed the landscape of the fight on the Israeli side too.

Israel have hardly tried to avoid civilian Palestinian casualties, even before this latest Hamas attack.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I don't think Israel would be justified to hit civilian buildings just for the sake of killing civilians. But I suspect with Hamas the lines between civilian buildings and non-civilian buildings will get blurred. So I don't think a bomb hitting a civilian building is necessarily the same as civilians being massacred down point blank.

The outcome is the same. Dead civilians. So we’re really just debating the difference between not caring about civilian casualties vs actively wanting them dead. Which is a fairly tenuous moral high-ground.

To me what Hamas have done that is most evil is to kill those Israeli civilians with the intention of provoking this response. They were hoping to see bombs rain down on Gaza today. That’s their goal. As part of a broader power grab in the region. That’s the most fecked up thing here.

 

[VorZakone]

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[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

I've seen no evidence of large scale sexual violence by Hamas against Israeli women. And I believe it would be out there as the atrocities are relatively well documented and celebrated. It's confined to these 3 incidents:

- The Shani Louk situation. No evidence she was raped
- A Hamas terrorist violating a dead Israeli [female] soldier with a baton
- A Hamas terrorist groping the teenage daughter of a hostage. Shouted to stop by other terrorists and immediately did.

There's the article that @Pogue Mahone linked, in which a single witness mentioned rape. [and the article mentions it once]

I've also seen [male] emasculations in photos, but not in videos.

I've also seen, unfortunately, Israeli's urinating on dead bodies. Verification not done as it could be from previous conflicts but the amount of false stuff, disinformation is massive.

 

[Andy_Cole]

I don't understand anyone justifying killing, its always the civilians the who pay with their lives. But i wish people would keep the same energy when being outraged at these heinous acts when either side commits them. What Hamas did was barbaric, and what has been done to Palestine is inhumane. And innocents on both side pay the price.

According to the BBC though the Israelis have been murdered/ killed. Palestinians have died.

 

[golden_blunder]

People on here love to play armchair generals.

Yes, annoying.

children & innocent people on both sides don’t choose war, they want to live in peace so their children can play outside safe without bombs and bullets. Nothing is achieved by going the route of war. The more that die, the more kids that will grow up with bitterness and falling into the same pattern and do we keep going around in circles for decades, wasting life.

yet people on this thread will find ways to justify the actions of both sides. There is no justification for killing innocents! Ever.

it’s going to take someone with big balls to lead them to a two state solution, I can’t see any other way forward that doesn’t lead to more bloodshed

 

[That_Bloke]

Is there a better one? I've yet to see the 'strategy' of Hamas here, outside of what has been posted.

There is sympathy, understanding and compassion of the position that Palestinians are in. That in such a situation, many people would feel like lashing out is the only option. But giving into that urge is not a strategy.

There is no world where Hamas' terror attacks would improve the lives of the people it represents in my opinion. No outcome where the children and innocents who in theory Hamas is there to 'help' benefit. Hamas carried out these attacks, and it is the innocents who will suffer.

Find me a country on Earth that would turn a blind eye to 1,000 civilians being killed in a planned, deliberate terrorist attack by its neighbour and whose response will be talks.

The situation in Palestine is deplorable, and as a world community more should be done. But. This week is about the action of Hamas. History does not absolve such an idiotic, selfish and disgusting act.

Before going any further and to be absolutely clear, anyone rejoicing at the despicable massacre of 900 (and counting) Israelis minding their own business is a worthless piece of trash.

There's absolutely none, outside of the human rights organizations that work there. None that matters. The world, and I include the arab countries and Iran, doesn't give a flying one about them. Their story is one of the greatest tragedies since the end of WWII but people simply don't want to hear about it.

Find me a country that's been keeping millions of people in an open-air prison for decades, in dreadful conditions, occupying and eating away their country piece by piece in complete and utter impunity, while the world's watching and doing absolutely nothing. Then wonder how and why an extremist organization like Hamas can find recruits desperate enough to carry out such a horrible slaughter. You see the terrorist attack but you don't see or hear, unless you try really really hard, the silent deaths that occur, day after day, behind that wall. And a good chunk of them are civilians.

People only start to react when this shit happens and just refuse to see or understand what lead to this situation. It drives me absolutely mad.

I don't think Israel would be justified to hit civilian buildings just for the sake of killing civilians. But I suspect with Hamas the lines between civilian buildings and non-civilian buildings will get blurred. So I don't think a bomb hitting a civilian building is necessarily the same as civilians being massacred down point blank.

Kinda cleaner.

 

[Pirlo'sBeard]

UN said israel has targeted and bombed civilian tower blocks and hospitals in the gaza strip.

How is that not a war crime?

Targeting military targets is legit, civilian tower blocks and hospitals though?

The UN video response is on this page, not sure how to just get the video though.

https://aje.io/o1fsl5?update=2397222

It is. Israel have been committing war crimes for years but are allowed to get away with it. Netanyahu is posting videos on his twitter of air strikes obliterating Gaza.

 

[VorZakone]

Yes, annoying.

children & innocent people on both sides don’t choose war, they want to live in peace so their children can play outside safe without bombs and bullets. Nothing is achieved by going the route of war. The more that die, the more kids that will grow up with bitterness and falling into the same pattern and do we keep going around in circles for decades, wasting life.

yet people on this thread will find ways to justify the actions of both sides. There is no justification for killing innocents! Ever.

it’s going to take someone with big balls to lead them to a two state solution, I can’t see any other way forward that doesn’t lead to more bloodshed

American leadership and initiative seems needed here. No one else has the geopolitical weight to get a peaceful solution moving. But the US is staunchly pro-Israel.

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

I'm not disagreeing with you, you're stating the obvious. Western hypocrisy is a real thing. But it seems to me intellectually dishonest to overcorrect for that and pretend as if the West does nothing good so whatsoever and happily ignores "extermination" of a group. And I had to call that particular post out.

Good point. You see this a lot on the left

 

[Andy_Cole]

Before going any further and to be absolutely clear, anyone rejoicing at the despicable massacre of 900 (and counting) Israelis minding their own business is a worthless piece of trash.

There's absolutely none, outside of the human rights organizations that work there. None that matters. The world, and I include the arab countries and Iran, doesn't give a flying one about them. Their story is one of the greatest tragedies since the end of WWII but people simply just don't want to hear about it.

Find me a country that's been keeping millions of people in an open air prison for decades, in dreadful conditions, occupying and eating away their country piece by piece in complete and utter impunity, while the world's watching and doing absolutely nothing. Then wonder how and why an extremist organization like Hamas can find recruits desperate enough to carry such a horrible slaughter. You see the terrorist attack but you don't see or hear, unless you try really really hard, about the silent deaths that occur day after day behind that wall. And a good chunk of them are civilians.

People only start to react when this shit happens and just refuse to see or understand what lead to this situation. It drives me absolutely mad.


Kinda cleaner.

Good post

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

Harvard students blame ‘apartheid regime’ for Israel-Gaza war, alumni react
A coalition of 34 Harvard University student organisations has issued a pro-Palestinian statement in reaction to the continuing Israel-Gaza war, prompting outrage from the university’s prominent alumni.
The students of the most influential university in United States politics said in the statement published on Monday that they “hold the Israeli regime entirely responsible for all unfolding violence” between the Palestinians and Israelis following decades of occupation, adding that “the apartheid regime is the only one to blame”.
The organisations signing the letter included Muslim and Palestinian support groups as well as others named for a variety of backgrounds including the Harvard Jews for Liberation and the African American Resistance Organization.
Prominent Harvard University alumni on Monday denounced the pro-Palestinian statement and urged the university to take action against the signatories.
Read the story here.

Yeah, when Larry "Epstein Island Alumni" Summers is denouncing you...

 

[Gehrman]

Before going any further and to be absolutely clear, anyone rejoicing at the despicable massacre of 900 (and counting) Israelis minding their own business is a worthless piece of trash.

There's absolutely none, outside of the human rights organizations that work there. None that matters. The world, and I include the arab countries and Iran, doesn't give a flying one about them. Their story is one of the greatest tragedies since the end of WWII but people simply just don't want to hear about it.

Find me a country that's been keeping millions of people in an open air prison for decades, in dreadful conditions, occupying and eating away their country piece by piece in complete and utter impunity, while the world's watching and doing absolutely nothing. Then wonder how and why an extremist organization like Hamas can find recruits desperate enough to carry such a horrible slaughter. You see the terrorist attack but you don't see or hear, unless you try really really hard, about the silent deaths that occur day after day behind that wall. And a good chunk of them are civilians.

People only start to react when this shit happens and just refuse to see or understand what lead to this situation. It drives me absolutely mad.


Kinda cleaner.

Its not an open air prison, but what China has done to Tibet is arguarbly worse, infinitely more civilians have been killed and tortured and all their homeland annexed. I sometimes use that as a parallel because Tibetans have not once I believe used terror tactics and the timeframe is almost has long. Tibetans tend to self immolate than resort to something like this. It doesnt mean, that I cant understand people in Gaza resorting to extreme measures(on some level anywyay) but you can draw comparisons.

 

[Zen86]

Israel have hardly tried to avoid civilian Palestinian casualties, even before this latest Hamas attack.

Isreal treat civilian casualties as acceptable collateral damage, partly due to the fact that Hamas position themselves around vulnerable civilian infrastructure. It’s unfortunate, but there is a distinction between accepting civilian casualties and outright seeking them out. If Israeli soldiers started purposely gunning down women and children and claiming victory, I suspect world opinion would shift very quickly. And who knows, maybe that will be the case when they go in.

 

[kafta]

According to the BBC though the Israelis have been murdered/ killed. Palestinians have died.

Exactly. The whole world seems to sympathize with one side over the other, while the reality is that there are innocent casualties on both sides. The media is a main factor in that.

 

[owlo]

I'm not sure exactly what I can share in terms of graphics in the post reddit world of private groups etc, but this info is taken from an infographic not created or verified by myself, but by a pretty reliable source, though he himself has collated/amalgamated it from others. (retired Aussie Major General)

Shows the brutality and senselessness of this, and its just the start.

Civilians killed in first 48 hours of response: 10-15x Crescent Wind
Munition release: 1.5x rate of Crescent Wind
CCR: Unknown, but likely between 3:1 and 5:1 - Hamas claim Israel generally have 2:1, whilst Israel claim to have 1:3.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Exactly. The whole world seems to sympathize with one side over the other, while the reality is that there are innocent casualties on both sides. The media is a main factor in that.

Not true. I can’t speak for the whole world, obviously, but I’m seeing a huge amount of sympathy for the residents of Gaza in all the mainstream media I’m exposed to (UK and Irish mainly)

 

[neverdie]

What is the point of UN peacekeeping forces if in a conflict like this they cannot intervene (basically ever, except to run schools and hospitals)?

 

[kaku06]

Before going any further and to be absolutely clear, anyone rejoicing at the despicable massacre of 900 (and counting) Israelis minding their own business is a worthless piece of trash.

There's absolutely none, outside of the human rights organizations that work there. None that matters. The world, and I include the arab countries and Iran, doesn't give a flying one about them. Their story is one of the greatest tragedies since the end of WWII but people simply don't want to hear about it.

Find me a country that's been keeping millions of people in an open-air prison for decades, in dreadful conditions, occupying and eating away their country piece by piece in complete and utter impunity, while the world's watching and doing absolutely nothing. Then wonder how and why an extremist organization like Hamas can find recruits desperate enough to carry out such a horrible slaughter. You see the terrorist attack but you don't see or hear, unless you try really really hard, the silent deaths that occur, day after day, behind that wall. And a good chunk of them are civilians.

People only start to react when this shit happens and just refuse to see or understand what lead to this situation. It drives me absolutely mad.

Excellent post.

 

[owlo]

I've also seen, unfortunately, Israeli's urinating on dead bodies. Verification not done as it could be from previous conflicts but the amount of false stuff, disinformation is massive.

Yes, some sad stuff is happening on both sides. I was just trying to specifically address the 'facts' of organized Hamas sexual violence, which seems untrue.