Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

I did spoiler and warn. I'm always torn with these, but sometimes end up posting them as it speaks better for the emotional state of the population than my meaningless words. It puts people into a position where you can understand the helplessness and rage, and feelings of revenge. There's value to seeing the crushed buildings and terrible life in gaza too, for the same reasons.

Words are just backs and forth between Palestinian supporters and Israeli supporters who draw most of their empathy for a single side. Videos like this cut through that.

Not sure how someone shooting a dog is cutting through anything tbh.

 

[Gehrman]

The Israelis control every single exit point of Gaza, as well as the power lines and access to water, and boy they use that as leverage more often than not, even in time of "peace". The inhabitants can't leave Gaza unless approved by Israel and/or Egypt, a quite rare occurence. There's a maritime blockade and the Gazaouis can't go further than 11km of the coastline which is a problem when it comes to fishing. The airport has been bombed by the IAF which controls their airspace in its entirety. There are severe restictions on importation of goods as well as exportations, which basically ruined Gaza's economy leading to an explosion of unemployement (about 52%). According to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East, 68% of the households are food insecure. Homes in the Gaza Strip suffer, on an average, 17 hours of power cuts daily according to the same organization. My ex-wife who was there and told about the daily humiliations and chicanes at the checkpoints. People there have no hope, there's no future they can look forward to.

But yeah, lets play semantics and say that it's not exactly an open-air prison.

I have no doubts that China had no qualms suppressing the Tibetans but I'm not really sure of what you're getting at. Should the Palestinians self-immolate to make their voice heard, or are you implying that their culture and religion makes them more prone to acts violence towards others? Because as far as I know, human history proved that when occupying forces go too hard on the population, they do tend to revolt and it's generally bloody. Also if the occupying forces dispose of an overwhelming military advantage, the occupied will then concentrate on "softer" targets. The objective here isn't to obtain decisive military victory, this generally can't be achieved, but to make the cost of occupation so high that it becomes not worth it at some point. I can give you two recent examples I'm familiar with, The Indochina and Algeria Wars of Independance in the 50's and 60's. You can add the Black Resistance against the Apartheid regime in South Africa, in a different context though.

Apologies in advance if I misunderstood you.

I was simply mentioning a people who have about a similar population who have been subjected to genocide, torture, oppression and being thrown into chinese prison camps and have had their country annexed while the world watched and did nothing. It was more about finding someone who could be in some way compared to the people of palestine and responding with the terror tactics havnt been on the table. But apart from that i guess the situation perhaps in many ways cant be compared. When it comes to Israel and Palestine I have no fecking realistic idea about should be done.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

@Murder on Zidane's Floor You might have a point really. They can easily be used as propaganda. Mods might want to give some sort of direction. That said the reactions to them show some sort of humanity from many people and a deep sense and regret for suffering (like barstool above), even as others use it to show how evil the other side is.

I know but we can all see it, we all know where this stuff is, I'm being selfish but would prefer the more grim stuff isn't posted here. Just my personal take you know.

 

[11101]

Agree, I was more talking to the specific example in the OP.

Also I'm not sure its true Isreal avoided civilian casualties over the years in Gaza.

I clarified that point. They don't care about collateral or making mistakes but they're not specifically targeting civilians.

 

[Zen86]

Obviously, there is an element of collateral damage from Hamas essentially using civilians as human shields, and Israel accepting that as collateral. But there has definitely also been an element of disregard for what and where they bomb, that goes beyond that. It's pretty easy to find examples of that by simply searching for it. One example, was the shelling of the UNRWA schools that didn't just kill civilian Palestinians, but also 10 UN staff. There is also the general use of excessive force and disproportionate retaliation (i.e., kid throws rock at armoured vehicle, kid gets shot).

Yes, Israel do not indiscriminately kill hundreds of civilians like Hamas just did, but I simply don't think you can claim that Israel generally tries to avoid civilians casualties. They don't care about that one bit.

Isreal obviously don’t care and clearly exercise excessive force, but for all the talk of conventions, most countries wouldn’t allow civilians casualties to get between them and a military target when in a state of war. It doesn’t help that Hamas facilitates civilian casualties where they can as it strengthens their cause, so what we essentially have is two sides in a bitter war, neither of which care about Palestinian lives.

 

[The Corinthian]

I clarified that point. They don't care about collateral or making mistakes but they're not specifically targeting civilians.

They are and they do. They indiscriminately bomb because they just want to pulverise the people and they hold Gazan civilians accountable for the actions of Hamas. Why do you think so many Gazan children end up dead? 160 children have died in the last 48 hours. Saying it’s all collateral is a massive insult and a shocking thing to excuse.

 

[Cassidy]

I clarified that point. They don't care about collateral or making mistakes but they're not specifically targeting civilians.

I'm not 100% sure that is true of IDF

 

[Mike Smalling]

Isreal obviously don’t care and clearly exercise excessive force, but for all the talk of conventions, most countries wouldn’t allow civilians casualties to get between them and a military target when in a state of war. It doesn’t help that Hamas facilitates civilian casualties where they can as it strengthens their cause, so what we essentially have is two sides in a bitter war, neither of which care about Palestinian lives.

Yeah, we are in agreement. What I objected to in the orignial post was the notion that "Israel generally try to avoid civilians casualties". They don't.

 

[owlo]

Agree, I was more talking to the specific example in the OP.

Also I'm not sure its true Isreal avoided civilian casualties over the years in Gaza.

It's true. They don't do badly at all.

 

[cyberman]

I notice America aren’t wanting Israel not to venture into Palestine as they’re doing so with Ukraine. Why isn’t Biden threatening to pull back support?

 

[owlo]

I notice America aren’t wanting Israel not to venture into Palestine as they’re doing so with Ukraine. Why isn’t Biden threatening to pull back support?

because the Palestinians aren’t a near superpower loaded with icbms that could ignite world war?

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

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It's antisemitism (rightly so) to ask Jewish people to justify or defend Israel's actions because Jewish people ≠ Israel.

Yet, the same standard isn't held for Palestinians. I don't understand it.

 

[Drizzle]

I hate what's now happening to Gaza. It's disgusting.

But realistically, what would be a proportionate response by a country to 1000 of its civilians being slaughtered, raped and abducted? Especially when the majority of those responsible are hiding in schools, hospitals etc? Genuine question. There obviously has to be a proportionate military response, but what could it be to minimise innocent human suffering?

 

[golden_blunder]

I sometimes feel angry with myself for being more and more numb to humanitarian crisis in conflict areas throughout the years, but seeing this genuinely brought me to tears at work. I couldn't even imagine myself with my kids in a situation like this. This is what should flood the international news, not the back and forth geopolitical nonsense that deflect the attention from the real suffering. What's sickening is that it looks like we are so far away from a solution to this extremely complicated conflict that it feels like we have to accept that the suffering will continue indefinitely.

Yeah that first one did me in too. Heartbreaking

 

[neverdie]

But realistically, what would be a proportionate response by a country to 1000 of its civilians being slaughtered, raped and abducted? Especially when the majority of those responsible are hiding in schools, hospitals etc? Genuine question. There obviously has to be a proportionate military response, but what could it be to minimise innocent human suffering?

You could ask the same for/about the Gazans. What should they have done? We hate what's happened but when they have no other means of fighting back and are kept in a dungeon, there obviously has to be a proportionate military response, how should Hamas minimise human suffering?

See how quickly that falls apart? No one countenances the legitimacy of it for a second but what difference? Palestinian civilians, also, slaughtered, raped, and abducted (just more regularly).

 

[Ragnar123]

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The “joy” you might be seeing is the idea that, for the first time in history, we might have a chance to reclaim our land. We might have a chance to end the occupation, we might have a chance to open Gaza’s borders, to visit our family without reprisal, and to escape from torturous prisons – this time without a spoon in our hand.

And how exactly does murdering 1000 civilians increases their chances against Israel's oppression. Do they think, that Israel backs down in their ways after watching their kids being raped and murdered? I would really like to understand that logic. Where exactly do they see a chance now to end the status quo.

 

[RoadTrip]

Ah this old chestnut.

What's morally worse? Intentionally killing 1000 civilians or "accidentally" killing 5000?

The problem though is that Israel does kill innocent civilians. But you’re either choosing to ignore that or are only following the narrative our media show us. So this argument collapses. Israel and Hamas aren’t really any different. They are both awful and do inhumane things. But one has western backing - which is why views like yours exist.

 

[Drizzle]

You could ask the same for/about the Gazans. What should they have done? We hate what's happened but when they have no other means of fighting back and are kept in a dungeon, there obviously has to be a proportionate military response, how should Hamas minimise human suffering?

See how quickly that falls apart? No one countenances the legitimacy of it for a second but what difference? Palestinian civilians, also, slaughtered, raped, and abducted (just more regularly).

I dont think you understood that it was a genuine question. I agree that hate begets hate etc. But clearly Israel must respond, so what could it do to seriously hurt Hamas but minimise civilian suffering?

And by the way, saying they should do nothing, withdraw from Gaza and seek peace doesn't come under 'realistic'. Of course ultimately Israel has to pursue a just peace for both nations and stop the occupation, but it can't not respond to one of the barbaric terror attacks in recent history, every nation on earth would respond.

 

[VorZakone]

I hate what's now happening to Gaza. It's disgusting.

But realistically, what would be a proportionate response by a country to 1000 of its civilians being slaughtered, raped and abducted? Especially when the majority of those responsible are hiding in schools, hospitals etc? Genuine question. There obviously has to be a proportionate military response, but what could it be to minimise innocent human suffering?

I don't know to which extent the Israeli population demands a proportional military response. But I've seen Israeli's say that attacking & occupying Gaza is not a wise choice for Israel.

So with that in mind, in an ideal world (I guess) Israel sticks to:

• Clearing any remaining Hamas fighters from Israeli territory.
• Secure the border.
• Try to do a hostage/prisoner swap with Hamas.
• Start thinking about how to solve this conflict for once and for all. Whatever policies they have cooked up in recent decades, it is going nowhere. Part of this should be to stop the illegal settlements into territories where Palestinians live. Don't evict Palestinians out of their homes.

 

[neverdie]

I dont think you understood that it was a genuine question. I agree that hate begets hate etc. But clearly Israel must respond, so what could it do to seriously hurt Hamas but minimise civilian suffering?

Come to a settlement and enforce international law. Having done that, as it has been asked for years running by hundreds of nations, but ignored, unilaterally, this position would not exist. As to the response. Habitual airstrikes on Gaza are habitual for a reason. People say this is out of the norm, and it is in scale, but in terms of proportionality, what we're actually saying is Palestinian lives are worth less because they suffer this routinely from Gaza to the WB. The idea that Gaza can be wiped out in response, apparently normative in the most extreme of Israeli quarters, is genocidal.

There is no solution except a mediated political solution.

 

[Cassidy]

I hate what's now happening to Gaza. It's disgusting.

But realistically, what would be a proportionate response by a country to 1000 of its civilians being slaughtered, raped and abducted? Especially when the majority of those responsible are hiding in schools, hospitals etc? Genuine question. There obviously has to be a proportionate military response, but what could it be to minimise innocent human suffering?

Do you hate what's been happening in Gaza for over a decade?
I mean I don't think this can be looked at in isolation at all, and I think its a circular argument.

Palestinian civilians are starved and evicted from their homes illegally, WB / Gaza is occupied by Isreal etc
Palestinian militants in retaliation commit crimes against Isreal
Isreal then in retaliation commits crimes against Gaza
And so it continues

 

[owlo]

I don't know to which extent the Israeli population demands a proportional military response. But I've seen Israeli's say that attacking & occupying Gaza is not a wise choice for Israel.

So with that in mind, in an ideal world (I guess) Israel sticks to:

• Clearing any remaining Hamas fighters from Israeli territory.
• Secure the border.
• Try to do a hostage/prisoner swap with Hamas.
• Start thinking about how to solve this conflict for once and for all. Whatever policies they have cooked up in recent decades, it is going nowhere. Part of this should be to stop the illegal settlements into territories where Palestinians live. Don't evict Palestinians out of their homes.

Won't green smiley you because I think (hope?) your post is not a troll. But its so far off the constraints of reality, that it just cannot happen.

 

[VorZakone]

Won't green smiley you because I think (hope?) your post is not a troll. But its so far off the constraints of reality, that it just cannot happen.

My post is not a troll.

 

[Ragnar123]

So with that in mind, in an ideal world (I guess) Israel sticks to:

• Clearing any remaining Hamas fighters from Israeli territory.
• Secure the border.
• Try to do a hostage/prisoner swap with Hamas.
• Start thinking about how to solve this conflict for once and for all. Part of this should be to stop the illegal settlements into territories where Palestinians live. Don't evict Palestinians out of their homes.

That would make Hamas' barbarism successful. First of all what state would suffer that kind of terrorism against it's own people, renounce retaliation and start diplomatic talks? That's not an ideal world, that's a fairytale. It will be also a very dangerous world if terror organizations get the feeling that they can improve their positon with Stone Age methods. As hard as it sounds, Israel has no other option than to destroy Hamas now. US and every other military power would do the same without thinking twice.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

But realistically, what would be a proportionate response by a country to 1000 of its civilians being slaughtered, raped and abducted? Especially when the majority of those responsible are hiding in schools, hospitals etc?

You can just not bomb the schools and hospitals, y'know.

 

[Mike Smalling]

Do you hate what's been happening in Gaza for over a decade?
I mean I don't think this can be looked at in isolation at all, and I think its a circular argument.

Palestinian civilians are starved and evicted from their homes illegally, WB / Gaza is occupied by Isreal etc
Palestinian militants in retaliation commit crimes against Isreal
Isreal then in retaliation commits crimes against Gaza
And so it continues

Yep, and it would require a major concession from one of the sides to stop that cycle - one that would lead to them seriously losing face among their supporters. Since both Israel and Hamas are essentially controlled by hardline, right-wing types that is almost impossible to imagine. I'd also say, that there aren't really a lot of concessions that the Palestinians/Hamas can make. It's Israel, as the oppressor, that would need to take a first step towards peace, but they won't.

 

[Drizzle]

I don't know to which extent the Israeli population demands a proportional military response. But I've seen Israeli's say that attacking & occupying Gaza is not a wise choice for Israel.

So with that in mind, in an ideal world (I guess) Israel sticks to:

• Clearing any remaining Hamas fighters from Israeli territory.
• Secure the border.
• Try to do a hostage/prisoner swap with Hamas.
• Start thinking about how to solve this conflict for once and for all. Whatever policies they have cooked up in recent decades, it is going nowhere. Part of this should be to stop the illegal settlements into territories where Palestinians live. Don't evict Palestinians out of their homes.

Yeah this is rational. But Hamas needs to be damaged seriously otherwise they'll do it again, and worse. So it will require military action in Gaza. No other country would be expected to just passively respond to this, regardless of its past actions and complicity.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

It will be also a very dangerous world if terror organizations get the feeling that they can improve their positon with Stone Age methods. As hard as it sounds, Israel has no other option than to destroy Hamas now. US and every other military power would do the same without thinking twice.

That is already the world we live in and it isn't going to change because of military action. We already went through this with 9/11.

 

[Drizzle]

Do you hate what's been happening in Gaza for over a decade?
I mean I don't think this can be looked at in isolation at all, and I think its a circular argument.

Palestinian civilians are starved and evicted from their homes illegally, WB / Gaza is occupied by Isreal etc
Palestinian militants in retaliation commit crimes against Isreal
Isreal then in retaliation commits crimes against Gaza
And so it continues

Yes I do. But that's not the question I'm asking. Regardless of its crimes, Israel is still a country and it must protect its citizens. Letting Hamas get away with this is clearly not an option, nor would it be for any other country on earth.

I'm asking, how to do it while minimising civilian suffering.

 

[Drainy]

And how exactly does murdering 1000 civilians increases their chances against Israel's oppression. Do they think, that Israel backs down in their ways after watching their kids being raped and murdered? I would really like to understand that logic. Where exactly do they see a chance now to end the status quo.

It's a blatant lie

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

The amount of people who learned literally no lessons from the War on Terror is blowing my mind.

 

[The Boy]

I don't know to which extent the Israeli population demands a proportional military response. But I've seen Israeli's say that attacking & occupying Gaza is not a wise choice for Israel.

So with that in mind, in an ideal world (I guess) Israel sticks to:

• Clearing any remaining Hamas fighters from Israeli territory.
• Secure the border.
• Try to do a hostage/prisoner swap with Hamas.
• Start thinking about how to solve this conflict for once and for all. Whatever policies they have cooked up in recent decades, it is going nowhere. Part of this should be to stop the illegal settlements into territories where Palestinians live. Don't evict Palestinians out of their homes.

These are laudable aims, but they'll never happen as for any Isaeli government this would be political suicide and like so many governments around the world, they would happily go to war rather than lose their power.

 

[neverdie]

Yeah this is rational. But Hamas needs to be damaged seriously otherwise they'll do it again, and worse. So it will require military action in Gaza. No other country would be expected to just passively respond to this, regardless of its past actions and complicity.

No other nation has been charged by all other nations to the extent Israel has for provoking exactly this kind of sick madness that now unfolds and doing nothing about it. Check the record (official UN).

Saying Hamas needs to be damaged seriously or they'll do it again. OK. Does Israel need to be damaged seriously lest they do it again? I'm asking becuase there is no distinction in terms of the terror inflicted upon Palestinian people in occupied regions and the rare but serious terror attacks then launched in response to that by Palestinian groups such as Hamas. That is, after this is over, how shall we hurt/damage Israel so that it can never do this again? Is that on your agenda?

 

[VorZakone]

That would make Hamas' barbarism successful. First of all what state would suffer that kind of terrorism against it's own people, renounce retaliation and start diplomatic talks? That's not an ideal world, that's a fairytale. It will be also a very dangerous world if terror organizations get the feeling that they can improve their positon with Stone Age methods. As hard as it sounds, Israel has no other option than to destroy Hamas now. US and every other military power would do the same without thinking twice.

I tend to disagree with this. I think Israel has to choose their battles wisely. Destroying Hamas by flattening Gaza may be a matter of winning the battle but losing the war.

Get your own house in order. Ensure you are in the morally right. Israel simply wants far too much. They have ignored international criticism.

The point I want to make is that when you are clearly in the morally right, and you're not committing terrible violence yourself, then no one who is sane will blame you when you still get attacked and destroy those responsible. As far as I'm concerned, task your intelligence services with finding the perpetrators, get Interpol involved, whatever.

Israel has to start somewhere in solving this conflict.

 

[owlo]

My post is not a troll.

Then the best way to try and describe the mood both in Israel and of diaspora Jews who support Israel is this:

Terrified, helpless, and humiliated, just like the people in Gaza. Everybody knows a victim, and everybody wants revenge. The air is seething. There is open talk of 'Kill them all.' They would rather kill them all in order to kill the terrorists, than do as you described.

The government are in a position they don't want to be in, and a chain of events has begun which isn't easily stopped. They've thrown years and decades of military doctrine out the window for it. No more low intensity conflict.This attack is already far more directed, intense, and lethal than anything since 1967. They people expect death, both soldiers and hostages, and expect the enemy to pay the price.

It's not a continuation of the conflict, it's something new. The US need to mediate now, and Biden probably isn't capable.

 

[JeffFromHK]

Two Chinese nationals, 10 Nepalese and 12 Thais killed in the attack by Hamas, with hands raised up (surrender posture). I wonder anyone and how can we justify this killing?

The classic "fight back of the oppressed against the oppressors" rhetoric seemingly doesn't apply. They obviously don't look Jewish

 

[VorZakone]

I tend to disagree with this. I think Israel has to choose their battles wisely. Destroying Hamas by flattening Gaza may be a matter of winning the battle but losing the war.

Get your own house in order. Ensure you are in the morally right. Israel simply wants far too much. They have ignored international criticism.

The point I want to make is that when you are clearly in the morally right, and you're not committing terrible violence yourself, then no one who is sane will blame you when you still get attacked and destroy those responsible. As far as I'm concerned, task your intelligence services with finding the perpetrators, get Interpol involved, whatever.

Israel has to start somewhere in solving this conflict.

In addition to this post of mine, there is an element of you yourself contributing to recruitment for terror organizations. As long as you're killing or oppressing people, there will be a recruitment stream of people willing to join terror organizations.

 

[The Corinthian]

Yes I do. But that's not the question I'm asking. Regardless of its crimes, Israel is still a country and it must protect its citizens. Letting Hamas get away with this is clearly not an option, nor would it be for any other country on earth.

I'm asking, how to do it while minimising civilian suffering.

How should Palestine protect its citizens?

How a Palestinian man with autism was killed by Israeli police
Eyad al-Halaq, a 31-year-old man with autism and the mental age of an eight-year-old, was on his way to his special needs school when he was shot and killed by Israeli police one year ago. His mother remembers that day.

Autistic Palestinian teen's killing casts spotlight on Israel tactics

Fulla Masalmeh was buried on her 16th birthday in a grave sealed with cement and marked by a single bunch of flowers.
Her family had planned a party that day, but instead said goodbye to their "wonderful and beautiful" daughter who had lived with the challenges of autism and an upbringing in poverty.
A day earlier, Fulla was killed by Israeli soldiers who fired multiple shots at the car she was in.

How should the US protect its American journalists?

Shireen Abu Akleh - Wikipedia

 

[e.cantona]

Hamas' goal is the destruction of Israel, not just the liberation of Palestine. That's a very important distinction. They aren't interested in coexistence, so their actions should always be seen in light of their ultimate goal.

They want radicalisation, Arab-Israeli relations to collapse and an all out war of religion. Pushing Israel to overreact and completely destroy any chance of normalisation with Arab countries would be a success for them. An all out war between all Arab nations and Israel (and the US inevitably) isn't something they want to avoid, but rather something they would like to see happen. Their strategy pretty much puts civilians in the firing line on purpose, all to serve a greater goal - the ultimate destruction of Israel and the rise of an Islamic Palestinian state in its place - at any cost.

This attack is notably different than previous attacks though. Far more brazen, brutal and extensive. If I were to speculate, I'd assume it's because of a combination of Saudi-Israeli relations normalising rapidly, Iran's interests currently aligning with Hamas' and "achieving" far more in the attack than they had actually believed possible. Right now their goal is probably to use the situation to turn as much of the Arab world as possible against Israel. I suspect they have grossly miscalculated the response they will see from key Arab states.

This is pretty much it. We know what Hamas wants. And we know what they would do if they had all power. They've told us and shown us again and again. The total destruction of Israel and it's people. We also know what Israel would do if they had all power, because that is close to what they have in this conflict. They've exhibited extreme caution when facing an enemy who's shown no caution. Hamas kills civilians, men, women and children, without any form of restraint, and uses their "own" people as human shields. And they do it precisely because they know Israel exercises extreme caution and won't kill civilians at random.

 

[Roane]

Reading an interesting interview with one of the organisers of the festival. Speaks about the attack by Hamas but some of his details are bit different to what seems to be the narrative being presented now.

In a nutshell he speaks about the festival and who organised it. Speaks of numbers attending and the age range (20-40). Further goes on to say plenty of police/security and many of the participants IDF.

Tells about the attack and how there was a fight between Hamas and the IDF participants and the police/security. Goes into detail of how his fellow organiser, IDF trained, killed some people with his bare hands etc.