Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[africanspur]

I disagree that she’s providing an objective point of view. I disagree that anybody in the Israeli or US government would seriously consider her objective. So she’s not calling on Israel to do anything. She’s fermenting hate through her following and support by pushing a narrative that justifies the terrorism happening as she posts.

She is a member of the legislature of the United States government. Her job is to represent her district of the United States, and the interests of the United States. The president decides foreign policy, not a house rep in a fringe conference.

Worth noting there’s been bipartisan criticism of her comments.

Can you outline the parts of what she said exactly that you disagree with? The majority of what she said is not that different to some of your own comments and viewpoints on this thread.

1) I grieve lives lost on both sides
2) She wants everyone to live a future without fear and with rights
3) The path to that includes lifting the blockade and not having an apartheid system
4) Thinking that you can just blockade/ create a system of apartheid and you will always be able to keep a lid on the pot as it were is a dangerous approach and probably not an accurate viewpoint
5) Nobody should live in fear of violence
6) As long as the USA essentially unconditionally supports Israel (rightly or wrongly), the takeaway message will be you can do whatever you want.

Other than perhaps point 6, this doesn't seem that different to what you've posted on this thread?

 

[calodo2003]

Their first destinations were IDF bases, where they attacked the soldiers whose work focuses on detecting such stuff. Once those soldiers were out of the way, it all became easier I guess.

They also drone attacked commo & detection nodes on the border while simultaneously breaching it, basically rendering the front line without eyes & no way to communicate such.

 

[Levi1]

That is the correct position to hold.

He's not equating the two, he just pointed out that the bad shit is happening to both sides, neither side is innocent in all of this

 

[owlo]

Sounds like you are equating the two. I suppose your post is good evidence for what I said, that no matter what, some people will never change their perspectives about this.

Imagine your brother and family are stuck in Gaza. They’ve no way out, no hope in life, and Israel oppresses and dominates them daily. All you hear is the atrocities Israel commit.

Then one day, some of the militants in Gaza cross the border and murder a bunch of them, strike the fear into them that you and your family have been feeling for a decade. You feel happy, though you shouldn’t, relief, the Enemy is getting a taste of their own medicine. You don’t see them as people, they are animals, oppressors, enablers of the regime that has fecked over your family. You can’t admit you’re happy and they deserved it, but thats what you think, that it was an inevitable cause of the pain they cause. You’re not celebrating dead babies or women as individuals, just the general concept of victory and terror.

Within 3 days, that oppressor state rears her ugly head with a vengeance not seen before. They will avenge each death ten fold, and they won’t give a feck about your civilians this time. Your family start to tell of the terror from the air strikes, how scared they are, that they are punishing you for their own oppression, and you are helpless. Your family have no way out, no medicine, little food. You’re terrified.

And this is all Israels fault.

you wouldn’t have a balanced view either. Don’t expect people to be balanced and fair.

 

[Halftrack]

Long time reader @israeli_citizen asked if I could post something on behalf of him, and I figured I'd give a helping hand, so here goes:

"I am an Israeli who lives 7 km from Gaza. I read through the messages, and it is so painful to see how much ignorance people have about our conflicts with the Palestinians.

Let's talk facts:
1) In 1948, Israel was established, and right away, all arab nations declared war on Israel, led by SS General Amin Hussini.

2) Before 1948, The British were the leaders, and before them, the Turkish (Otman), Byzantine Empire, Roman etc etc etc.

In this land's history- only the Jews were a constant presence. "Next year in Jerusalem" was our prayer.
The Palestinians of today don't have any history. They cannot even pronounce their name (they don't have P in the alphabet, so they say "Balestine." The British Empire gave its name when it ruled here.

3) The Fatah was established in 1964, 3 years before the Six Days War.

4) Israel apartheid- sure. apartheid where you have Knesset members, Arabs learn for free (and rightly so), have doctors, supreme court judges etc

I am working as a civil engineer, in this field almost 100% of the workers in construction sites are Arabs, and we have an excellent connection between us.
BUT- the leaders Palestine, including abu mazen, the only figure on earth with a doctorate for holocaust denial, all of them want to perish us.
They are paying for terrorists who murder babies while they are sleeping (the more you murder the more you get).

Israeli settlements- it is true there are some radical. the radicals are by far less than 0.1% of the population in Israel.

Every 4-5 years, an Israeli maniac murders Palestinians. Those guys get killed or spend the rest of their lives in Israeli prison, while the government of the Palestinians encourages this behavior and call streets after them

And the last thing about Gaza- to compare Israeli civilians who murdered in ISIS style to children in Gaza who are the casualties of the ongoing war is an evil comparison, like blaming American for German children murder in Nazi-Germany era.

Until the Palestinians will not accept Israel and keep fight with israel, they will stay in their mud. If the Arabs will drop their weapons, there will not be war, but if Israel drops their weapons, there will be no Israel"

I can see why they asked someone else to post it

 

[do.ob]

Can you outline the parts of what she said exactly that you disagree with? The majority of what she said is not that different to some of your own comments and viewpoints on this thread.

1) I grieve lives lost on both sides
2) She wants everyone to live a future without fear and with rights
3) The path to that includes lifting the blockade and not having an apartheid system
4) Thinking that you can just blockade/ create a system of apartheid and you will always be able to keep a lid on the pot as it were is a dangerous approach and probably not an accurate viewpoint
5) Nobody should live in fear of violence
6) As long as the USA essentially unconditionally supports Israel (rightly or wrongly), the takeaway message will be you can do whatever you want.

Other than perhaps point 6, this doesn't seem that different to what you've posted on this thread?

What's her stance on Hamas in that statement?

 

[owlo]

They also drone attacked commo & detection nodes on the border while simultaneously breaching it, basically rendering the front line without eyes & no way to communicate such.

It was quite impressive really. They definitely had a couple of actual trained combat units there alongside all the terrorists. I wonder how many who were captured/killed were from those units, or if they slunk away and let the terrorists do their thing after breaching.

(did you see the possible 1SFOD-D plane landing Today?)

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

The Palestinians of today don't have any history.

You can stop reading after that part.

 

[africanspur]

Long time reader @israeli_citizen asked if I could post something on behalf of him, and I figured I'd give a helping hand, so here goes:

"I am an Israeli who lives 7 km from Gaza. I read through the messages, and it is so painful to see how much ignorance people have about our conflicts with the Palestinians.

Let's talk facts:
1) In 1948, Israel was established, and right away, all arab nations declared war on Israel, led by SS General Amin Hussini.

2) Before 1948, The British were the leaders, and before them, the Turkish (Otman), Byzantine Empire, Roman etc etc etc.

In this land's history- only the Jews were a constant presence. "Next year in Jerusalem" was our prayer.
The Palestinians of today don't have any history. They cannot even pronounce their name (they don't have P in the alphabet, so they say "Balestine." The British Empire gave its name when it ruled here.

3) The Fatah was established in 1964, 3 years before the Six Days War.

4) Israel apartheid- sure. apartheid where you have Knesset members, Arabs learn for free (and rightly so), have doctors, supreme court judges etc

I am working as a civil engineer, in this field almost 100% of the workers in construction sites are Arabs, and we have an excellent connection between us.
BUT- the leaders Palestine, including abu mazen, the only figure on earth with a doctorate for holocaust denial, all of them want to perish us.
They are paying for terrorists who murder babies while they are sleeping (the more you murder the more you get).

Israeli settlements- it is true there are some radical. the radicals are by far less than 0.1% of the population in Israel.

Every 4-5 years, an Israeli maniac murders Palestinians. Those guys get killed or spend the rest of their lives in Israeli prison, while the government of the Palestinians encourages this behavior and call streets after them

And the last thing about Gaza- to compare Israeli civilians who murdered in ISIS style to children in Gaza who are the casualties of the ongoing war is an evil comparison, like blaming American for German children murder in Nazi-Germany era.

Until the Palestinians will not accept Israel and keep fight with israel, they will stay in their mud. If the Arabs will drop their weapons, there will not be war, but if Israel drops their weapons, there will be no Israel"

When you yourself are a radical and don't recognise that, its no wonder that you think the Israeli population, with currently its most right wing and extreme government in history, only has 0.1% radicals.

Awful post. Though the Balestine part did make me laugh. Imagine living that close to your Arab neighbours and having an excellent conncection to them and not understanding that perhaps their nationality name isn't based on an external language with a totally different alphabet....

 

[zaafi]

There is just no way this is going to end well for the people in Gaza, sadly. Hamas truly are a bunch of vile animals.

 

[calodo2003]

It was quite impressive really. They definitely had a couple of actual trained combat units there alongside all the terrorists. I wonder how many who were captured/killed were from those units, or if they slunk away and let the terrorists do their thing after breaching.

(did you see the possible 1SFOD-D plane landing Today?)

It was a master stroke. Drones are changing battlefield tactics in ways not seen since perhaps the Gatling gun.

Did not see the plane.

 

[Levi1]

He's not equating the two, he just pointed out that the bad shit is happening to both sides, neither side is innocent in all of this

Have you concluded from this week's events that Israel should have more open borders, to enable economic progress and less suffering in Gaza?

 

[owlo]

Can you outline the parts of what she said exactly that you disagree with? The majority of what she said is not that different to some of your own comments and viewpoints on this thread.

1) I grieve lives lost on both sides
2) She wants everyone to live a future without fear and with rights
3) The path to that includes lifting the blockade and not having an apartheid system
4) Thinking that you can just blockade/ create a system of apartheid and you will always be able to keep a lid on the pot as it were is a dangerous approach and probably not an accurate viewpoint
5) Nobody should live in fear of violence
6) As long as the USA essentially unconditionally supports Israel (rightly or wrongly), the takeaway message will be you can do whatever you want.

Other than perhaps point 6, this doesn't seem that different to what you've posted on this thread?

It’s the way she structured it, that pissed me off personally. She attributed no time or energy to the Hamas atrocities, and instead focused on bashing Israel. You have to take the time of her post into consideration too. It was on 8th when it was still very much a live terror situation, and she is one of the few Americans who may actually have had some sway on hamas regarding hostages or leaving.

To me she did a trump at the capitol post, barely acknowledging the terror whilst stating every reason and justification for it. Along with a vague half hearted statement she refrerred Israeli deaths. That and her continued flying of the Palestinia flag inside the capitol building is to me, no bueno. she refused to even call them terrorists.

Im fine with anyone disagreeing or thinking she’s honourable: it’s a personal opinion. She sounded no different than some of the more extreme lads on here.

(ps. I don’t think us support should be unconditional, though I think we’re possibly past the point of a solution.)

 

[Halftrack]

Have you concluded from this week's events that Israel should have more open borders, to enable economic progress and less suffering in Gaza?

Brutal oppression is clearly working a treat for you.

 

[nickm]

If the USA get involved with bombing or a ground invasion, then WW3 is here.

Nah.

 

[VorZakone]

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[owlo]

It was a master stroke. Drones are changing battlefield tactics in ways not seen since perhaps the Gatling gun.

Did not see the plane.

this is why I’m terrified of a ground invasion as opposed to an incursion to slap them. Israel underestimate them as animals but they are clearly learning modern urban warfare and are competent. There’s zero ISR and I feel the IDF will be walking into a massacre,

 

[JPRouve]

Sounds like you are equating the two. I suppose your post is good evidence for what I said, that no matter what, some people will never change their perspectives about this.

You don't think that the yearly killing, stealing of land and freedom of civilians isn't comparable even when the death toll is also way higher on the palestinian side?

In theory it should be very easy to recognize that Hamas are terrorists, they are a menace to everyone and deserve to be exterminated but it's also easy to recognize that Israel(led by the Likud) is on the evil side of things potentially to their detriment.

Here you have an example of it being recognized by intelligence members and there is an other warning that I can't find from a chief of intelligence who warned politicians against encouraging and supporting land theft and daily violence against palestinians because it would eventually lead to a violent response. Which was received by claims that the left took control of Intelligence services.

Edit: The second one was Shin Bet's cheifs who said that Jewish terror was fueling palestinian terror.

 

[nickm]

Being a democracy doesn't make the bombs you drop on civillians any better, doesn't make the children you shoot dead any less human and doesn't make the land you occupy any less illegal.

Palestinian freedom fighters are defending their homeland against an occupying force using military means - under international law it is legitimate.

You knowledge of international law is as broken as your sense of morality.

 

[africanspur]

What's her stance on Hamas in that statement?

She doesn't mention Hamas by name but she repeatedly says she grieves lives lost and she wants everyone to live a life without fear or violence.

So considering Hamas is a violent murderous organisation, do you think its a positive one?

 

[Drizzle]

And this is all Israels fault.

Come on. Israel may be to blame for much of this, but to assign no agency or fault to the Palestinian side is just insane. They've not exactly been great partners for peace. Fatah, PLO, PA, Hamas, all complete failures, full of corruption, oppression, greed and a tendency towards fascist death cultism.

It's just so stupid to blame one side for this. It's not football, it's extremely complex. History, geopolitics, national and ethnic identities, superpower proxy games, etc.

 

[VorZakone]

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[Levi1]

Brutal oppression is clearly working a treat for you.

You don't think that the yearly killing, stealing of land and freedom of civilians isn't comparable even when the death toll is also way higher on the palestinian side?

In theory it should be very easy to recognize that Hamas are terrorists, they are a menace to everyone and deserve to be exterminated but it's also easy to recognize that Israel(led by the Likud) is on the evil side of things potentially to their detriment.

Here you have an example of it being recognized by intelligence members and there is an other warning that I can't find from a chief of intelligence who warned politicians against encouraging and supporting land theft and daily violence against palestinians because it would eventually lead to a violent response. Which was received by claims that the left took control of Intelligence services.

You're talking about land theft but Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza, uprooting many Israeli civilians in the process almost 20 years ago, in response to which the Palestinian people democratically elected Hamas. Similarly, the second Intifadeh (almost daily terrorist explosions on busses and the like that lasted for several years), which was the proximate cause of most of Israel's policies on closed borders, was a Jihad fought principally for religious reasons. So its clear that this cycle of violence begins with Israel's very existence.

I'm not saying that Israel hasn't made mistakes along the way, but they are errors of action, not conscience, and caused by its desire to protect itself. Of course its horrific if even one civilian is killed in Gaza, much less hundreds, but those deaths typically result from the Hamas method of fighting inside cities. Not so, the Palestinian violence which is caused by hatred. You see it in the results, with Hamas executing babies, rockets sprayed into cities without specific targets. Hamas has never bothered with targeting Israel's military.

 

[do.ob]

She doesn't mention Hamas by name but she repeatedly says she grieves lives lost and she wants everyone to live a life without fear or violence.

So considering Hamas is a violent murderous organisation, do you think its a positive one?

Well the bolded is your assessment, I don't know if it's her's, because unfortunately she forgot to mention the group that brought endless suffering on Palestinians, just so they could massacre some people. Unlucky.

 

[VorZakone]

Perhaps not all of Hamas leadership was aware of the attack.

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[africanspur]

You're talking about land theft but Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza, uprooting many Israeli civilians in the process almost 20 years ago, in response to which the Palestinian people democratically elected Hamas. Similarly, the second Intifadeh (almost daily terrorist explosions on busses and the like that lasted for several years), which was the proximate cause of most of Israel's policies on closed borders, was a Jihad fought principally for religious reasons. So its clear that this cycle of violence begins with Israel's very existence.

I'm not saying that Israel hasn't made mistakes along the way, but they are errors of action, not conscience, and caused by its desire to protect itself. Of course its horrific if even one civilian is killed in Gaza, much less hundreds, but those deaths typically result from the Hamas method of fighting inside cities. Not so, the Palestinian violence which is caused by hatred. You see it in the results, with Hamas executing babies, rockets sprayed into cities without specific targets. Hamas has never bothered with targeting Israel's military.

How are settlements done out of a desire to protect itself?

 

[MDFC Manager]

Awful post. Though the Balestine part did make me laugh. Imagine living that close to your Arab neighbours and having an excellent conncection to them and not understanding that perhaps their nationality name isn't based on an external language with a totally different alphabet....

That bit was absolutely hilarious to be honest

 

[JPRouve]

You're talking about land theft but Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza, uprooting many Israeli civilians in the process almost 20 years ago, in response to which the Palestinian people democratically elected Hamas. Similarly, the second Intifadeh (almost daily terrorist explosions on busses and the like that lasted for several years), which was the proximate cause of most of Israel's policies on closed borders, was a Jihad fought principally for religious reasons. So its clear that this cycle of violence begins with Israel's very existence.

I'm not saying that Israel hasn't made mistakes along the way, but they are errors of action, not conscience, and caused by its desire to protect itself. Of course its horrific if even one civilian is killed in Gaza, much less hundreds, but those deaths typically result from the Hamas method of fighting inside cities. Not so, the Palestinian violence which is caused by hatred. You see it in the results, with Hamas executing babies, rockets sprayed into cities without specific targets. Hamas has never bothered with targeting Israel's military.

I'm talking about the same thing a former Mossad and the current Shin Bet chiefs are talking about. Now maybe they are wrong and you are right but keep in mind that your view is shared and promoted by the Israeli extreme right.

 

[owlo]

Come on. Israel may be to blame for much of this, but to assign no agency or fault to the Palestinian side is just insane. They've not exactly been great partners for peace. Fatah, PLO, PA, Hamas, all complete failures, full of corruption, oppression, greed and a tendency towards fascist death cultism.

It's just so stupid to blame one side for this. It's not football, it's extremely complex. History, geopolitics, national and ethnic identities, superpower proxy games, etc.

Thats not my view, I’m explaining(or trying) to him the emotions of some of the people in the thread, and why those emotions are rational. In the same way I could write a post explaining why @Levi1or @zaafi have completely rational views. A lot of the stuff you mention doesn’t register to those involved. Scroobius Pip - Angles

I am pro Israel personally to a large degree. Though against much of the maximalism. The main reason I am against the reaction is I believe the cost to life is too high, and that Israel are being reckless.

 

[africanspur]

It’s the way she structured it, that pissed me off personally. She attributed no time or energy to the Hamas atrocities, and instead focused on bashing Israel. You have to take the time of her post into consideration too. It was on 8th when it was still very much a live terror situation, and she is one of the few Americans who may actually have had some sway on hamas regarding hostages or leaving.

To me she did a trump at the capitol post, barely acknowledging the terror whilst stating every reason and justification for it. Along with a vague half hearted statement she refrerred Israeli deaths. That and her continued flying of the Palestinia flag inside the capitol building is to me, no bueno. she refused to even call them terrorists.

Im fine with anyone disagreeing or thinking she’s honourable: it’s a personal opinion. She sounded no different than some of the more extreme lads on here.

(ps. I don’t think us support should be unconditional, though I think we’re possibly past the point of a solution.)

If there was one Jewish representative in Congress, Israel were committing atrocities and someone suggested that they potentially had some sway over Israel, what would you say? Or think?

I'm never going to agree with attempts to paint the Palestinian flag as a terrorist one that should be taken down whenever things flare, just as I'm sure people won't be taking Israeli flags down in a month when they've flattened large parts of Gaza.


Thought this was an interesting interview.

 

[Red in STL]

Have you concluded from this week's events that Israel should have more open borders, to enable economic progress and less suffering in Gaza?

I haven't concluded anything, both sides have and are committing bad shit to innocent people and in some cases not so innocent people, all I do know is that neither side can claim they are blameless

 

[nickm]

So its clear that this cycle of violence begins with Israel's very existence.

I certainly get the impression many posters on here have a problem with Israel's existence.

 

[VorZakone]

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[africanspur]

Well the bolded is your assessment, I don't know if it's her's, because unfortunately she forgot to mention the group that brought endless suffering on Palestinians, just so they could massacre some people. Unlucky.

How is it my assessment? Those Jewish lives didn't just take themselves and that is the event which precipitated her comments, talking about grieving lives lost.

 

[owlo]

If there was one Jewish representative in Congress, Israel were committing atrocities and someone suggested that they potentially had some sway over Israel, what would you say? Or think?

I'm never going to agree with attempts to paint the Palestinian flag as a terrorist one that should be taken down whenever things flare, just as I'm sure people won't be taking Israeli flags down in a month when they've flattened large parts of Gaza.


Thought this was an interesting interview.

The senate majority leader is Jewish. As the most senior Jew Id hope he is in private urging restraint and letting the Israelis know that the United states expects it.

That said, it seems a bit complicated currently as the United States policy determined by the president, seems to be not to request restraint, as the terrorism is too egregious. That’s on the president. Were i president, I would request it.

I don’t think anybody should be flying Israeli flags inside the capitol either.

 

[JPRouve]

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@Raoul Those are still supported or maintained by Iran?

 

[Ibi Dreams]

You're talking about land theft but Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza, uprooting many Israeli civilians in the process almost 20 years ago, in response to which the Palestinian people democratically elected Hamas.

Gaza is still de facto occupied by Israel according to the UN. Israel still controls what goes in, out and on in Gaza. It is by no means a free Palestinian area

 

[RedTiger]

China could not care less

I think you'd suprised.

 

[VorZakone]

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[do.ob]

How is it my assessment? Those Jewish lives didn't just take themselves and that is the event which precipitated her comments, talking about grieving lives lost.

For starters she didn't call it murders, she used the word resistance.