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[do.ob]

This statement by Berlin Culture Workers for Palestine was interesting in general but I think this part is relevant to the discussions in the last page:

"German post-reunification "remembrance culture" (Erinnerungskultur)—the state campaign to address Germany's mass slaughter of the Jews—has taken a stunning contemporary form. This state-sponsored attempt to banish fascism and present Germany as a special haven for Jewish cultural life has, in a historical paradox, hardened into another form of national chauvinism. That Palestinians must be patrolled and censured for their supposed anti-Semitism by the German state testifies to the perversity that now drives this national project: having committed genocide has become a claim to moral authority. This fiercely narrow interpretation of "remembrance culture" has also produced the fantasy that anti-Semitism has been largely defeated among Germans; despite the fact that white Germans are responsible for 83% of antisemitic hate crimes, the real threat today is supposedly "imported anti-Semitism," the fault of foreigners, especially Arabs."

There's also a contrasting interview with Berlin Neukölln's (the district where most of these videos are taken) integration comissioner.

https://www.spiegel.de/internationa...orists-a-f7c73040-7be1-4509-9150-810266818f49

Also who are "Berlin Culture Workers for Palestine" exactly? I struggle to find more about them than that blog post on google.

 

[Mike Smalling]

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Absolute fecking ghoul. Disgusting comments.

 

[Kaos]

I mean he is correct.

Where were the marches in solidarity with Iranian people butched by their Islamic nut job government for not wearing the hijab?

Where are the marches against China for rounding up 1m Uygher Muslims and slamming them in Concentration camps?

Why is Israel treated to a different standard to China and Iran? We know why, but you can't say it here.

Because unlike China and Iran, Israel are considered an ally to the West? We aren't having our politicians line up to defend those regimes and say they have a right to defend themselves. Its hardly difficult. And there were large protests for all of those. You just hadn't noticed because you likely didn't care.

But please tell us the real reason, no one is censoring you here.

 

[HTG]

This statement by Berlin Culture Workers for Palestine was interesting in general but I think this part is relevant to the discussions in the last page:

"German post-reunification "remembrance culture" (Erinnerungskultur)—the state campaign to address Germany's mass slaughter of the Jews—has taken a stunning contemporary form. This state-sponsored attempt to banish fascism and present Germany as a special haven for Jewish cultural life has, in a historical paradox, hardened into another form of national chauvinism. That Palestinians must be patrolled and censured for their supposed anti-Semitism by the German state testifies to the perversity that now drives this national project: having committed genocide has become a claim to moral authority. This fiercely narrow interpretation of "remembrance culture" has also produced the fantasy that anti-Semitism has been largely defeated among Germans; despite the fact that white Germans are responsible for 83% of antisemitic hate crimes, the real threat today is supposedly "imported anti-Semitism," the fault of foreigners, especially Arabs."

I don’t agree with the statement except for this part here:
produced the fantasy that anti-Semitism has been largely defeated among Germans; despite the fact that white Germans are responsible for 83% of antisemitic hate crimes, the real threat today is supposedly "imported anti-Semitism," the fault of foreigners, especially Arabs."

This is, sadly, true. We just had a Bavarian politician climb in the polls because it was discovered that he created heavily antisemitic flyers when he was young. There definitely is a tendency to blame antisemitism on muslimic immigrants in order to absolve white Christian Germans from antisemitism. Which, very sadly, perfectly aligns with strong anti-Muslim sentiments of the very same group.
But I believe this is starting to get a bit off topic now.

 

[SilentWitness]

Where were the marches in solidarity with Iranian people butched by their Islamic nut job government for not wearing the hijab?

Where are the marches against China for rounding up 1m Uygher Muslims and slamming them in Concentration camps?

Why is Israel treated to a different standard to China and Iran? We know why, but you can't say it here.

People protested and marched in regards to both of those in London and in many other cities around the world.

 

[Ainu]

I don't know, they have already censored the other pro-Israeli voices. So I guess I am next.


First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me

Really struggling to see what point you're trying to make here.

 

[SilentWitness]

No where near the scale of what we have seen in the last 2 weeks and that was in the wake (in fact 1 day after) the most brutal day for Jews since the Holocaust.

You can attribute that to many factors but not anti-semitism which is what you are trying really hard to apply consistently in this thread.

 

[jadaba]

Where were the marches in solidarity with Iranian people butched by their Islamic nut job government for not wearing the hijab?

Where are the marches against China for rounding up 1m Uygher Muslims and slamming them in Concentration camps?

Why is Israel treated to a different standard to China and Iran? We know why, but you can't say it here.

There were protests of solidarity all over the world. Take Berlin, where 40,000 were marching in solidarity with Iranian women (and also feel free to compare it to the restrictions on protesting in support of Palestine currently enforced in Berlin).

As others have noted, Iran and China are not considered allies of western states, and its fair to expect inhabitants of western states to protest their government's role in explicitly supporting the actions of Israel, as opposed to the same states' explicit condemnation of Iran and China.

 

[Ainu]

the faux outrage and virtue signalling in here is laughable. Hamas has you under the thumb of their propaganda and you drink it up.

bookmark this.

when they finally do hit back and Israel suffers a day of horrific loss of life. People across Western cities will take to the streets in solidarity, support and celebration. There will be no remorse, nor sympathy for any Jew that dies in this conflict. They will scream "Alluhu Akbar" and "intifada".

You will see their true colours as they march through the streets of London, Birmingham and Manchester. You will see their true colours when they rip down the LGBT flag.

This is not about land. It is about race.

It is about their quest to remove all Jewish life from the Middle East.

You have completely lost the plot. Better for everyone involved and your own sanity and mental health that you take a long break from this thread. Take a couple of steps back and look at your own posts.

 

[owlo]

Is it just me who finds the constant invoking of the Holocaust a tad bit tasteless?

No.

The only valid and relevant comparison I see, is that many in Israel currently feel this was is existential, and that there is no option except winning to guarantee safety.

 

[nickm]

Piers remains a tool even during a massacre. So he wants people to condemn violent resistance from a displaced, occupied and besieged people rather than the perpetual violence of the occupier. That's like condemning a slave revolt because some in the masters quarters have died during the clash, while you maintain support for the slave owner and the entire institution. Piers and those like him and worse, are the disgusting live manifestation of the dystopian outcome and indocrination from consumption and distribution of the empire's propaganda.

Yeah, right on man.

 

[nickm]

Just goes to show you dont have to be smart to be the president of the US of A or perhaps he is being disingenious to legitimise Israel's war crime.

Or perhaps he is wise not to swallow numbers from the psychos at Hamas uncritically.

 

[owlo]

China don't want a bombed Taiwan, they want a peaceful unification, or nothing.

If they have to bomb the shit out of it, it's just a pcs of rubble.

But hey, you got to create a big bad China as the next "Threat to Freedom and Democrazy"

They want a “peaceful unification” in the same way that Israel want one in East Jerusalem or the West Bank. And if they don’t get one, they will eventually invade. There’s no creating a big bad china, they are big and bad. The fact they even want a “peaceful unification” of essentially a sovereign state they have no claim to, shows they are indeed big and bad.

From the ammunition stocks point of view, the US are quite stretched at the moment. Not that they couldn't ramp it up if needs be, but they'd rather avoid that. Simultaneously having two different war theaters so far away from each other where they have a dog in each race, with a third even further away eventually opening, isn't really ideal. But you nailed it in my opinion, not much I can object to.

Yeah, for me Taiwan is a foregone conclusion, it's only a matter of time.

Luckily they mainly need different ammo types. (For how the US would fight Iranian proxies) They are low on 155mm shells (for the howitzers/artillery) though. Think it was Lara Seligman who got them to implicitly admit that. Looks like I was a little ahead of the curve on the Iran comments, their proxies are continuing to ramp up random provocations in the region against the US, yesterday was Syria, today is Iraq, and it’s the constant prod prod. I think Biden is right to show restraint, but it can’t last forever. Eventually one of those rockets or drones will land and US troops will die. At that point Gaza might become a side note. They need to get the diplomacy going with Iran to say STOP now. Either that, or Iran really is losing control of the proxies and we have another problem.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Or perhaps he is wise not to swallow numbers from the psychos at Hamas uncritically.

The uncritical person here is you. This ridiculous talking point about 'fake numbers' has been pushed heavily in the last 3-4 days and you bought it hook, line, and sinker.

 

[nickm]

The uncritical person here is you. This ridiculous talking point about 'fake numbers' has been pushed heavily in the last 3-4 days and you bought it hook, line, and sinker.

I've been talking about it since before it became a talking point. I've not bought anything. I never said they were fake, only that the source was an important consideration. Why you think the US president would rush to quote Hama's numbers, is more a sign of your credulity than mine.

 

[Halftrack]

Or perhaps he is wise not to swallow numbers from the psychos at Hamas uncritically.

It's been pointed out before in this thread, but the casualty numbers published by Hamas are generally reliable.

They have claimed killed Hamas fighters as civilians before, and are likely doing it now as well, but there's no reason to doubt to the total number of people killed, nor the number of children.

 

[2mufc0]

Don't know about Iran but there were worldwide marches for the Uyghers.

In fact HT, one of the groups who did a march in London etc actually organised a March for the Uyghers too.

So Israel isn't treated any different when they commit atrocities

There were plenty of anti Iranian regime protests too...

The guy sounds really unhinged, think he needs a break from the thread.

 

[nickm]

It's been pointed out before in this thread, but the casualty numbers published by Hamas are generally reliable.

They have claimed killed Hamas fighters as civilians before, and are likely doing it now as well, but there's no reason to doubt to the total number of people killed, nor the number of children.

Is this before or after the "500 people killed" in the hospital explosion?

Of course there is a reason to doubt, they are in the middle of a war. Numbers are weapons too.

Treat such numbers sceptically until they can be independently verified. And that includes the israeli side too.

 

[africanspur]

Is this before or after the "500 people killed" in the hospital explosion?

Of course there is a reason to doubt, they are in the middle of a war. Numbers are weapons too.

Treat such numbers sceptically until they can be independently verified. And that includes the israeli side too.

So how many do you think are dead so far?

And does that mean you doubt the 1400 killed in the Israeli side too?

 

[nickm]

So how many do you think are dead so far?

And does that mean you doubt the 1400 killed in the Israeli side too?

I don't know, do you?

But I will say the Israeli numbers are likely to be more immediately verifiable.

 

[Ainu]

Is before or after the "500 people killed" in the hospital explosion?

Of course there is a reason to doubt, they are in the middle of a war. Numbers are weapons too.

Treat such numbers sceptically until they can be verified.

I get not wanting to just take the numbers at face value and suspecting some measure of overestimation, the problem is that this very quickly turns into a dismissive attitude towards the number of casualties, and that's a dangerous road to go down. The scale of the loss of civilian life is devastating, that much is clear.

 

[The Corinthian]

I don't know, do you?

But I will say the Israeli numbers are likely to be more immediately verifiable.

Based on what? A few of their claims have already been retracted.

 

[nickm]

I get not wanting to just take the numbers at face value and suspecting some measure of overestimation, the problem is that this very quickly turns into a dismissive attitude towards the number of casualties, and that's a dangerous road to go down. The scale of the loss of civilian life is devastating, that much is clear.

I can go along with that. Hamas tactics here also drive those casualty numbers though.

 

[nickm]

Based on what? A few of their claims have already been retracted.

Well done for noticing what verifiable means.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

I can go along with that. Hamas tactics here also drive those casualty numbers though.

Hamas has been using the ray gun machine from Honey I Shrunk the Kids to hide their militants inside Palestinian children.

 

[The Corinthian]

Well done for noticing what verifiable means.

You’re saying that it’s more likely to be verifiable.
I’m asking based on what.

 

[That_Bloke]

I think it's absurd to think it can be as black and white as that.

It's absurd to establish a double standard and think that it will work. Especially when you claim to be a democracy.

Same law for everyone or you're in trouble.

 

[Halftrack]

Is this before or after the "500 people killed" in the hospital explosion?

Of course there is a reason to doubt, they are in the middle of a war. Numbers are weapons too.

Treat such numbers sceptically until they can be independently verified. And that includes the israeli side too.

You've been questioning the numbers on the basis that they come from Hamas, and I'm telling you that they don't have a history of inflating those numbers, which is why people are willing to believe them.

If Hamas says 3000 children have been killed, then 3000 children have in all likelihood been killed.

 

[Drainy]

Genocide. Reading all the stories on the BBC live. Harrowing.

I wouldn't even begin to respond to anyone that questions the Palestinian death toll. Degrading all these deaths.. most of them kids.. to serve Israeli propaganda which has no bottom to the depths that it can sink too.. I would ban anyone parroting that on the spot. But such is the weaponisation of Israeli PR.. can't even be killed without someone questioning if you really died. Disgusting. And they'll keep hammering the point until it becomes part of the narrative too. When the enemy are evil monsters, there's no depths to the things you can attribute to them. Makes me sick.

If the last part of this post meant to be ironic?

 

[Ekkie Thump]

But I will say the Israeli numbers are likely to be more immediately verifiable.

I think that's true, but mainly because Israel are picking up the pieces in relative peace whereas Gaza is under siege, pulverised and half its population displaced. Information gathering's likely somewhat disrupted.

I'd also agree that Hamas has incentive to inflate figures. Should be said, though, that last time thousands died in war (2014), Hamas, UN and Israeli figures for the Gazan dead were pretty close (2,310; 2,251; 2,125 respectively). They did differ in the proportion of civilian/combatant though. Basically a lot more fighting age men were killed than should be the case in indiscriminate attacks.

 

[MadMike]

I doubt the Palestinian cause for resistance is to invade, occupy and ethnic cleanse Jews. That's the victim blaming double speak perfected by the media echo chamber we are inundated with. Palestinians lived with Jews harmoniously before Zionists invaded and then set up an apartheid Jewish state.

To be completely frank here, I literally couldn't care less what you doubt. If you can't do a quick google and find search out about Hamas, their charter and their mission... then I've no interest to spoon feed it to you.

Not supporting Hamas is a very easy bar to clear. If you can't do that, there's not much to talk about.

 

[Raoul]

I think that's true, but mainly because Israel are picking up the pieces in relative peace whereas Gaza is under siege, pulverised and half its population displaced. Information gathering's likely somewhat disrupted.

I'd also agree that Hamas has incentive to inflate figures. Should be said, though, that last time thousands died in war (2014), Hamas, UN and Israeli figures for the Gazan dead were pretty close (2,310; 2,251; 2,125 respectively). They did differ in the proportion of civilian/combatant though. Basically a lot more fighting age men were killed than should be the case in indiscriminate attacks.

A good data point to consider. Numbers from both sides seem to be in the same ball park, therefore both the IDF and Hamas' numbers should be fair to cite, either independently or where available, alongside one another.

 

[Ainu]

A good data point to consider. Numbers from both sides seem to be in the same ball park, therefore both the IDF and Hamas' numbers should be fair to cite, either independently or where available, alongside one another.

Agreed, which is why it is really not helpful that someone like Biden is publicly doubting the number coming out of Gaza. It's dangerously irresponsible.

 

[padzilla]

Agreed, which is why it is really not helpful that someone like Biden is publicly doubting the number coming out of Gaza. It's dangerously irresponsible.

There must be an election soon?

 

[RedTiger]

Where were the marches in solidarity with Iranian people butched by their Islamic nut job government for not wearing the hijab?

Where are the marches against China for rounding up 1m Uygher Muslims and slamming them in Concentration camps?

Why is Israel treated to a different standard to China and Iran? We know why, but you can't say it here.

As many people over the years have said, this conflict is not comparable to other conflicts.

In regards to Iran, they are sanctioned up to their eyeballs and technically they're doing it to their own citizens while Israel doesn't see Palestinians as human let alone as citizens.

China as bad as they are have moved onto investing and developing Xinjiang by pumping billions into infrastructure, jobs and quality of life. I've yet to see Israel spend their own money on developing gaza or the west bank for the benefit of Palestinians.

 

[Idxomer]

The geriatric US president is doing great in his role as a minister of Israeli propaganda.

 

[africanspur]

I don't know, do you?

But I will say the Israeli numbers are likely to be more immediately verifiable.

You just said that goes for the Israeli side too.

I don't know either, no. But in lieu of hard evidence to the contrary, I'm generally going to take the figures at relatively face value.

It's dangerous to do otherwise. It's also no coincidence that people downplaying the figures are almost always so entrenched on one side that their viewpoint is often clouded by something akin to hatred. It's dehumanising. I was talking to someone last week who was disputing the numbers of Israeli dead and that Hamas had killed any children at all. I found it vile. What you're doing is little different.

Moreover, what point are you even trying to make? If it's 3k killed, rather than 5k. What does that actually change for you?

 

[Ainu]

There must be an election soon?

Goes without saying he's got his own agenda, I'm just referring back to it because that was what kicked off this discussion.

 

[Raoul]

Agreed, which is why it is really not helpful that someone like Biden is publicly doubting the number coming out of Gaza. It's dangerously irresponsible.

He's obviously not going to believe anything Hamas says, at least not publicly. What is disconcerting is that whatever the numbers are in the present, they are going to skyrocket once the actual invasion starts. I believe several of the hospitals have run out of electricity/generator fuel, which means everything from ventilators to incubators won't work, and with all the newly wounded needing treatment, hospitals will quickly turn into morgues.

 

[Idxomer]

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