Would any City player get into a combined United-City all time XI?

[Fortitude]

Now clearly Best quantum-leaping from 1967 into the start of a City match today would be a compatibility problem.

But my take is that Best playing more freely then was as much a product of his time, as it was a reflection of the man. This is a time when there was far less - if any - patterned play on the training ground, the sort of which changed Grealish from freestyle individualist at Villa to team cog at City. Also a time when there was no real and comparable appreciation for the value of tactical systems and positioning which didn’t come until the 70s and beyond. So Best goes out onto the park with a different tactical view in his head then, than he would today.

If Pep could call upon this pool of legends all at their peaks and work with them for a few weeks, I think Best is one who could make the transition better than others. Some would struggle with the short-game demands. But Best is one of the greatest dribblers of all time and the one thing Pep prizes in his wingers is their 1v1 ability. Beyond that all he’d ask from Best is plenty of graft (which he generally had) and a wide starting position (which he’d pick up quickly on the training ground or watching a couple of games). Recognising his other-worldly talent and personality, over time his role might evolve like Messi’s did, from the traditional wide gig, to a false 9 with the freedom to do what he wanted.

My point with both Ronaldo and Best is them having to buy into being automaton in terms of what Pep demands instead of the freedom of expression they both thrived in where they were allowed to do their thing with no reprimand.

Messi's thing; Ronaldinho's thing or De Bruyne's thing are all extremely conducive to the team itself as all of them are all about aiding others whenever they could/can. They're not soloists of the same ilk as the aforementioned, so you can see how they would be reserved their space in a Pep side. Is Pep going to be OK with Best holding onto the ball and doing whatever he wants in the way a Fergie or Busby were? I don't think Pep has had a single player of that ilk in a team of his? I agree with you about Best's tenacity on both sides of the ball, btw. In that sense he's perfect for Pep.

Of course, if we're talking about some time chamber where both come up under Pep, it feels like a different discussion (to me), but just plonked as is, in their primes, I think you've got too much personality and individualism there for either party to tolerate the other's ideals. We know Pep doesn't tolerate difficult personalities, and I don't think either player takes too well to being told what to do to the extremes Pep takes things to.

 

[Rossa]

Walker, Kompany, De Bruyne, Silva and Aguero all have a legitimate shout imo, but in all cases it's pretty close.

Walker is ahead of Neville for me. Irwin might go RB and Evra LB.

Kompany has no right to go ahead of Rio or Vidic. None.

Silva was brilliant, but ahead of whom exactly? KDB in a 4-3-3, most likely. Aguero arguably ahead of Rooney.

Schmeichel
Irwin-Rio-Vidic-Evra
Keane-Scholes
Ronaldo-KDB-Giggs
Aguero

Then again, Cantona could go in ahead of KDB and Rooney for Aguero. KdB has consistency and numbers though.

 

[Bale Bale Bale]

It's all about recency bias.

Isn't there a case for the opposite being true as well though?

Some names from the past seem to be etched in stone in a lot of people's minds and are totally immovable regardless of what more recent players have done. City could win five trebles in a row and still there are many who wouldn't even entertain the idea of them being comparable to those of the past. Not saying this is definitively the case here but in general I notice this trend, across all sports.

 

[Remember the geese]

Love Scholes but De Bruyne is better.

He isn't though is he

 

[Teritus]

Maybe it’s just because I’m a teacher and I’m sick of listening to 12year olds telling me how Gerard and Lampard were miles ahead of Keane

Twelve-year-olds go for guys who were near retirement when they were born, rather than modern-day midfielders?

 

[Fortitude]

United perspective and style:

Ronaldo-----------Law-----------Best
--------------------Charlton
-------------Robson--------Keane
Irwin-------------------------------------Walker
----------------Vidic-----Ferdinand
------------------Schmeichel

Omitting Scholes is tough and I've avoided Edwards, Stam and Rooney

United's 22 is ridiculous.


City (Pep):

-----------------------Law
--------Charlton---------------Tevez
----------------Silva-----De Bruyne
-----------------------Rhodri
Irwin-------------------------------------Walker
--------------Edwards-----Ferdinand
---------------------Ederson

 

[Steve Bruce]

Kompany absolutely not

Great defender but he's also the most over rated as well.

In premier league years only, united have had 3 CBs that where better. Rio, Vidic and stam.

To be honest, the only player in the city team over the years I think gets in, in a 433 or 4231 is KDB with Keane and Scholes.

Haaland in a few years could be in there but it has to be more than goals, he needs to develop his all round game a lot. If he doesn't score, he does little else. Rooney for me at the moment.

Walker, he's a good player but a lot of it is his pace that gets him out of trouble. I don't think he is actually exceptionally good at anything. G Neville to me was more consistent and reliable and didn't need the pace to defend well.

Irwin was a fantastic LB and often gets overlooked for evra who was also fantastic, but I think Irwin was better and possibly overlooked as evra was more recent.

I'd have Giggs on the left and Ronaldo on the right. Giggs for whatever gets overlooked, he's the most decorated player in English football and was top of the game for 20 years. He'd have a field day as a left forward today as defenders aren't allowed tackle and the slightest touch is a foul and not much more would be a yellow. He'd score far more goals than he did back in the day when he was a winger when wingers where primarily about creating chances.

 

[RedPed]

Isn't there a case for the opposite being true as well though?

Some names from the past seem to be etched in stone in a lot of people's minds and are totally immovable regardless of what more recent players have done. City could win five trebles in a row and still there are many who wouldn't even entertain the idea of them being comparable to those of the past. Not saying this is definitively the case here but in general I notice this trend, across all sports.

I get what you're saying and you do have a point to some extent. But putting de Bruyne ahead of Scholes kinda just reinforces mine.

 

[Offside]

I like the Rodri shout as there isn’t really a former (or obviously current) United player you can compare him to.

 

[sullydnl]

All time, probably not. In terms of candidates for the eleven I think the sheer weight of numbers is too much in our favour as a result of us having had more great sides over a long period.

If we limited it just to the PL era though then they should certainly have a few players in the combined eleven. They've been far too dominant over the last decade to realistically argue otherwise.

 

[klsv]

De Bruyne, Walker and Aguero might make the bench if it's a long one. People putting Haaland in are mental, he's yet to get ahead of Aguero for City's all time XI.

 

[Blood Mage]

Schmeichel
Walker - Rio - Stam - Irwin
Keane
De Bruyne - Sir Bobby
Best - Aguero - Ronaldo
​

My objective all-time United/City XI

 

[Bwuk]

I always find it silly to pick players youve not been old enough to have watched in these debates.

For me, as a 31 year old.

Schmeichel
Walker - Ferdinand - Vidic - Evra
Beckham - Keane - Scholes - Ronaldo
KdB
Rooney​

 

[tenpoless]

I always find it silly to pick players youve not been old enough to have watched in these debates.

For me, as a 31 year old.

Schmeichel
G Nev - Ferdinand - Vidic - Evra
Beckham - Keane - Scholes - Ronaldo
Rooney
van Persie​

Fixed

 

[Blood Mage]

I always find it silly to pick players youve not been old enough to have watched in these debates.

For me, as a 31 year old.

Schmeichel
Walker - Ferdinand - Vidic - Evra
Beckham - Keane - Scholes - Ronaldo
KdB
Rooney​

Maybe it's arrogance on my part but I like to think I've seen enough footage of Best and Charlton to know they were on another level.

 

[Fortitude]

Messi's thing; Ronaldinho's thing or De Bruyne's thing are all extremely conducive to the team itself as all of them are all about aiding others whenever they could/can. They're not soloists of the same ilk as the aforementioned, so you can see how they would be reserved their space in a Pep side. Is Pep going to be OK with Best holding onto the ball and doing whatever he wants in the way a Fergie or Busby were? I don't think Pep has had a single player of that ilk in a team of his? I agree with you about Best's tenacity on both sides of the ball, btw. In that sense he's perfect for Pep.

Mahrez is about the closest thing? With a fraction of the personality.

 

[united_99]

It’s personal preference as well. For example if it is between Aguero and Haaland, I prefer Aguero. Haaland could end up as one of the goats and break all records but I would still prefer Aguero (who also scored a lot of goals even if not as many as Haaland).

 

[Hammondo]

I think it's going to come down to preference a lot. There is going to be a lot of bias but I think there are debatable players, especially in midfield.

Obviously we have many more top players though and we dominate the defence and keeper positions.

 

[Righteous Steps]

I get what you're saying and you do have a point to some extent. But putting de Bruyne ahead of Scholes kinda just reinforces mine.

Why? De Bruyne is one of the best midfielders of his generation and had greater peak seasons than Scholes, this is almost unarguable, Scholes rarely had seasons where he was best player in the whole entire league like De Bruyne has had, you could argue that is partly due to the quality of players he had in his own team at any given time, Keane, Beckham, Ronaldo Rooney RVN, but it’s not a crazy opinion to have De Bruyne ahead of him at all.

 

[General_Elegancia]

United perspective and style:

Ronaldo-----------Law-----------Best
--------------------Charlton
-------------Robson--------Keane
Irwin-------------------------------------Walker
----------------Vidic-----Ferdinand
------------------Schmeichel

Omitting Scholes is tough and I've avoided Edwards, Stam and Rooney

United's 22 is ridiculous.


City (Pep):

-----------------------Law
--------Charlton---------------Tevez
----------------Silva-----De Bruyne
-----------------------Rhodri
Irwin-------------------------------------Walker
--------------Edwards-----Ferdinand
---------------------Ederson

Agree that Edwards would be fit at Cb role in Pep’s system. I can see and imagine that he will take place at aka Stones’s role in current Pep’s team.

 

[Righteous Steps]

My point with both Ronaldo and Best is them having to buy into being automaton in terms of what Pep demands instead of the freedom of expression they both thrived in where they were allowed to do their thing with no reprimand.

Messi's thing; Ronaldinho's thing or De Bruyne's thing are all extremely conducive to the team itself as all of them are all about aiding others whenever they could/can. They're not soloists of the same ilk as the aforementioned, so you can see how they would be reserved their space in a Pep side. Is Pep going to be OK with Best holding onto the ball and doing whatever he wants in the way a Fergie or Busby were? I don't think Pep has had a single player of that ilk in a team of his? I agree with you about Best's tenacity on both sides of the ball, btw. In that sense he's perfect for Pep.

Of course, if we're talking about some time chamber where both come up under Pep, it feels like a different discussion (to me), but just plonked as is, in their primes, I think you've got too much personality and individualism there for either party to tolerate the other's ideals. We know Pep doesn't tolerate difficult personalities, and I don't think either player takes too well to being told what to do to the extremes Pep takes things to.

I think Best is that talented where it doesn’t really matter IMO, you make a fair point but Guardiola when dealing with otherworldly talent like Messi, Best, has and will probably make slight expeditions to his rigid framework.

 

[Righteous Steps]

United perspective and style:

Ronaldo-----------Law-----------Best
--------------------Charlton
-------------Robson--------Keane
Irwin-------------------------------------Walker
----------------Vidic-----Ferdinand
------------------Schmeichel

Omitting Scholes is tough and I've avoided Edwards, Stam and Rooney

United's 22 is ridiculous.


City (Pep):

-----------------------Law
--------Charlton---------------Tevez
----------------Silva-----De Bruyne
-----------------------Rhodri
Irwin-------------------------------------Walker
--------------Edwards-----Ferdinand
---------------------Ederson

Best is a player that can fit into any style, he’s talent was almost supernatural these type of players you make exceptions for.

it’s interesting you put De Bruyne in your team, but as a midfielder De Bruyne is a player that has a lot of freedom in terms of how his utilises the ball, in 2010 De Bruyne type player would not what we associate with a Pep Guardiola midfielder.

He loses the ball trying to play creative passes as much as any top midfielder of the last few years, normally we would identify a Guardiola midfielder with the Xavi Busquets Modric Veratti types, so it goes to show how a unique talent can make even the most stringent of managers make tweaks and changes to accommodate them.

 

[Fortitude]

Agree that Edwards would be fit at Cb role in Pep’s system. I can see and imagine that he will take place at aka Stones’s role in current Pep’s team.

Yeah, provides absolutely everything Pep wants:

- high line
- passing (between the lines, or long)
- ease if movement into midfield (can just put him there from the outset, even)
- intelligence
- ball carrying

And an excellent defender/player one on one. Should be in the United team too, but Vidic-Rio is proven and historically legendary in its own right.

 

[Fortitude]

I think Best is that talented where it doesn’t really matter IMO, you make a fair point but Guardiola when dealing with otherworldly talent like Messi, Best, has and will probably make slight expeditions to his rigid framework.

Best is not like Messi. Messi serves the team as equally as himself, but always looked for the best option for the collective. Best was no slouch at supplying others, but did so on his own terms - Messi would never have Charlton bemoaning him not passing the ball at the opportune moment for him.

Best is like Mahrez in an ultra state, sometimes he'll supply, other times he won't. Mahrez often had Pep wound up and perhaps it'd be less so with Best because he'd convert far more, but ultimately I believe Pep needs controllable players who don't contest his authority and that's just not the peak Best.

 

[Moriarty]

One could argue Bert Trautmann should be the keeper, anyone who plays in a cup final with a broken neck has gotta be fecking special!

Never saw him play myself but my Dad trained with him in the early 50's and says he was awesome

Was your dad on City's books?

 

[Fortitude]

Best is a player that can fit into any style, he’s talent was almost supernatural these type of players you make exceptions for.

it’s interesting you put De Bruyne in your team, but as a midfielder De Bruyne is a player that has a lot of freedom in terms of how his utilises the ball, in 2010 De Bruyne type player would not what we associate with a Pep Guardiola midfielder.

He loses the ball trying to play creative passes as much as any top midfielder of the last few years, normally we would identify a Guardiola midfielder with the Xavi Busquets Modric Veratti types, so it goes to show how a unique talent can make even the most stringent of managers make tweaks and changes to accommodate them.

De Bruyne does everything to the benefit of the team; he is completely selfless. Pep loves that kind of player and will trust them because nothing is geared toward personal glory.

 

[Castia]

They’ve had some world class players in recent years it would be hard to pick a full United 11 in a combined team:

Schmeichael
Walker Vidic Ferdinand Evra
Scholes De Bruyne Silva
Ronaldo Aguero Rooney

Best, Charlton and Law was way before my time I’d feel like I wasn’t being genuine if I added them having not seen so many of their games

 

[njred]

I always find it silly to pick players youve not been old enough to have watched in these debates.

For me, as a 31 year old.

Schmeichel
Walker - Ferdinand - Vidic - Evra
Beckham - Keane - Scholes - Ronaldo
KdB
Rooney​

That’s like saying that Pele shouldn’t be in a Brazil all time team because you never seen him. Best was one of the two best players in the world when he was doing his stuff and was the best player ever to wear a united shirt.

 

[Moriarty]

So many players missing, but that's the drawback with threads like these. From the late 60s onward until the advent of Mansour, there's not a lot of outstanding names from the blue half that spring to mind.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

Walker is ahead of Neville for me. Irwin might go RB and Evra LB.

Kompany has no right to go ahead of Rio or Vidic. None.

Silva was brilliant, but ahead of whom exactly? KDB in a 4-3-3, most likely. Aguero arguably ahead of Rooney.

Schmeichel
Irwin-Rio-Vidic-Evra
Keane-Scholes
Ronaldo-KDB-Giggs
Aguero

Then again, Cantona could go in ahead of KDB and Rooney for Aguero. KdB has consistency and numbers though.

That wouldn't even be the United best 11, are you only talking PL era?

Robson, Charlton, Best, Law should all be in the 11, so no City player gets close.

KDB doesn't get in as the CAM over Charlton and Aguero doesn't get in ahead of Law. Ignoring Law, Aguero doesn't get in ahead of Rooney either.

 

[Red in STL]

Was your dad on City's books?

No - it was at some public training type club, my Dad's in his 80's now and the details are a bit hazy now. but I have seen a series of photographs of them together on a cinder track and also with a football, it had to have been around 1953 because my Dad joined the Royal Navy in 1954 and it was before then

Edit: Thinking about it, could have had something to do with St Mark's in West Gorton, that was my Dad's family local church

 

[Pascal Quiff]

Surely the only real candidates from City are KDB, Aguero, Schmeichel and Tevez?

 

[Son]

De Bruyne, Walker & Cancelo I’d probs put in the team. Irwin v Cancelo is a close one but I think Cancelo reached a higher level for a shorter period of time. Don’t tell Roy though…

 

[MiceOnMeth]

Surely the only real candidates from City are KDB, Aguero, Schmeichel and Tevez?

Tevez wouldn't even make the reserves.

 

[IrishMcD]

Twelve-year-olds go for guys who were near retirement when they were born, rather than modern-day midfielders?

I think you might have missed the point I was making. 12 yo's talking shit about Gerard being better than Keane because they play FIFA or whatever, is the same as lads in their 20s and 30s comparing Best and Charlton to modern day players based on clips and what they have read.

 

[Mibabalou]

KDB and Walker would be the only ones to even enter the conversation.

Walker over Neville would be the only one I would put in.

 

[Rossa]

That wouldn't even be the United best 11, are you only talking PL era?

Robson, Charlton, Best, Law should all be in the 11, so no City player gets close.

KDB doesn't get in as the CAM over Charlton and Aguero doesn't get in ahead of Law. Ignoring Law, Aguero doesn't get in ahead of Rooney either.

Can’t comment on players I never watched.

Rooney and Aguero are debatable. Top level would probably be RvP vs Haaland. Haaland edges.

 

[Arthur Pewty]

You're forgetting Joe Spence born in 1898.

FFS, what is the point of looking back this far? Talk about basking in former glory.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

I always find it silly to pick players youve not been old enough to have watched in these debates.

For me, as a 31 year old.

Schmeichel
Walker - Ferdinand - Vidic - Evra
Beckham - Keane - Scholes - Ronaldo
KdB
Rooney​

Never heard of the concept or discipline of history, have you? The question was ‘all time’ not ‘arbitrary point I started watching football’.

 

[Bwuk]

Never heard of the concept or discipline of history, have you? The question was ‘all time’ not ‘arbitrary point I started watching football’.

How can I judge someone I've never seen play?

That’s like saying that Pele shouldn’t be in a Brazil all time team because you never seen him. Best was one of the two best players in the world when he was doing his stuff and was the best player ever to wear a united shirt.

Not really. I picked an 11 off of players I'd seen play. If you asked me to pick one based off name value then yeah you'd probably look to include Best, but I'd be lying if I tried to compare him to Giggs/Ronaldo/Beckham etc as I've never seen Best play.