The 3 Year Rebuilding Process

[Trigg]

If your rebuild takes longer than 3 years and you don't see signs along the way, you are doing it wrong.

Ok. I'll pass it on.

 

[Oranges038]

There's no point to this discuss. This 3 years nonsense is something you and some other United fans convince themselves with just to defend the current manager. When we hire a manager and he does well, people talk about how having a good manager makes a quick difference, then once things go south with any United manager, these threads start popping up. We have seen this before. It's just delusional nonsense to make you feel better about the whole thing, and even though you have seen it 3 times before, you keep on convincing yourself it will work one day, that one day a United manager will turn into the new Ferguson after 3 years.

You basically want the manager to get more time based on nothing. His football is shit, his style is nonexistent, his signings are crap, but let's give him 3 years regardless, as if this is the magical number and after it he will transform into a god. Anyone can see how ridiculous this concept is without much discussion.

No club works on this basis but as I said United fans are desperate and want to feel better about the whole thing.

Again, I've not mentioned the manager, or whether or not ETH is the man or if he should get more time. You're looking at this all wrong and letting your bias towards wanting ETH out cloud your thinking.

What I am putting out there, is that the club, need to be evaluating this squad on the basis of where it is going to be 3 years from now. And be putting a proper structure in place to build a squad and phase out the current members that aren't going to be worth anything to the team in 3 years. To plan ahead and have a squad that they can then go and target coaches that match what they want.

And as for the bolded. When did Real start the succession planning for life without Kroos, Modric and Casemiro? Ramos? When did City start planning for Kompany and Fernandinho leaving? Etc etc. You'd have to be a total idiot not to see this is how successful clubs manage their squads.

 

[el3mel]

Again, I've not mentioned the manager, or whether or not ETH is the man or if he should get more time. You're looking at this all wrong and letting your bias towards wanting ETH out cloud your thinking.

What I am putting out there, is that the club, need to be evaluating this squad on the basis of where it is going to be 3 years from now. And be putting a proper structure in place to build a squad and phase out the current members that aren't going to be worth anything to the team in 3 years. To plan ahead and have a squad that they can then go and target coaches that match what they want.

And as for the bolded. When did Real start the succession planning for life without Kroos, Modric and Casemiro? Ramos? When did City start planning for Kompany and Fernandinho leaving? Etc etc. You'd have to be a total idiot not to see this is how successful clubs manage their squads.

Which is nonsensical point based on nothing but your own judgment. Next?

 

[AlexUTD]

I guess the thread title was meant to be:
The 30 Year Rebuild

 

[UnofficialDevil]

If Jassim had bough us this summer, Kim , Kane, Caseido, maybe a new manager we would be challenging in 3 months not 3 years.

 

[Cheimoon]

Why is it always a rebuild with us? What’s wrong with progressive, incremental improvement like at other clubs?

Because other clubs don't flipflop between coaches with incompatible approaches. If Ten Hag would go from Ten Hag to Potter to De Zerbi go whoever, they wouldn't constantly need to rebuild either.

There's no such thing. That's what United fans are convincing themselves to defend our frauds of managers that keep on getting hired. It took Newcastle one year to transform from a relegation fodder to an established top 4 team.

As is United. How long you think until Newcastle can mount a title challenge or compete seriously in the CL? Cause that's what people want for United and it's a LOT harder than being competitive for the CL spots.

Thought Ten Hag himself said in the summer that he was now happy with the squad, when asked about the rebuild. .

He's always positive about the club and individual players in press conferences. (Well, Sancho.) I mean, he was praising De Gea in public while agreeing behind the scenes to let his contract expire!

Truth be told all our squad members are shite or at the very best not gonna be contributing 3 years from now.

This is the sort of reactionary nonsense that make the FF forums such a hard place to participate in. Of course they're not all crap or old. They're struggling in a setup that isn't working, but just last year January, things were going pretty alright, and United's squad is stronger if anything this year.

 

[AlexMG]

we fecked

 

[100]

We 100% need a rebuild. People seem to have wildly different interpretations of what that entails, but it doesn’t have to be the American sell everyone and lose every match on purpose thing

People use Newcastle as an example but they had had a good base due to Ashley being a cheapskate, and they’re still far from the finished article.

A rebuild is more getting rid of contracts and players that drag you down, and create a wage/transfer structure where you’re reducing the chance of bringing those types of players in.

Ten Haag/the board fecked the most recent attempt with Antony, Mount, Casemiro

 

[Oranges038]

Which is nonsensical point based on nothing but your own judgment. Next?

It is not based on my own judgement. Clearly you have no interest in even considering the long term planning that needs to happen. You want it now.

If you knew anything you would know that this is exactly the process SAF followed and it was why he was able to identify and replace players over and over during the course of his 26 years in charge. Which is why he was able to maintain and build 3 successful teams over that time.

City started building for Pep 2 years before he came in. In his first season they finished 3rd? Since then they've built and maintained a squad that has successly phased out many top players and maintained levels. Aguero, Kompany, Fernandinho, Silva, Sterling etc etc. You can create arguments about the money they've spent, but you cannot deny the brilliance of the forward planning and recruitment.

Right now Utd need to build towards a squad that is going to be in the running for top trophies every year for a number of years. That process to build that squad from the basis that's there right now, this squad is utter shite, there's no balance and it's extremely low of quality and depth, is going to take 3 years.

 

[bosnian_red]

There's no point to this discuss. This 3 years nonsense is something you and some other United fans convince themselves with just to defend the current manager. When we hire a manager and he does well, people talk about how having a good manager makes a quick difference, then once things go south with any United manager, these threads start popping up. We have seen this before. It's just delusional nonsense to make you feel better about the whole thing, and even though you have seen it 3 times before, you keep on convincing yourself it will work one day, that one day a United manager will turn into the new Ferguson after 3 years.

You basically want the manager to get more time based on nothing. His football is shit, his style is nonexistent, his signings are crap, but let's give him 3 years regardless, as if this is the magical number and after it he will transform into a god. Anyone can see how ridiculous this concept is without much discussion.

No club works on this basis but as I said United fans are desperate and want to feel better about the whole thing.

All clubs work on this basis. But also I think you are misunderstanding. Nobody is saying 3 years before judgement, 3 years without progress, 3 years of going backwards. You need progress, an improvement in football, and see a realistic path where the system has potential but is limited by players.

There are without a doubt a ton of limiting factors with us right now. It is not entirely clear that Ten Hags coaching doesn't have potential to be at a high level for us. Change the structure and how recruitment is handled, leave him to be a coach, what level could he take us to? I'm really not sure what that looks like with him. I think there has been clear holes in his approach and it probably has a limit, but at the same time... It's not all been bad. Or at least while the spirits were up we showed good things. Whether they were good enough was a different matter. Good enough ultimately is competing with Pep and Klopp basically, so you essentially have to be a top 5 tactician in world football while being able to handle the pressure at United. So it's not easy to find that.

 

[Gordon S]

Newcastle turned from shit to very good the moment they got new owners. No clue how things could turn around so fast for them but that is probably what we need before we get anywhere. New owners, a new boardroom, new people in charge.

Another point, our squad is already better than most teams we struggle against. Crystal Palace, Sheffield United, Brentford, Galatasaray etc, they barely have a player that walks into our team. They are still, as teams, able to give us all sorts of problems.

 

[sunama]

Why is it always a rebuild with us? What’s wrong with progressive, incremental improvement like at other clubs?

Exactly!

We don't need a rebuild.
We need a proper structure, first.
Then a suitable manager should be appointed, along with a bunch of people replaced, in key roles.
We are failing at so many levels it begs belief.

We need to dispose of the deadwood, over a period of 2 years, and replace with players not on super high wages and who are hungry to succeed.

Some may not like it but I think Rangnick should be hired at board level to make recommendations and changes. He will be ruthless and perform "open heart surgery" on the club.

Sadly, standards are now so damn low, if we beat Luton, some would think we'd just won a trophy.

Sacking the manager won't solve any of our problems, but I tell you what, a negative goal difference at this stage of the season is absolutely unacceptable.

We need a total and complete overhaul of all footballing operations at Manchester United. Talking about rebuilds and squad building etc under the current structure is a total waste of time. In the next 3 years this lot will sign all manner of shite, or half decent players who can't play together, probably for 2-3 different managers, and we'll be exactly where we are now - only with our rivals having won even more of the serious trophies whilst we're making do convincing ourselves that the domestic cups and good Europa League runs represents progress.

Agreed.

 

[sunama]

Newcastle turned from shit to very good the moment they got new owners. No clue how things could turn around so fast for them but that is probably what we need before we get anywhere. New owners, a new boardroom, new people in charge.

When Middle Eastern owners take over and pump huge money into a club, they demand quick results. And surprise surprise....they get them.
We on the other hand require 3 years rebuilds. And we all know the result of that.

 

[Oranges038]

The word "rebuild" needs to be banned from this club. Anyone using this word has no credibility.

Why? Every club is in a constant rebuilding mode, the process is continuous, players become stale or no longer required, the dynamic of the group changes or needs some fresh faces. It should be 2 or 3 players a year, since last year ETH has brought in 16 players on transfers, loans and frees. That is not how it should work, a manager shouldn't come in and need that many new players in a year.

Utd are so badly run. "Ah Diogo, you've been shit for 3 years, but here you go have a new 4 year deal". "Marcus, you played well for 3 months, how does 300k a week sound?" "Real Madrid are selling two 30 years olds, quick lads lets get a bargain". It's this short termism that has led to this mess.

The problem at Utd right now is that when you look forward, 2/3 years down the line. Not many of this current squad are going to be useful. Too many will be the wrong side of 30 and right now they aren't good enough. How are they going to be part of a squad that's going to move forward after that?

Utd are like an old car with 4 sized different wheels, where half the gears don't work, it gets stuck in reverse and feck knows if it's going to start in the morning, and even if it does you don't know if it'll get you anwhere or break down before you get out the gate. You could put 4 new tyres on it, but it's still not going to run properly. It needs a whole new engine to work right.

So, this rebuild process has to be done right. This squad is miles away from competing for trophies. It's nigh on impossible to think that the bulk of this group of players is going to get better under a different coach again for the 3rd time. The structure in the background needs to be fixed before any of that can happen. And fans just need a reality check and stop being cry babies, accept that there needs to be some pain over a few years in order for this to work for the better in the long term.

 

[Oranges038]

I think we're all coming at this from the wrong direction. You can't call it a 'rebuild' anymore. What are we rebuilding? Fergie's United? His last successful team of 2010-2013 needed a rebuild as soon as he walked out the door. We won the league in 2013 through Fergie's willpower, his old guard pulling us through and RvP having a magical season.

Moyes inherited a team where all the best players and leaders were 30+ (other than Rooney who was 28), and the only players aged 27 and younger were; Nani (27), Anderson (26), Evans (26), Chicharito (26), Buttner (25), Kagawa (25), Amos (24), Cleverley (24), Smalling (24), De Gea (23), Fabio & Rafael (23), Welbeck (23), Zaha (21) and Januzaj (18). Then we gave him Fellaini and Mata (both 26).

That side needed a 3 year, carefully planned and committed rebuild, from the ground up. What we've done for 10 years is piss around adding icing to a cake that was never there. Sod rebuilding, or even BUILDING at this point, we don't even have foundations, and the people we've got in to do the building haven't got a fecking clue what they're doing.

We need a total and complete overhaul of all footballing operations at Manchester United. Talking about rebuilds and squad building etc under the current structure is a total waste of time. In the next 3 years this lot will sign all manner of shite, or half decent players who can't play together, probably for 2-3 different managers, and we'll be exactly where we are now - only with our rivals having won even more of the serious trophies whilst we're making do convincing ourselves that the domestic cups and good Europa League runs represents progress.

This is the point that a lot of people just fail to grasp. It isn't just about the manager, it's about building a background structure and a squad that is continuously being evaluated as to where it's going to be in 3 years. Proper successsion planning in place and identifying replacements and giving them time to bed in before the current player is moved on.

Or we could continuously lurch from manager to manager, offering shite like Dalot 4 year deals and keep signing cast offs from Real or over priced shite from down the league.

Maybe people just like the misery.

 

[alexanderplatz]

Usually we need to reset the plan around year two or early year three

 

[Big Ben Foster]

The word "rebuild" needs to be banned from this club. Anyone using this word has no credibility.

It's like the never-ending "five year plans" we used to make fun of Arsenal for during the Wenger years

 

[tomaldinho1]

Given how transfer windows work and realistic spending, you have to look at our squad and think A) where are we now and B) what's the plan to get to the next level.

Answer to A) is an EL/CL club, form this season has been dogshite but we've basically finished in those places the last decade.
B) is the uncomfortable part because it means having the patience to build something, which in turn means you look at our first team squad and have to accept many of them shouldn't be thought of as part of the building plan given their age.

How do you do that? You look at the age of the squad and the profiles of player, you decide what style broadly you want to play and then you hire a DOF who will spend every waking hour working on this plan. Let's say we choose a high press attacking tactic i.e. Klopp at Pool.

Players who should be moved on asap due to age/ability: Varane, Casemiro, Evans, Eriksen
Players to be sold over next three years due to age/ability: Bruno, VdB, Martial, McT, Dalot, Lindelof, Maguire, Antony, Sancho.

So you have to think of it as a staggered evolution, if this year's team is the below:

----------------------------------Hojlund------------------------------
Rashford -------------------------------------------------- Antony
----------------- Mount ----------------- Bruno -------------------
--------------------------------- Case ----------------------------------
Shaw---------- Licha -------------- Varane ----------- AWB
--------------------------------- Onana -------------------------------

Next year's might be something like this: Amarabat is not ideal but he's relatively cheap and can play the role, plus if we are playing aggressive press there is less of a need for FdJ level sitter. Cb has to be a physcially impressive (fast, strong, aerial and ideally early twenties), CM should be young but elite signing, Mainoo obviously competes for this spot. Mount had his best season off the right and I think could be a very useful inside forward.

------------------------------- Hojlund ------------------------------
Rashford------------------------------------------------ Mount
-------------------- CM -------------------- Bruno-------------------
-------------------------------- Amrabat -----------------------------
Shaw ------- Licha -------------------------- CB -------- AWB
------------------------------- Onana ----------------------------------

Then the year after: now you have Hojlund, Garnacho, maybe Mainoo breaking though. We likely have to pay up for a top class DM, the RW can be young but the emphasis has to be on raw speed and a player with a high ceiling. If we can find/develop an RB in this time, it would likely be good to upgrade on AWB. This team has an older Shaw, Rashford, Onana but the rest have years ahead of them and then every window you can much more targeted in who you sign. Mount may well have moved on as well but he's a useful utility across the midfield/attack and is yong.

------------------------------ Hojlund -------------------------------
Garnacho ------------------------------------------------ RW
--------------------- CM ---------------- Mount -----------------
------------------------------- DM ----------------------------------
Shaw ---------- Licha ----------- CB ------------------- RB
------------------------------ Onana -----------------------------

Most people will probably look at this and not like it because we likely won't win anything in that time but it's the reality in my mind. It's very clear we can't keep spending huge amounts and trying to fasttrack to the top by buying players like Varane or Case.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Why? Every club is in a constant rebuilding mode, the process is continuous, players become stale or no longer required, the dynamic of the group changes or needs some fresh faces. It should be 2 or 3 players a year, since last year ETH has brought in 16 players on transfers, loans and frees. That is not how it should work, a manager shouldn't come in and need that many new players in a year.

That's not really 'rebuilding.' It's more like upkeep.

 

[bosnian_red]

On the actual rebuild itself. I'm gonna assume ten hag is a dead man walking. Whether it's the right call or not, who knows, but I think he's been on the back of too many batterings to really right the ship, at least in a way that sets to to the target of actually challenging. Can be solid, not sure if he can compete with Pep/Klopp. There are few who can. But assuming Ratcliffe takes over at the new year, implements a functional structure and puts the right starting blocks above the manager, and then whoever they bring in, I'd imagine squad wise we'll see something like this process. And with a view to actually be a top team and compete for real trophies in 26/27, but of course still progressing and doing well before then.

Gk - Onana will stay for most of his contract. He's a solid keeper who has some very good qualities. Keeper is usually the last thing that gets upgraded if you have a decent one and I think he is that. Backups are mostly irrelevant so not worth talking about.

RB - Dalot just signed a new contract, is decent but nothing special, but not that bad either. Should he be starter, probably not, but also there are bigger issues. Wan Bissaka will be short term backup/challenge but probably be replaced and Dalot kept as depth. Or we extend Wan Bissaka beyond the option year, and sell dalot for 30m or so. Both options, depends on his contract, either way we'll need a new RB but probably won't get one until summer 2025. Both decent ages so not a huge worry.

CB - huge rebuild needed. Only Martinez can be seen as confident to be a starter even after January, let alone 3 years from now. Only Martinez is confident to be in the squad after the summer. Lindelof IMO is fine to stay as a squad player until 2026 summer (3rd choice CB and then 4th choice CB). Maguire and Varane should be moved on asap while we can get money for them. Evans as a part coaching role and part emergency backup role is fine, he's actually performed at a decent level, just shouldn't need to be used much.

LB - Shaw will be 31 in 26/27 and his fitness has been much improved the last few years. Current injury is probably overload related, but I think he'll still be a top player then, so I don't think much needs to happen here. Malacia is good as a depth LB. Alvaro has decent potential, should've kept him in given the injuries (but also glad he's developing away from the club for now).

Midfield - huge rebuild needed. Bruno is 29, and while I think he'll still be a very good player over the next 3 years and don't see him declining much, it's hard to say what direction we will go in, if he'd be open to a big move to Saudi if they send a big offer, or if he can adapt to a different role. My guess is he remains a key player over the next few years but right when we are ready to step up to truly challenge (26/27), one of the moves is dropping him to be a squad player and replacing him with somebody.
Eriksen will leave before long, McTominay will leave before long, casemiro will probably go to Saudi, amrabat will probably return to Fiorentina. Mount is a squad player level as I don't think he is better than Bruno and we just signed him so he will stay. Good age, but won't ever be more than squad player. Dumb signing really.
Mainoo is the one who has huge potential as the deep playmaker type. And he's not quite ready to have a real impact in the team (nor do I think it's a great idea to bring him in right now), but over the next few years he should progress loads and will be key moving forward.

LW - Lots of people here hate Rashford. But he's a good player and he's here to stay, so better move on with that. Garnacho has big potential but has 2nd season syndrome right now, which is normal especially as a young player in a team like this one where it's a bad environment to bring in young players. Don't think anything big has to happen here. Rashford will be 29 in 26/27, should still be a key player but I don't think he'll be the key player by then. Think there's a fair chance Garnacho and him become a sort of Doku/Grealish situation at City or Mahrez/Foden thing they had going on. Strong rotation/impact subs. We won't sign anyone here though.

RW - Hoping for a miracle from Amad given I see nothing from Antony or Sancho. Sancho will leave soon. Antony will stay for a bit yet but he'll be sold before long if we can. Might remain as a squad player by 26/27 given his fee and wages. Need new signings here, as I don't think Amad is the right type of player really. Greenwood will leave I think as an easy quick win for the new management as he hasn't impressed at Getafe, nor is he the right profile of player for what we need on top of the controversy.

CF - Hojlund I think will be a future star, but ideally we should have an older player compete with him until Hojlund is ready to truly earn the starting key player spot (so somebody replace Martial this summer for cheap but be a solid player). It'll lead to inconsistency the next few seasons, but it lines up with our general building anyway so not a huge deal. He should be making the big steps right around the point where we are ready.

So in 26/27, I can see the following being here:

GK - Onana, Altay or whoever as backup
RB - Dalot OR AWB, not both
CB - Martinez
LB - Shaw, Malacia, Alvaro (maybe 1 of the latter 2 will move on)
Mid - Bruno, Mainoo, Mount
Wing - Rashford, Garnacho, Amad, maybe Antony if we can't sell
CF - Hojlund

So that's about 12-15 players who are here right now. So half a squad should be new. Signings should be focused on under 25 year olds.

 

[stefan92]

Why? Every club is in a constant rebuilding mode, the process is continuous, players become stale or no longer required, the dynamic of the group changes or needs some fresh faces. It should be 2 or 3 players a year, since last year ETH has brought in 16 players on transfers, loans and frees. That is not how it should work, a manager shouldn't come in and need that many new players in a year.

You are right in what you describe. That's exactly why "rebuild" is a word that doesn't fit the process well. The linguistic issue here is, that (re)building indicates that you will have a building in the end that you can look at. But as you correctly describe you are never done upgrading your squad, as parts of it keep deteriorating all the time. There is this constant impression that United fans are looking for "the one" manager who will build them a great team. In that they fail to realize that everything is changing over time and that it can be right to have manager X at some point and also it can be right to change to manager Y at a later point. Both can be correct calls and there might not be the need to start a new rebuild when this happens, on the contrary a new manager can be the right one do go the next step with the team.

For me at least "rebuild" is a word that's tied into this belief of "one manager has to come and make everything right". And as an atheist I don't like messianic expectations.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

I think if you do these "who will be contributing in 3 years" exercises with other squads, the results won't be too different. I did it with Real Madrid and very generously got 12 players.

The bigger issue is the quality of the players that remain.

 

[Oranges038]

That's not really 'rebuilding.' It's more like upkeep.

Maybe rebuild is the wrong word for that. But, that's the point Utd need to get to. And at the minute, it's going to take 3 years of rebuilding to get to that point of being able to make minor adjustments to the upkeep of the squad. 1 or 2 players a year always with a view to succession planning.

I often hear people go on about Real and what they do. They had Casemiro, Kroos and Modric, they went and signed Tchouameni, Bellingham, and Camavinga over a couple of years to replace those 3. All the while they had a succession plan for Valverde. Modric and Kroos are still functioning in the team while these guys bed in.

At the back they signed Militao to replace Ramos/Varane and then picked up Alaba and Rudiger to supplement the back line. They are constantly building with the future in mind. That midfield is sorted for about 8-10 years now and I can almost guarantee they will sign a couple of forwards/striker and another defender or 2 within the next year or 2 and they'll have a squad set for another number of years. They will probably win a CL or two before Utd get close to winning the league again.

 

[Ibrahimorich]

Sorry but this 3 year rebuild is guff. Does it mean that we write off 3 years? ETH has signed a dozen players, how many does he need? He even benched 2 off his major signings for the City match. The squad we have has big issues but its full of seasoned internationals with loads of caps. How do they get picked for their countries? Emre at Villa and Spurs have shown top coaches don't need years and a squad of their own signigns to achieve decent football and clear styles of play.

I think what a top coach can be expected to do and overhauling our football structure are seperate issues. We need to do the latter and that is a multi year process, where we have a DOF and better scouting and a coach that works within that. So that players that can survive a change in manager and are well scouted are signed, not the current awful, awful signings that we could all see coming but somehow Murtough and others could not

There's a huge gulf in stature and expectations from Spurs and Villa to Man Utd. Also Emre flopped at Arsenal.

 

[tomaldinho1]

I think if you do these "who will be contributing in 3 years" exercises with other squads, the results won't be too different. I did it with Real Madrid and very generously got 12 players.

The bigger issue is the quality of the players that remain.

I don’t see how it’s comparable at all. Real have a very solid core of very young players: Bellingham, Camavinga, Rodrygo, Vini, Tchouameni, Valverde, Militao are all 25 or under. The planning has been very good, you’ve paid big fees but targeted basically not needing to recruit in a number of key roles for nearly a decade if players stay fit.

 

[glazed]

Bringing in Erikson, Varane and Casemiro was not a rebuild it was a temporary fix that has already come unstuck. Young high quality midfielders are really expensive and don't visit graveyards. None of that is ETH's fault.

 

[Mingus]

The first year with a new manager is the easiest. Years 2 and 3 the hardest.

We're still having to play a lot of the players that failed Ole and Rangnick (some even Mourinho).
A lot of people and pundits were saying it was a 3 year project and last years progress has obviously been derailed by injuries.

While it looks like Howe and Postecoglou have turned it around quickly, it's too early to say whether this is a false dawn or not.
The 3 year rebuild was necessary for SAF and Arteta is another.

 

[el3mel]

Because other clubs don't flipflop between coaches with incompatible approaches. If Ten Hag would go from Ten Hag to Potter to De Zerbi go whoever, they wouldn't constantly need to rebuild either.

As is United. How long you think until Newcastle can mount a title challenge or compete seriously in the CL? Cause that's what people want for United and it's a LOT harder than being competitive for the CL spots.

He's always positive about the club and individual players in press conferences. (Well, Sancho.) I mean, he was praising De Gea in public while agreeing behind the scenes to let his contract expire!

This is the sort of reactionary nonsense that make the FF forums such a hard place to participate in. Of course they're not all crap or old. They're struggling in a setup that isn't working, but just last year January, things were going pretty alright, and United's squad is stronger if anything this year.

Football clubs change between managers with different approaches all the time. United just make a meal out of this because our managers keep on signing bad players.

 

[Cheimoon]

Football clubs change between managers with different approaches all the time. United just make a meal out of this because our managers keep on signing bad players.

Which successful football clubs actually do this? Go from Moyes to Van Gaal to Mourinho, or from Ole to Ten Hag.

 

[el3mel]

Which successful football clubs actually do this? Go from Moyes to Van Gaal to Mourinho, or from Ole to Ten Hag.

If you have a proper structure and you sign good players, switching approaches isn't a big issue. Good players adapt all the time. Fellaini and Mate whom Moyes signed were stable and two of the best players for both LVG and Mourinho for example. Bruno who Ole signed has been a stable for Ten Hag as well. Rashford has been a stable player for 3 different managers in a row.

You're just signing shit players and adding more deadwood to the squad. That's the issue, not the style of such managers.

 

[Cheimoon]

If you have a proper structure and you sign good players, switching approaches isn't a big issue. Good players adapt all the time. Fellaini and Mate whom Moyes signed were stable and two of the best players for both LVG and Mourinho for example. Bruno who Ole signed has been a stable for Ten Hag as well. Rashford has been a stable player for 3 different managers in a row.

You're just signing shit players and adding more deadwood to the squad. That's the issue, not the style of such managers.

That sounds interesting but I think it's entirely divorced from reality. Clubs that have a proper structure don't changes styles so radically - that's part of what a proper structure is supposed to guarantee. And I'm not talking about switching from one attacking style to another (like Brighton changing from Potter to De Zerbi); I'm talking about seismic shifts like Van Gaal to Mourinho or Ole to Ten Hag. Who actually does that and is continuously successful?

United on the other hand have done this for a decade now - and it shows, cause a lot of players behind the first team are still quite unsuited to what's probably Ten Hag's preferred approach (dominant, high-energy, vertical play). I'm not sure how you can deny that, or again, I'd be very interested in examples of continuously successful clubs that employ this kind of approach.

 

[stefan92]

That sounds interesting but I think it's entirely divorced from reality. Clubs that have a proper structure don't changes styles so radically - that's part of what a proper structure is supposed to guarantee. And I'm not talking about switching from one attacking style to another (like Brighton changing from Potter to De Zerbi); I'm talking about seismic shifts like Van Gaal to Mourinho or Ole to Ten Hag. Who actually does that and is continuously successful?

United on the other hand have done this for a decade now - and it shows, cause a lot of players behind the first team are still quite unsuited to what's probably Ten Hag's preferred approach (dominant, high-energy, vertical play). I'm not sure how you can deny that, or again, I'd be very interested in examples of continuously successful clubs that employ this kind of approach.

You should have a look at atletico Madrid this season. They did not even change their manager but are suddenly playing an exciting attacking style that's far different than the proverbial anti-football they played for a decade under Simeone. Seismic shifts in style are possible.

 

[el3mel]

That sounds interesting but I think it's entirely divorced from reality. Clubs that have a proper structure don't changes styles so radically - that's part of what a proper structure is supposed to guarantee. And I'm not talking about switching from one attacking style to another (like Brighton changing from Potter to De Zerbi); I'm talking about seismic shifts like Van Gaal to Mourinho or Ole to Ten Hag. Who actually does that and is continuously successful?

United on the other hand have done this for a decade now - and it shows, cause a lot of players behind the first team are still quite unsuited to what's probably Ten Hag's preferred approach (dominant, high-energy, vertical play). I'm not sure how you can deny that, or again, I'd be very interested in examples of continuously successful clubs that employ this kind of approach.

Mourinho to Ole to Ten Hag is actually not really that radical. All of them have been pretty pragmatic and depending mostly on transitions and counter attacking. Moyes too. LVG is the only odd one among them.

 

[Cheimoon]

Mourinho to Ole to Ten Hag is actually not really that radical. All of them have been pretty pragmatic and depending mostly on transitions and counter attacking. Moyes too. LVG is the only odd one among them.

I did not include Mourinho to Ole on purpose, cause I can definitely see continuity there. But if you compare Ole's United to Ten Hag's Ajax (which surely was the reason Ten Hag was hired), then there is absolutely no continuity, and you realize that Ten Hag cannot possibly be playing the football he is aiming for right now. And Moyes to Van Gaal plus Van Gaal to Mourinho were huge shifts as well.

You should have a look at atletico Madrid this season. They did not even change their manager but are suddenly playing an exciting attacking style that's far different than the proverbial anti-football they played for a decade under Simeone. Seismic shifts in style are possible.

That's the same coach though, and something he has himself been building towards. That's a lot easier than bringing in someone new who isn't intimately familiar with the tactical foundations of the team/squad and wants to make a 180 based on that. (With which I'm not saying it's super easy. See Klopp trying to make Liverpool play a little further up the pitch a few years back, and immediately getting disjointed play.)

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

Which successful football clubs actually do this? Go from Moyes to Van Gaal to Mourinho, or from Ole to Ten Hag.

Very few. Even Chelsea, who are synonymous with player power and have zero qualms sacking managers, are following the blueprint Mourinho left behind. Tight at the back, defensive set-ups and cautious football with a heavy dose of pragmatism that is not only tolerated but, quite often, celebrated at The Bridge. Since Abramovic took over, the only manager who deviated from the norm was Sarri (i'm not counting Lampard in because he was bound to manage them at some point, they had to get him out of their system). Mourinho (x2), Benitez, Hiddink, Conte, Ancelotti, Tuchel, Poch, Villas-Boas etc., the specifics may change, but the overarching idea remains the same. There's a method to the madness.

The OP should also find and add to his post the video from Klopp's presentation back in 2016 because he gets asked the big one: "When are Liverpool going to win the PL?". His answer was: "In four years". That's how it would take him to reshape the squad and fully implement his system. Here, you'd have the usual suspects shouting... "but, but, but Brendan finished second with this squad. Why so long?". Because system teams demand a level of micromanaging every single detail to arrive at their final destination.

As for us, i'll repeat the same thing i said when ETH got appointed. If you don't see, along with the new manager, a bus arriving full of experts to whom the task of running the football department will be delegated so that the manager will be able to focus only on what occurs on the training ground and on the pitch, don't expect much. We will continue to set people up to fail. Another thing is that the club has to embrace change and get on with the times. United's recruitment process looks like a Caf thread on the transfer forum. We seem to target players based on what we expect them to become, instead of using the wider context of what they offer and how it can help the existing synergies in the team. Pile on Sancho all you want (and he hasn't done much to help himself) but he is a final third play-maker who wants to see lots of the ball and is also very direct. Why do you need him when you already have Bruno for that role? Shite on Antony day and night. What we paid for was the player with the most progressive passes (by far) and the third most progressive runs per 90 in the Eredivisie, with high workrate and defensive work. Why the hell sign him to pair him with AWB/Dalot and basically nobody from the midfield/attack able to play in the right half-space? It makes no sense. Yet, here we are. There's a reason why the word "rebuild" is derided nowadays. Because this club makes no fecking sense.

 

[el3mel]

I did not include Mourinho to Ole on purpose, cause I can definitely see continuity there. But if you compare Ole's United to Ten Hag's Ajax (which surely was the reason Ten Hag was hired), then there is absolutely no continuity, and you realize that Ten Hag cannot possibly be playing the football he is aiming for right now. And Moyes to Van Gaal plus Van Gaal to Mourinho were huge shifts as well.

Ten Hag isn't playing Ajax like football though. Since first season he has been playing a very pragmatic football, and now this year he said it clearly he's building a transition based team and he can't play like Ajax at United, so the shift hasn't been really that big. The current team plays like how Ole used to, maybe even worse.

Van Gaal is the only one who tried something different but since Mourinho we have been playing the same football.

 

[Cheimoon]

Very few. Even Chelsea, who are synonymous with player power and have zero qualms sacking managers, are following the blueprint Mourinho left behind. Tight at the back, defensive set-ups and cautious football with a heavy dose of pragmatism that is not only tolerated but, quite often, celebrated at The Bridge. Since Abramovic took over, the only manager who deviated from the norm was Sarri (i'm not counting Lampard in because he was bound to manage them at some point, they had to get him out of their system). Mourinho (x2), Benitez, Hiddink, Conte, Ancelotti, Tuchel, Poch, Villas-Boas etc., the specifics may change, but the overarching idea remains the same. There's a method to the madness.

The OP should also find and add to his post the video from Klopp's presentation back in 2016 because he gets asked the big one: "When are Liverpool going to win the PL?". His answer was: "In four years". That's how it would take him to reshape the squad and fully implement his system. Here, you'd have the usual suspects shouting... "but, but, but Brendan finished second with this squad. Why so long?". Because system teams demand a level of micromanaging every single detail to arrive at their final destination.

As for us, i'll repeat the same thing i said when ETH got appointed. If you don't see, along with the new manager, a bus arriving full of experts to whom the task of running the football department will be delegated so that the manager will be able to focus only on what occurs on the training ground and on the pitch, don't expect much. We will continue to set people up to fail. Another thing is that the club has to embrace change and get on with the times. United's recruitment process looks like a Caf thread on the transfer forum. We seem to target players based on what we expect them to become, instead of using the wider context of what they offer and how it can help the existing synergies in the team. Pile on Sancho all you want (and he hasn't done much to help himself) but he is a final third play-maker who wants to see lots of the ball and is also very direct. Why do you need him when you already have Bruno for that role? Shite on Antony day and night. What we paid for was the player with the most progressive passes (by far) and the third most progressive runs per 90 in the Eredivisie, with high workrate and defensive work. Why the hell sign him to pair him with AWB/Dalot and basically nobody from the midfield/attack able to play in the right half-space? It makes no sense. Yet, here we are. There's a reason why the word "rebuild" is derided nowadays. Because this club makes no fecking sense.

Yep, I agree with all that. Great post. (Although I think Tuchel may have been another odd one out for Chelsea.)

 

[Cheimoon]

Ten Hag isn't playing Ajax like football though. Since first season he has been playing a very pragmatic football, and now this year he said it clearly he's building a transition based team and he can't play like Ajax at United, so the shift hasn't been really that big. The current team plays like how Ole used to, maybe even worse.

Van Gaal is the only one who tried something different but since Mourinho we have been playing the same football.

But my entire point here is that I think he is trying to accommodate to squad issue and not playing the football he wants. That might be wishful thinking, but why would the United board hire a coach who did great and was highly sought after specifically because of the way he played at Ajax - only to let him instead implement a drab and boring style at United? That doesn't make sense and also doesn't connect at all to how Ten Hag sees football. I think the conclusion is unavoidable that the current style is Ten Hag's attempt to adapt to United's current circumstances. (And I'll say, again, that he is obviously not doing this very well - but also that it would be irrational to sack him because he isn't good at playing a style he doesn't want with a part of the squad he most likely doesn't want either.)

And that in turn ties back to the thread's starting point: United had a lot of squad turnover to accomplish when Ten Hag was hired, and it makes sense if that process takes a few years to really arrive at a sensible state. I mean, isn't it pretty obvious United isn't quite there yet if you look at the current second-string defenders? I'd argue that Ten Hag would retain almost none of those players if he could swap out players at will, FM style.

 

[tomaldinho1]

You should have a look at atletico Madrid this season. They did not even change their manager but are suddenly playing an exciting attacking style that's far different than the proverbial anti-football they played for a decade under Simeone. Seismic shifts in style are possible.

Athletico really aren't that different, they press a bit higher than last season used to but there's no 'seismic shift' there. Simeone has been trying to evolve them for a while and every season you see articles on them changing something or being more attacking in some way.

 

[Winrar]

It took Ange 2 months pre-season to drill his side and get his side to play how he wants. Sure, they have a thin squad and don't see them challenging for the title long term (as it pertains to this season), but he's seemingly been able to get the best out of what he's got without too much problem.

What has Ten Hag been doing since he became our manager? Why does he and our players still look so out of depth?