Mihajlovic
Its Baltic!
Damn. They were an apartheid state before they even had one.1923
Damn. They were an apartheid state before they even had one.1923
See, that right there is anti-semitismIt was all of those.
What’s your view on the Israeli response to 10-7 ?Damn. They were an apartheid state before they even had one.
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Amnesty International believes that it's from the creation of Israel, before last year I would have said 1967 but an interview that I shared on this thread between two israelis made me realize that it could be 1948. And the following quote was a clue for me:What year exactly did Israel turn into an apartheid state? 1948? Surely not. 1967?
After all Zionism was the opening for the Jewish people to pursue a process of self-determination and that translated quickly into the need for sovereignty and access to power. I think that’s a good thing, but since 1948, and especially 1967, there’s no way to talk about sovereignty or power without talking about Palestinians, those over whom Israel is sovereign and those whom against Israel exercises state power.
Shockingly the planning and ideology of the settler colony was being laid out before 1948Damn. They were an apartheid state before they even had one.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/quot-the-iron-wall-quotWe cannot offer any adequate compensation to the Palestinian Arabs in return for Palestine. And therefore, there is no likelihood of any voluntary agreement being reached. So that all those who regard such an agreement as a condition sine qua non for Zionism may as well say "non" and withdraw from Zionism.
Zionist colonisation must either stop, or else pive population. Which means that it can proceed and develop only under the protection of a power that is independent of the native population – behind an iron wall, which the native population cannot breach.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/quot-the-jewish-state-quot-theodor-herzlIf His Majesty the Sultan were to give us Palestine, we could in return undertake to regulate the whole finances of Turkey. We should there form a portion of a rampart of Europe against Asia, an outpost of civilization as opposed to barbarism.
I gotta say, I'm impressed at how good you are at finding new ways to reveal your ignorance.See, that right there is anti-semitism
Can you blame them when there's no concerted pushback against it?
In my view Israel’s focus must be on destroying the tunnel network, all Hamas’ command centres, rocket launchers, ammunition depots, etc. I think Israel neglected this part for far too long, they got caught out with the kidnapping of Gilad Shalit which was a Gaza-Egypt tunnel, then after 2014 they focused on Gaza-Israel cross-border tunnels, which clearly wasn’t enough, and now, after 07/10, there simply is no way back. So from a military perspective it seems to be far more important to destroy the entire Hamas infrastructure rather than destroying Hamas as an organization. I don’t know how that’s even possible other than identifying and taking out high value targets and, of course, as many militants as possible. But that’s a war I cannot see Israel winning.What’s your view on the Israeli response to 10-7 ?
On the bit about destroying Hamas infrastructure v the organization. I can’t see them doing the former but not the latter since they seem committed to getting rid of them in Gaza once and for all as they won’t want to be back here again in a year or two.In my view Israel’s focus must be on destroying the tunnel network, all Hamas’ command centres, rocket launchers, ammunition depots, etc. I think Israel neglected this part for far too long, they got caught out with the kidnapping of Gilad Shalit which was a Gaza-Egypt tunnel, then after 2014 they focused on Gaza-Israel cross-border tunnels, which clearly wasn’t enough, and now, after 07/10, there simply is no way back. So from a military perspective it seems to be far more important to destroy the entire Hamas infrastructure rather than destroying Hamas as an organization. I don’t know how that’s even possible other than identifying and taking out high value targets and, of course, as many militants as possible. But that’s a war I cannot see Israel winning.
As for the civilian casualties, for all the obvious reasons the only option available to try minimize them as much as possible. According to the IDF that is exactly that they’re doing. Personally, I think the death of even one innocent civilian is abhorrent. Having said that, I’ve lost family members and friends (civilians), butchered in my hometown in Bosnia, 07/10 style, so I understand the darkness that overcomes a person, seeking revenge and retaliation, no matter how disproportionate. I have a friend who lives in a kibbutz near the Gazan border and he tells me he’s finding it hard to recognize himself, his thoughts and feelings, after losing 50+ friends from a neighbouring kibbutz.
This whole f-ing existence is absurd. I still carry the trauma of burying some of my dismembered relatives 30 years ago. Nothing’s ever been the same since then. I’m not giving a moral judgement as to what the average Israeli believes the appropriate response should be, but I do understand.
And yes, before the Caf children jump on me again, I do understand the average Palestinian might be feeling just the same way.
I’m still not clear on the exact numbers, different sources cite different numbers. If the entire organization has ca 50000 people, how many of those are actually military (apparently anything between 15000-35000) and how many are part of the political/ administrative structure. And is it even possible to differentiate between those two. I agree with you on Israel’s intention, but from an operational perspective, especially if hundreds and perhaps thousands can blend into regular civilian population, how does Israel intend to eliminate all of them? However, if you destroy their entire military infrastructure, you’d render them useless. What’s a Hamas fighter without a weapon and without a tunnel On the bit about destroying Hamas infrastructure v the organization. I can’t see them doing the former but not the latter since they seem committed to getting rid of them in Gaza once and for all as they won’t want to be back here again in a year or two.
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I believe the numbers are in the 30-40k range, although many of those are not strictly fighters. Like most military or paramilitary units, they also need everything from medics to logisticians to IT specialists to gophers ferrying information between different tunnel hubs. If you also add in the fact that many of their best fighters have already been expended during the 10/7 attack, then the amount of actual battle hardened fighters goes down quite a bit. I don't believe they will use numbers to fight the Israelis in any case, but will instead rely on traditional urban insurgency tactics.I’m still not clear on the exact numbers, different sources cite different numbers. If the entire organization has ca 50000 people, how many of those are actually military (apparently anything between 15000-35000) and how many are part of the political/ administrative structure. And is it even possible to differentiate between those two. I agree with you on Israel’s intention, but from an operational perspective, especially if hundreds and perhaps thousands can blend into regular civilian population, how does Israel intend to eliminate all of them? However, if you destroy their entire military infrastructure, you’d render them useless. What’s a Hamas fighter without a weapon and without a tunnel
It's heatbreaking and about time to break this cycle.Amidst all the shit that's been going on, and trying to avoid watching images and videos as best as I can,
and trying to somehow go on with life and do my job as a social worker and keeping with touch with friends and family...
[imagine for a moment what it's like to meet someone new and kissing them and sleeping with them,
knowing that at the exact same time some kid must have died, a building got demolished, a hostage is somewhere beneath the earh...
How the feck do you go about that? :/]
I browsed Youtube for football related content,
and somehow came across this little video,
that hurt me much more than any other video I saw from the Israeli side...
I don't know, I wanted to share it here. Don't mean it as point scoring.
Doesn't justify nor negate anything that happens in Gaza. just plain sad.
Excellent reading material as always.This is a decent, though lengthy, summary from Adam Shatz of the various elements that have produced the current situation. Well worth the read in full:
Vengeful Pathologies
That's your first coherent and well thought reply after displaying an astounding amount of ignorance on the topic and expressing it in incendiary, gotcha one liners. Bravo.In my view Israel’s focus must be on destroying the tunnel network, all Hamas’ command centres, rocket launchers, ammunition depots, etc. I think Israel neglected this part for far too long, they got caught out with the kidnapping of Gilad Shalit which was a Gaza-Egypt tunnel, then after 2014 they focused on Gaza-Israel cross-border tunnels, which clearly wasn’t enough, and now, after 07/10, there simply is no way back. So from a military perspective it seems to be far more important to destroy the entire Hamas infrastructure rather than destroying Hamas as an organization. I don’t know how that’s even possible other than identifying and taking out high value targets and, of course, as many militants as possible. But that’s a war I cannot see Israel winning.
As for the civilian casualties, for all the obvious reasons the only option available to try minimize them as much as possible. According to the IDF that is exactly that they’re doing. Personally, I think the death of even one innocent civilian is abhorrent. Having said that, I’ve lost family members and friends (civilians), butchered in my hometown in Bosnia, 07/10 style, so I understand the darkness that overcomes a person, seeking revenge and retaliation, no matter how disproportionate. I have a friend who lives in a kibbutz near the Gazan border and he tells me he’s finding it hard to recognize himself, his thoughts and feelings, after losing 50+ friends from a neighbouring kibbutz.
This whole f-ing existence is absurd. I still carry the trauma of burying some of my dismembered relatives 30 years ago. Nothing’s ever been the same since then. I’m not giving a moral judgement as to what the average Israeli believes the appropriate response should be, but I do understand.
And yes, before the Caf children jump on me again, I do understand the average Palestinian might be feeling just the same way.
‘I’m truly surprised and kinda angry at myself’ that I haven’t told you earlier how much I enjoy irritating pretentious types like yourself who believe they hold the monopoly on all interpretation.That's your first coherent and well thought reply, after displaying an astounding amount of ignorance on the topic and expressing it in incendiary, gotcha one liners. Bravo.
You're still absolutely not willing to understand the conflict in its entirety or take a more nuanced view, and I very much doubt that it will change, but that's progress.
They are everywhere.They're the people who do his laundry and cook his food and serve his dinner. They make his bed. They direct his call. They drive his limo.I never realised hamas was this embedded within the international apparatus, they might even have elected officials in positions of decision making
I thought of mentioning the Algerian War a while back. I read A Savage War of Peace, which is what I consider the main historical breakdown of the war (in English at least).Excellent reading material as always.
I'm truly surprised and kinda angry at myself that I didn' think of the Phillipeville Massacre in 1955 as a more adequate comparison with the 10/7. In fact, it bears a striking resemblance in terms of motives and execution, even if I doubt that it will lead to the same result.
It's also the second time I see Frantz Fanon mentioned and referred to. This man perfectly uderstood the psychological mechanisms unfolding in the minds of the colonized as well as the colonizers.
This is horrific. And backed by USA.Tweet
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But convince me they're only targeting Hamas and their magical tunnels
That must be harrowing. Sending text messages every morning when you wake up and before you go to sleep to your collegues in Gaza, "Are you Alive?"Nurse Emily Callahan from Doctors Without Borders just got evacuated from Gaza and gives an account of what happens in Gaza at the moment.
Two hours of water every twelve hours.
Yeah, the levels of violence after that went through the the roof and it radicalized both sides.I thought of mentioning the Algerian War a while back. I read A Savage War of Peace, which is what I consider the main historical breakdown of the war (in English at least).
Phillipeville was a major turning point in the war. That was when France decided to take the gloves off. They escalated bomb runs in the mountains where the FLN would hide. They created concentration camps for hundreds of thousands of country dwellers, seeking to cut off aid from the FLN rebels. And torture became a common practice in Algiers, Oran and other coastal cities in an attempt to root out rebel cells. Many French citizens and Harkis were tied down in Algeria (to the neglect of other colonies; Algeria was too important to lose). And it worked, military wise! The FLN were decimated, survivors sent running to Tunisia.
However the efforts to pacify L'Algerie ripped mainland France apart. The left was horrified by the reports of torture and indiscriminate killings across the Mediterranean. The populace started to groan about the mounting casualties of their sons sent into a war the government would not even acknowledge was a war (Algeria was French soil by law, so it was treated like an internal affair officially). Meanwhile the right on the mainland, along with the Pied-Noirs in Algeria, concerned the government was not doing enough to sustain the fight, attempted 2 coups, brought about the end of the 4th Republic, forced De Gaulle out of retirement, and engaged in bombings and violence to sabotage the independence negotiations with the FLN. Oh yeah, also the war was expensive, and drained France's coffers.
The war scarred France's psyche and left it's society fractured for years. And the FLN eventually got Algeria.
Much has been postulated about why Hamas would do such a reprehensible act, knowing the backlash in Gaza and the West Bank would be severe. I think they understood that on October 6, Israel maintained their policy of ethnic cleansing and apartheid at minimal cost to them. October 7 changed all of that. Israel is forced to deploy more security within Gaza, in the West Bank, along the border with Lebanon, inside Jerusalem. In my opinion, Hamas is hoping that the cost in terms of weapons and Israeli soldier casualties forces some sort of long term political resolution. Most likely won't play out as immediate as that but time will tell.
Happened in Algeria, South Africa, Vietnam...
Two small things France weren't occupiers in Algeria, Algeria wasn't even a colony, it was an actual french department. And the Fourth Republic was never going to last, first because its structure wasn't popular within parliament but mainly because it was a highly unstable system reminiscent to what you have Belgium today, no stable majority, lots of moving coalitions and governments constantly changing.The FLN also lost the Battle of Algiers (1956-57) and throughout the war was never able to inflict a decisive military defeat to France like the Viet Minh, who were a major inspiration, did at Dien Bien Phu in 1954. Although the FLN was militarily significantly weakened, they never were decimated, could still carry out hit-and-run operations. Enough to make the occupier never feel safe. More importantly and never disappeared from the political front. The Algerian War morally dragged France through the mud due in no small part to the systematic use of torture, summary executions, indiscriminate bombings, collective punishments and forced displacements. It ripped France apart as you said, and was one of the decisive factors leading to the fall of the french Fourth Republic, which already had its own internal problems. @JPRouve can maybe tell us more about what happened in France back then and either complete or correct my statements.
I agree whole-heartedly with this entire piece, except the bit about strong support of what Netanyahu is doing. Several outlets reported 49% of Israelis didn't want a ground offensive in Gaza, two weeks ago anyway. I feel like as emotions cool that will trend upwards, but couldn't find anything more recent.People who think that Hamas did it for the lols and because "muh, terrorism", without any long game in mind, can't be taken seriously. They're either uniformed or willfully ignorant. Terrorism is a means to an end, said end being either political or religious, or both. Terrorism can manifest itself in very different forms and is certainly not the privilege of a non-state actor. Hamas knew exactly what they were doing when they carried out the 10/7 massacre as well as they perfectly knew how Israel would react.
What Hamas achieved is for everyone there to choose a side. They're banking on blood and hate. They forced the international community to look at the situation there, and with the massive help of social media brought Palestine on the map like never before. They made every single major actor in the region rethink their current strategy. There are massive manifestations across the world in favor of Palestine. Netanyahu's government is doomed. They don't care about how many palestinians lives will be lost in the process, or the suffering that will ensue. On the contrary, the more the better. They also don't care about the loss of thousands of their own fighters who were willing to die anyway. Their leadership is out of Gaza and even if Israel manages to kill all of them, which is reaaally doubtful, they'll be replaced anyway. Or reappear in a different form. That's their mindset in my opinion and I have no doubt in my mind that they have contingency plans to replace the dead and keep Hamas alive one way or another. That's how these organizations survive.
The insane and completely counter-productive Israeli bombing strategy with no regards for human loss as well as the literal pogroms happening in the West Bank, about which no one is really talking, will replenish their ranks in no time. It might well give them an even stronger foothold in the West Bank since the corrupt, disgraced and undermined (by Netanyahu) PA has been unable to achieve anything decent for the Palestinians living in the Occupied Territories and can't even defend its own citizens from being killed and preventing their homes from being burned down. Israel's strategy right now is achieving everything Hamas has hoped for and then some more.
Netanyahu bred and fed a monster for his own delusional purposes, thinking that he's tamed it, and it's now biting him back in the ass. The IDF will also lose an awful lot of soldiers in the ground invasion about which we will certainly not hear before a couple of years, but it won't play that much of a role in the short-term since the Israeli population is currently massively in favor of the war anyway. Unless the losses are absolutely catastrophic.
One also should never lose sight that it is a tragic episode that inserts itself in the context of a colonial war. Any attempt to reduce it to an unprovoked terrorist attack is foolish, dishonest and ultimately counter-productive.
What's this "most killed by IDF"? I have yet to see major Western sources report on this claim.George Galloway tweet claims, about the 10/7 attack:
- Israeli Govt has dropped the allegations that rapes were carried out
- 40 beheaded babies dropped
- two thirds of the Israeli dead were military personnel
- of the third non military killed, most killed by IDF
Same reports coming from people on the inside. I wrote similar a few days back about what a friend of a friend who is inside was saying.
It's really hard to know what is true and what is not when both sides just use propaganda and lies. I am however convinced that the IDF and Hamas are equally bad and both sides couldn't care less about civilian lives.Videos of Israeli forces using human shields being sent and seen.
Something the IDF always claims is Hamas uses human shields. Usually in the form of "hiding amongst civilians".
Previous reports from independent sources show IDF walking behind bound Palestinians, using them as shields.
Video I have been sent is a woman in a hijab/jilbab, hands tied behind her back, with soldiers walking behind her fully armed. One soldier has his rifle on her shoulder. Basically any return fire and she is dead first.
It's @Roane . Take him with a grain of salt.It's really hard to know what is true and what is not when both sides just use propaganda and lies. I am however convinced that the IDF and Hamas are equally bad and both sides couldn't care less about civilian lives.
What's this "most killed by IDF"? I have yet to see major Western sources report on this claim.