Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[Halftrack]

I kindly ask you to read it again. And then reply again. Thank you.

No, I think I got it right. The discussion was about children being detained indefinitely under military law for throwing rocks, and you responded to a post defending it with a vague example of something you presumably think warrants the same treatment.

 

[2cents]

I got my cases mixed up - it’s Shorouq that was shot: https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/...of-female-palestinian-prisoners-await-release

Not Israa.

The initial tweet you posted is clearly about Israa Jaabis, and seems to include a fairly significant misrepresentation of what happened to her.

 

[nickm]

It’s an open source website that anyone with an internet connection can edit. It also says in the first line ‘according to Israeli authorities’. You can use your internet connection to read up on the case.

Try harder doob.


One of the items that Israa’ carried with her was a propane tank for the kitchen. It would have been too expensive to buy a brand new one in Jerusalem. As she was leaving Jericho, the engine of her car died twice. Young people in the town warned her to turn around and find another form of transportation, but she did not heed their advice. She needed to get to Jerusalem to her new job at a nursing home. Each time her car died, the engine emitted a burning smell.

After travelling a couple of kilometers outside the Israeli Al-Za’ayem military checkpoint, near the illegal Jewish settlement of Ma’ale Adumim and a short distance east of Al-Quds, Israa’s car died again. No soldiers or army vehicles were in sight. A while later, a retired Israeli police officer passed by her stalled car. He parked his car in front of hers and asked for her ID as she desperately tried to restart the car. “There is a strong smell in the car,” she told him, trying to exit the car, but he insisted that she stay inside while he examined her papers.

She tried to open the windows, but they, too, were affected by the electrical failure. Again, she tried to exit the car, opening the door, but the officer rushed over and slammed it shut, crushing her hand. She yelled “Allahu Akbar ’alaiku” (God is greater than you are), chastising him several times for not allowing her to escape. She urged him to let her out as fire ignited in the front part of the car. He refused. He stood there, watching her burn inside. The airbag deployed, completely trapping her inside the blazing car.

The police officer who stopped her claimed that she was trying to use the propane tank to blow up the car. His testimony was the only one considered in the Israeli court, and Israa’ was branded a ‘terrorist’. She was sentenced to 11 years in prison. She is now serving her term at HaSharon prison inside Israel, and is denied much needed medical attention. After her debilitating injuries and imprisonment, her husband also suffered a car accident, leaving him permanently disabled and confined to a wheelchair. Their son, Mu’tasim, is now living with his grandmother in Jerusalem.

At least post your source.

The source, since you didn't provide it.

 

[Jippy]

This thread is plumbing new depths if Douglas Murray is getting praised.

 

[HTG]

The argument about the unverified shit sources is 100% right. It is a travesty that a surprisingly good discussion on the topic regularly gets derailed, by some people who post the worst and most biased sources there are. And it baffles me that some genuinely seem to believe, that this is an adequate response towards the involved parties engaging in propaganda. Because if anything, that should be reason for even more caution.

 

[ZupZup]

And So I repeat, for me his reaction to Filkenstein interview was absolutely spot on. I guess it says more about the original interview than the rebuttal.

Why was his reaction spot on? He started with stating angrily that we know exactly what happened on 7th October. Do we, really? We’ve had multiple cases of misinformation since, about beheaded babies etc. It was 1,400 civilian and military casualties, and then revised down to 1,200. For the most part, what we have had is an Israeli packaged version of the events. Now, I want to make it clear that I am sure Hamas committed horrific crimes, but the idea we know exactly what happened based on Israel’s comments and provided evidence is untrue.

He then went on a tirade about how remains of bodies in some cases were minimal due to being damaged by fire. Again, something that doesn’t have any relevance to Norman’s points whatsoever. There’s still doubt following Israeli eye witness testimony, as to whether, some of the houses in the Kibbutzum were not destroyed by Israeli shelling. Again, another case of not knowing exactly what happened.

Lastly he cynically accused him of weaponising his parents’ experience of being Holocaust survivors. It was Piers who brought them up repeatedly, not Norman. In fact, when he is interviewed, it’s almost always the interviewer who brings up his parents, not him.

All Murray did was talk absolute waffle in a posh accent and throw in a few insults for good measure.

 

[The Corinthian]

The initial tweet you posted is clearly about Israa Jaabis, and seems to include a fairly significant misrepresentation of what happened to her.

The initial tweet is about Israa and I’m not saying she was shot*. The car did explode, and she was denied the right medical aid and convicted on flimsy grounds. Do you think that is misrepresented?

If you look at the specific parts of the tweet thread I posted it was centred on that.

* that was the part where I got 2 cases mixed.

 

[The Corinthian]

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On a timely note, here she is back with her family.

 

[That_Bloke]

The argument about the unverified shit sources is 100% right. It is a travesty that a surprisingly good discussion on the topic regularly gets derailed, by some people who post the worst and most biased sources there are. And it baffles me that some genuinely seem to believe, that this is an adequate response towards the involved parties engaging in propaganda. Because if anything, that should be reason for even more caution.

Excellent post.

 

[2cents]

she was denied the right medical aid and convicted on flimsy grounds. Do you think that is misrepresented?

I don’t know, and based on what you’ve posted about the case here I don’t think you know either.

If you look at the specific parts of the tweet thread I posted it was centred on that.

The first centred tweet makes no sense as a stand-alone without the context given in the previous one, which states that the explosion was caused by soldiers randomly shooting her car (which you have since conceded did not happen).

You also wrote “Whole thread is worth a read.”

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

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Hypernormalisation

 

[Ekkie Thump]

It’s an open source website that anyone with an internet connection can edit.

This is not exactly true and you can verify this by trying to edit Israa's page for yourself. If you look, the page has a padlock top right. This affords the page a degree of protection. You can look at the page's discussion history to see the apparently endless arguments, edits and reedits that have taken place.

One of the items that Israa’ carried with her was a propane tank for the kitchen. It would have been too expensive to buy a brand new one in Jerusalem. As she was leaving Jericho, the engine of her car died twice. Young people in the town warned her to turn around and find another form of transportation, but she did not heed their advice. She needed to get to Jerusalem to her new job at a nursing home. Each time her car died, the engine emitted a burning smell.

After travelling a couple of kilometers outside the Israeli Al-Za’ayem military checkpoint, near the illegal Jewish settlement of Ma’ale Adumim and a short distance east of Al-Quds, Israa’s car died again. No soldiers or army vehicles were in sight. A while later, a retired Israeli police officer passed by her stalled car. He parked his car in front of hers and asked for her ID as she desperately tried to restart the car. “There is a strong smell in the car,” she told him, trying to exit the car, but he insisted that she stay inside while he examined her papers.

She tried to open the windows, but they, too, were affected by the electrical failure. Again, she tried to exit the car, opening the door, but the officer rushed over and slammed it shut, crushing her hand. She yelled “Allahu Akbar ’alaiku” (God is greater than you are), chastising him several times for not allowing her to escape. She urged him to let her out as fire ignited in the front part of the car. He refused. He stood there, watching her burn inside. The airbag deployed, completely trapping her inside the blazing car.

The police officer who stopped her claimed that she was trying to use the propane tank to blow up the car. His testimony was the only one considered in the Israeli court, and Israa’ was branded a ‘terrorist’. She was sentenced to 11 years in prison. She is now serving her term at HaSharon prison inside Israel, and is denied much needed medical attention. After her debilitating injuries and imprisonment, her husband also suffered a car accident, leaving him permanently disabled and confined to a wheelchair. Their son, Mu’tasim, is now living with his grandmother in Jerusalem.

You should cite your source if quoting it.

Here's the same news outlet describing the same incident back in 2018:

Jaabis was driving in her car, roughly 500 meters from an Israeli military checkpoint when the car broke down. Israeli soldiers began shooting at the car and the bullets penetrated a canister of cooking fuel, causing it to explode. The car was set ablaze with Israa inside.

At first blush the source you are citing isn't particularly consistent in its reporting and seems primarily focussed on presenting Israelis in the most monstrous light possible.

Here's ADDAMEER (the Palestinian NGO providing Israa with a lawyer) describing the same event:

When she came close to Al-Z’ayyem military checkpoint, the airbag in her car opened which caused a fire to start in the car. Israa told “Addameer”’s lawyer who visited her in Hasharon prison that “The car caught fire without me noticing, so I got out quickly, a police officer came to me with a raised weapon and started yelling at me to ‘drop the knife’ in Hebrew, I didn’t have a knife. Another officer commanded the soldiers to open fire”. “I stayed on the ground for around 15 minutes before the ambulance came.” She added.
https://www.addameer.org/prisoner/israa-al-jaabes

That sounds bad enough on its own.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

This thread is plumbing new depths if Douglas Murray is getting praised.

Yes, it's grim but not surprising tbh.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

You ever been hit in the head by a rock?

You ever been shot in the head with a bullet?

 

[The Corinthian]

I don’t know, and based on what you’ve posted about the case here I don’t think you know either.

Why don’t you read up on it? I have.

The first centred tweet makes no sense as a stand-alone without the context given in the previous one, which states that the explosion was caused by soldiers randomly shooting her car (which you have since conceded did not happen).

You also wrote “Whole thread is worth a read.”

She suffered horrific injuries due to the car explosion. She was then denied the right medical aid. The other tweet highlights this. The whole thread is worth a read as it’s symptomatic of how Israelis treat Palestinians.

Let’s put your thoughts on that specific case to one side.

Do you think Palestinians are given fair trials in Israelis courts?

Do you think the reasons Israel gives (generally) to hold Palestinians indefinitely by Israel is fair and legal?

 

[2cents]

Why don’t you read up on it? I have.

I have read up a bit on it, and based on what I’ve read I am not prepared to come to a firm conclusion about the details of the case, certainly not to the extent that I would be happy to confidently post about it in this thread.

She suffered horrific injuries due to the car explosion. She was then denied the right medical aid. The other tweet highlights this. The whole thread is worth a read as it’s symptomatic of how Israelis treat Palestinians.

Given that the thread’s framing of the entire incident rests on what appears to be a lie, why would anyone with that knowledge bother taking the rest of it seriously or even bother reading it?

Let’s put your thoughts on that specific case to one side.

Yes let’s put the disinformation you have (once again) posted to one side.

Do you think Palestinians are given fair trials in Israelis courts?

Do you think the reasons Israel gives (generally) to hold Palestinians indefinitely by Israel is fair and legal?

No to both. Hence why I am not prepared to accept the ruling of the Israeli court in this case at face value either.

 

[Dirty Schwein]

I will be honest with you. I had absolutely no idea of Douglas Murray existence before all of this (not being from UK). After brief research I would probably disagree with him on majority of issues. But we are adult enough to separate the message from messenger. So I repeat, for me his reaction to Filkenstein interview was absolutely spot on. I guess it says more about the original interview than the rebuttal.

So you think Norman F. is a holocaust denier? And that there's a live holocaust happening right now?

 

[Giggsy PO]

No, I think I got it right. The discussion was about children being detained indefinitely under military law for throwing rocks, and you responded to a post defending it with a vague example of something you presumably think warrants the same treatment.

That vague example is called Pisgat Ze'ev stabbings. I prefer perpetrators of crimes to be dealt with in due legal process. Rather then this:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...088742-8ba6-11ee-a36e-fdb7be9bd43d_story.html

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

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[Giggsy PO]

So you think Norman F. is a holocaust denier?

You tell me. People go berserk about Douglas Murray but praising David Irving seems to be fine:

The US academic used his talk to activists of the LATW group - which was formed to support activists expelled from Labour over antisemitism allegations – to argue his point that no subject should be out of bounds for debate.

Dismissing suggestions that you should be labelled an antisemite if you denied the Holocaust or if you “call Jews killers of Christ”, Mr Finkelstein said: "I don’t know if Jews killed Christ or not – those are things that should be debated and you come up with your own conclusions.”

Mr Finkelstein – whose own parents were the only members of his family to survive the Holocaust – then moved on to praise David Irving, who was labelled an “antisemite and racist” by a High Court judge after famously losing his libel suit against the historian Deborah Lipstadt.

He said: “David Irving was a very good historian – I don’t care what Richard Evans (the historian who was a key player in the Lipstadt libel trial) says. He produced works that are substantive…If you don’t like it, don’t read it. In the case of Irving, he knew a thing or two – or three.”

Mr Finkelstein continued: “I don’t see the reason to get excited about Holocaust deniers. First of all I don’t know what a Holocaust denier even is.

“People say if you deny the centrality of the six million Jews being killed and you try to bring in other groups of people you become a Holocaust denier.

“Other people say if you deny the centrality of the gas chambers you become a Holocaust denier.”

Addressing what he said was “the question of numbers”, Mr Finkelstein said: “How many were killed? Those are statistical scholarly questions.

“Why can’t we answer a number with a number and present our sources?”

And that there's a live holocaust happening right now?

No, it is not.

 

[africanspur]

That vague example is called Pisgat Ze'ev stabbings. I prefer perpetrators of crimes to be dealt with in due legal process. Rather then this:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...088742-8ba6-11ee-a36e-fdb7be9bd43d_story.html

And how do you prefer that Palestinian minors held under indefinite administrative detention are dealt with? How's that for due legal process?

 

[Dirty Schwein]

You tell me. People go berserk about Douglas Murray but praising David Irving seems to be fine:





No, it is not.

That doesn't make him a holocaust denier. And we agree, no live holocaust happening right now.

EDIT: (took a while to find the website but here's a quote from Norman)

It was no mystery from whence my mother’s impassioned response sprang. The devastating firepower of the Americans, on the one hand, and the utter defenselessness of the Vietnamese, on the other; the indifference or, at any rate, scandalously incommensurate response, of the rest of humanity to the ongoing genocide: it was the Nazi holocaust all over again. And such was her exceptional humanity that my mother literally couldn’t bear for anyone to suffer as she had. Neither of my parents ever let go of “the war.” They couldn’t, and were it even possible, wouldn’t have wanted to. Never to forget, Never to forgive — this was how they lived, and died. It wasn’t just bitterness over what had befallen them, although there was plenty of that; not forgetting or forgiving was the minimum they owed to those who had perished. I once had dinner with two Unitarian friends, both married to German-born women who had been in the Hitler Youth. The subject eventually came around to the Nazi holocaust, and one of the wives whined, “How much longer must we keep hearing about it?” “My parents lived with the Nazi holocaust until the last day of their lives,” I coldly thought, “so you can live with it until the last day of yours.”

Source: Haunted House - Norman Finklestein

I don't know the context behind his endorsement of Irving, but Norman appears to be a complicated man so I don't know exactly what he's referring to, possibly that Irving had some good insight into WW2 from the Nazi perspective? Dunno. But I dont think he's denies that the holocaust happened.

Douglas Murray is a soundbite merchant and shouldn't be listened to. Especially after he shat his pants when Piers offered him to debate Norman.

Happy for people to have an opinion on Norman, as you clearly do but labelling someone a holocaust denier without concrete proof/more rational explanation is a bit silly, especially as he talks about his parents surviving the holocaust.

 

[africanspur]

Why don’t you read up on it? I have.


She suffered horrific injuries due to the car explosion. She was then denied the right medical aid. The other tweet highlights this. The whole thread is worth a read as it’s symptomatic of how Israelis treat Palestinians.

Let’s put your thoughts on that specific case to one side.

Do you think Palestinians are given fair trials in Israelis courts?

Do you think the reasons Israel gives (generally) to hold Palestinians indefinitely by Israel is fair and legal?

The problem with this kind of stuff is that there are countless examples of Israelis treating Palestinians in a truly awful way. Posting stuff tjwy turns out to be unverified and potentially a gray area only makes sole people less likely to believe the genuinely awful crap they pull on a regular basis.

I think it's probably having the opposite effect of what you intend it to.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

You tell me. People go berserk about Douglas Murray but praising David Irving seems to be fine:

The way those quotes are presented and cut up makes them sound worse than what he actually said.

"I would say that goes to using terms like antisemitic or antisemite. Tony Greenstein, I agree with him on actually quite a lot, but when he says like "if you call Jews killers of Christ you are an antisemite, if you engage in Holocaust denial you are an antisemite." I think Mr. Wadsworth said, if I understood him correctly, and I might be wrong here, he opposed the publication of David Irving's Diaries of Goebbels because Irving is a Hitler apologist.

I think all of that, the labels like antisemite... I don't know if Jews killed Christ or not, frankly I don't care all that much, it doesn't keep me up late at night or exercise me when I get up in the morning, but these are things that can be debated, disputed, and you can come to your own conclusions. Did the Jews do it or not? Well, Mel Gibson did his film The Passion of the Christ. He seemed to started off by blaming it on Jews on the temple, then he was forced to change the script. I don't see why he should be forced to change anything. Express your point of view, if somebody disagrees with it, let them disagree. I don't see why one has to get so excited about it.

In the case of David Irving, well, he was a very good historian, I don't care what Richard Evans said. He was a very good historial, he produced works which were substantive. I happen to have read his book on Goebbels, he had stolen the plates of the diaries and then wrote a book on it. I thought the book was frankly mediocre. But it certainly should have been published. There are 1000 mediocre books published each month. So if it falls in the category of mediocre, OK, not a big deal. I don't see why one would want to stop publication of it. If you don't like it, don't read it. In the case of Irving, he knew a thing or two. Actually, he knew a thing or two, or three. He is competent, so far as I can tell."

"I don't see the reason to get excited about Holocaust deniers. First of all, I don't know what it is. Some people say if you deny the centrality of 6 million Jews being killed and you bring in other groups of people, you become a Holocaust denier. Other people say if you deny the centrality of the gas chambers, you become a Holocaust denier. Then by that standard, Daniel Goldhagen, the author of Hitler's Willing Executioners, the best selling --, he's a Holocaust denier, because he said the core of the Holocaust did not happen in the gas chambers but in the killing fields. Then the fella who made the 12-hour film Shoah, Lanzmann, he started to accuse Goldhagen of being a Holocaust denier because Lanzmann focused on the gas chambers. And then the question of the numbers, like how many were killed... These are statistical, scholarly questions. Why can't we answer with a number and present our sources? Some African Americans will tell you 100 million Africans perished in the middle passage. I was very surprised when I read Robert Blackburn's history of slavery and he put the number at 1.2 million. I'm almost certain of that. Does that mean that Robin Blackburn is a slave trade denier? Or do we just go through the numbers, evaluate, assess, as any serious scholar does? I don't see the point of becoming hysterical over these issues. You patiently weight through the evidence, if you don't agree, you explain why. I don't believe in censoring these people, including I have to say, censoring the rapper Mr. Wiley. If you don't like it, get off of Twitter and maybe crack a book. That might be an exciting adventure for you.

I'm much more exercised by Mark Regev appearing so respectfully on British television justifying the murder, in the case of Operation Protective Edge, justifying the murder of 550 Palestinian children, justifying the destruction of 80,000 Palestinian homes. That really makes me very indignant, very angry, he has the right to do it, but it makes me angrier than what Mr. Wiley has to say about the Holocaust. In the same way, Kanye West says lunatic things every day. He said slavery couldn't have been so bad because slaves accepted it for 400 years. Then he said H-arriet Tubman didn't really free slaves because she ended up finding them jobs with other white employers. As if her responsibility was not just to get african americans out of slavery, but a responsibility to give them a lifetime pension. Rappers say stupid things, lunatic things, I think it's your problem to look from political wisdom from a rapper. In my stupid youth I looked for political wisdom from Jane Fonda and Vanessa Redgrave. That was dumb, I agree. But to get hysterical, get exercised, I don't see that at all. If you want to get exercised, get exercised for people who are apologizing in public for crimes that are being committed in real time. Not about what someone has to say about the Nazi holocaust, slavery, or the middle passage. Maybe it's dumb, but we can open our normal protocol of separating the truth from lies."

 

[Kaos]

I will be honest with you. I had absolutely no idea of Douglas Murray existence before all of this (not being from UK). After brief research I would probably disagree with him on majority of issues. But we are adult enough to separate the message from messenger. So I repeat, for me his reaction to Filkenstein interview was absolutely spot on. I guess it says more about the original interview than the rebuttal.

It absolutely does worth bearing the nature of the messenger as well as the message itself. I suspect you always take whatever statements from Hamas with a pinch of salt and understandably so, why so would you then offer more credibility for someone who has their own wider agenda, and one that's notoriously laden with bigoted, ill-researched sentiment?

Even if you ignore Murray's motivations, his rebuttal was also nonsense if you take it at face value. He accused Finkelstein of exploiting his family's experiences with the holocaust to justify his sentiments which is nonsense considering Finkelstein historically doesn't like using the holocaust card, and in this instance it was Piers Morgan who brought it into the conversation. Not to mention his complete and utter adherence to the Israeli side of events, which recent history has shown us is far beyond the realms of authentic or objective.

His whole segment was a joke, he was gratuitously given a 5 minute uninterrupted monologue by Piers Morgan for him to spout his nonsense, and when asked as to whether he would debate Finkelstein, he turned it down. You'd think someone confident with their convictions would jump at the opportunity to cross-examine someone like Finkelstein personally.

 

[Giggsyking]

He probably also meant a well know children game - chase and stab your fellow children friend with a kitchen knife.

When I say the thread can not go lower, you surprise me with yet a mind boggling post. How are you still allowed to post here I can not comprehend.

 

[adexkola]

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Language is a choice

 

[Wibble]

I hope Biden and the Democrats eat shit in every election henceforth until he kicks the bucket and some sane voices emerge from that shitshow of a political system they have there. Unfortunately all this will be too late for the majority of the Palestinian population.

Trump and The Republicans would be 10x worse.

 

[Giggsyking]

That vague example is called Pisgat Ze'ev stabbings. I prefer perpetrators of crimes to be dealt with in due legal process. Rather then this:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...088742-8ba6-11ee-a36e-fdb7be9bd43d_story.html

Your posts here has been nothing but a disgrace and thought it is better to ignore your posts, but then said I will try one last time. What has your example anything to do with the primary discussions about hundreds of palestanian children in Israeli prison for throwing rocks at the fecking occupying military personal?

Hundreds of Palestinian minors jailed for throwing stones, says report
Nearly all teenagers caught throwing rocks are handed prison sentences, according to human rights group B'Tselem
One out of more than 800 Palestinian children charged with throwing stones in the West Bank over a six-year period was acquitted, according to the Israeli human rights group B'Tselem.
Ninety-three percent of the 834 under-18s who were convicted were given prison sentences by the Israeli military courts, including 19 children aged 12 and 13. The sentences ranged from a few days to 20 months. The imprisonment of Israeli children under the age of 14 is not allowed. B'Tselem said it based its figures on data provided by the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) and relating to the years 2005-10. Most of the minors were aged 16 and 17, but 255 were 14 or 15, with 34 under 14.

and this is before they tightened the sentence of throwing rocks.

Give your head a fecking wobble.

 

[HTG]

The problem with this kind of stuff is that there are countless examples of Israelis treating Palestinians in a truly awful way. Posting stuff tjwy turns out to be unverified and potentially a gray area only makes sole people less likely to believe the genuinely awful crap they pull on a regular basis.

I think it's probably having the opposite effect of what you intend it to.

Thank you. My point exactly. A single shitty source devalues countless good ones this way. We have so many terrible atrocities happening right now, there is absolutely no need to use these shady and biased sources.

 

[Giggsyking]

Dont let apartheid apologists fool you.

 

[That_Bloke]

The problem with this kind of stuff is that there are countless examples of Israelis treating Palestinians in a truly awful way. Posting stuff tjwy turns out to be unverified and potentially a gray area only makes sole people less likely to believe the genuinely awful crap they pull on a regular basis.

I think it's probably having the opposite effect of what you intend it to.

Absolutely and it angers me when I see people posting anything, absolutely anything to push their own agenda without realizing that it actually hurts the cause and makes an easy job for the other side to pick it apart and discredit them.

Stick to the facts, post something from a reputable source, preferably not from a dubious Twitter account.

 

[Raoul]

Trump and The Republicans would be 10x worse.

Particularly a 2nd Trump term when he’s out for revenge

 

[That_Bloke]

That vague example is called Pisgat Ze'ev stabbings. I prefer perpetrators of crimes to be dealt with in due legal process. Rather then this:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...088742-8ba6-11ee-a36e-fdb7be9bd43d_story.html

Palestinians have every right to resist the occupation of their territories and that includes armed resistance, that's not me saying it but the international law. Soldiers and military checkpoints or bases are legitimate targets but not civilians, under any circumstances. The same right to self-defense that's been hammered ad nauseam by well, everyone, can't be invoked by Israel because it's an occupying power.

Israel has been on the wrong side of History since 1967 (and that's letting the Nakba in 1948 slide) and no amount of mental gymnastics and/or victim blaming will ever change that.

 

[Raoul]

Human Rights Watch’s conclusion

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[That_Bloke]

Human Rights Watch’s conclusion

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Not surprised at all and it's the most logical conclusion for me.

 

[Raoul]

Some interesting back and forth here on the legal status of Palestinians being released in the hostage deal.

Maybe @Amir can corroborate the Hebrew article cited below.

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Spoiler: More here…

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[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

Trump and The Republicans would be 10x worse.

This. Everytime this.

 

[VorZakone]

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[calodo2003]

Third hostage release is in the books...

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