Who replaces Ten Hag?

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I think that we are entering unique territory here. Because in our new structure, the manager is not responsible for scouting and recruiting players. They just have to manage the players that they are given. Everything else is taken care of by others. People who are experts at finding the right players.

BUT, and this is really important. For this entire structure to work, you need to settle on a footballing philosophy. A way that the team is going to set up. A style of play. This underpins every other decision.

As things stand, we have no idea what Ten Hag's style of play is. Either he is naively trying to implement something that the players are unable to adopt, or don't understand. The most damning thing is that we have been wide open from the first game of the season. And we are still wide open seven months later. We are conceding on average 22 shots per game. We have scored less goals than Luton Town. We are rubbish up front, and at the back.

Some of it is proper schoolboy stuff, you are sat watching in total disbelief. We can go 2 nill up, and then concede 3. We can't string 3 passes together without giving the ball back to the opposition. We are hanging on in every game. Even again Luton Town. Newport County put 2 past us. They had 17 shots. Let that sink in. Newport County had 17 shots. Only ten less than Man City on Sunday.

You can blame the players, you can look at the injuries. But after that Wolves home game in August, you would be back at training the following day and you'd be trying to fix all those red flags that you witnessed. You'd be looking at the gaps in midfield, the runners not being tracked. An opposition strolling into your box, a simple pull back to an unmarked player. You would look at that and try to fix it. But still we see it. Every week, every opposition, the same move. The same goal conceded.

You can only look at that and come to the conclusion that Ten Hag is not the man for this job. He is not learning from mistakes. He's pushing everyone up for an unconvincing press. And even with a high press, they are not scoring from it. And then the opposition are having a field day with all the space in behind. It's a mess. The whole thing is a shambles.
 
Sky Sports News were saying he's in talks with Bayern today and that the talks are progressing well. Think he'll be there in the summer, if not then Liverpool. I reckon Liverpool will look at De Zerbi, Amorim or Nagelsmann, Chelsea will look at De Zerbi and Inzaghi, based on reports recently.
Inzaghi to Chelsea makes the most sense, or even Amorim. The lord knows they’ve enough CB’s for their preferred formation :lol:. Gosh, I hope bayern snatch up Alonso. He seems to be the real deal but I guess on the flip side, anyone following Klopp will have a near impossible job.

But yeah, could be quite a manager merry go round come this summer with a high possibility that all of Liverpool, Bayern, ourselves, Chelsea and possibly even Newcastle looking for new managers - and that pool of potential top quality managers out there being so small. Hell, even Barca could be looking for a new manager.
 
I've said this from day one, nobody who takes over the club will get it right from the get go. They'll make mistakes. What will set them apart is how well they recognise these and learn. Ashworth and Berrada could be mistakes, who knows? But I'd be more surprised if they got every appointment right from the start.

The Glazers downfall was their inability to learn these mistakes. We've invested a hell of a lot of money but they never implemented a proper structure, and instead let a novice in Woodward run the show. That was their downfall. They could have done everything INEOS are now doing.

I would argue Arsenal are one of the best ran clubs around, right now. However, just a few years ago, the Kroenkes didn't see know or care what they were doing with the club.

Abramovich made a lot of bad decisions at Chelsea. Even Real Madrid had a period where they were struggling for a decade under Florentino Pérez.

I'm sure there are also a lot of other examples where the owners had good intentions but still made a couple of bad decisions.

If Ineos have serious ambitions, intend to invest a huge amount of money into club, and are capable of learning from their mistakes, I think they'll inevitably be great owners of the club.
 
I agree. Losing Mitoma is a huge blow to their run in now too.
He shouldn’t need any specific players to be fit to implement his style of play or be any more successful so stop making excuses for De Zerbi. It’s people like you that are lowering the standards of Brighton.
I don’t actually think this because that would be a silly thing to think.
 
Inzaghi to Chelsea makes the most sense, or even Amorim. The lord knows they’ve enough CB’s for their preferred formation :lol:. Gosh, I hope bayern snatch up Alonso. He seems to be the real deal but I guess on the flip side, anyone following Klopp will have a near impossible job.

But yeah, could be quite a manager merry go round come this summer with a high possibility that all of Liverpool, Bayern, ourselves, Chelsea and possibly even Newcastle looking for new managers - and that pool of potential top quality managers out there being so small. Hell, even Barca could be looking for a new manager.

Xavi announced that he's stepping down at the end of the season so they will be looking as well. It will certainly be interesting to see who ends up where
 
Are you a diplomat? Do you take the heat out of arguments in work and socially ?

Quite the opposite. I love nothing more than a good row with idiots. But in this case both sides have a point.
 
Of course you jump at the opportunity to slander Nice as soon as they go on a bad run :lol:

This is once again a flawed way of thinking on your part, what the hell is the owner supposed to do? Ratcliffe hired a young sporting director in Ghisolfi, who then hired Farioli, and they started off very well, good football, good results, as well as signing decent talents.

Ratcliffe isn't the manager, no owner can make 100% foolproof appointments, and no owner can do anything to avoid ever having a bad run of form, even if they get every appointment right and invest money into the club.

Also no one's ever said that he got it right at Nice, but they're undeniably much better run than when Ineos bought them in 2019, as they've also admitted to having made many mistakes, but that they also learned from it. These are their own words.

Exactly many mistakes so hopefully not as many at Man United, Nice are currently 5th that’s the best position they’ve finished under INEOS and will be lucky to finish 6th or 7th this season, , sound familiar do you think for one second that if Zidane’s agent picked up the phone to INEOS especially as he’s very close to Jean Claude Blanc and may see the project as far more interesting now.?

I’m not saying we should chase Zidane but United need an experienced coach who knows how to win more so than a rookie coach who will be turned on the moment the loses two or three games on the trot!

Don’t shoot the messenger but many United fans nowadays are impatient and will not allow the next rookie coach or INEOS the time this strategy requires.
 
Here’s the criteria;

1. Must be able to work with DOF
2. Must play front foot attacking football
3. Must have won a domestic league in the top 5 leagues.
4. Preferably knows how to bring young players through and works intensively with the academy.
5. Preferably would have won a CL/Europa League or at least got to last 4 of CL.
6. Has a 60-65% win rate
7. Is Flexible to adapt tactics per game and not stubborn.
8. Preferably has PL experience but not essential for a European Elite Manager.

That type of Criteria means the following are not options - Graham Potter, Roberto De Zerbie

Options - Hansi Flick, Zinedine Zidane, Thomas Tuchel, Julian Naigelsman, Roberto Mancini, Luis Enrique, Antonio Conte, Simeone Inzaghi.

They are the options, some are available and not working, some already manage huge clubs and some need convincing that United under Ineos are going to be serious contenders going forward?

Im sorry but I disagree with the top 5 league thing. How is Nagelsmann winning the Bundesliga a bigger managerial achievement than say Amorim winning Liga NOS with Sporting when they were 3rd favourites? Or winning the League Cup with Braga?

I think Nagelsmann is a very good option for us but to discount someone like Amorim on that basis would be negligent.
 
I don’t find any of the names being mentioned very inspiring tbh.

If we end up with Potter I’d be very disappointed. Would rather McKenna back, or even Ole with the new structure bloody Potter.
 
Amorim is the ideal candidate. He's young at just 39, but already has a good body of work under his belt. Modern coach.

He's won trophies with both Braga and Sporting who aren't as big as Benfica and Porto who are the two biggest Portuguese clubs.

He's had to deal with losings several key players during his time at Sporting. Nuno Mendes, Joao Palhinha, Matheus Nunes, Pedro Porro, Manuel Ugarte, etc.

Sporting are in with a chance at winning the league again this season. They play some good stuff. 66 goals scored from 23 league games.

He's mainatined a win % of over 70% at every club/role so far in his career. He has the makings of an elite coach.
Amorim has one of the more impressive CVs of the available managers out there, and I like the idea of appointing a younger manager on the ascent. I'd be interested in how his teams actually play football. How much emphasis does he place on his teams actually controlling games, for example?

I'm beyond sick of watching us cede possession to inferior teams and letting them take the game to us. I think it's pretty important for us to move towards a more possession based style under the new manager or at the very least using the ball a lot more intelligently. We don't look capable of either under the current manager.

The wilful ignorance of some on this subject is almost impressive. Ten Hag's fingerprints have been all over the majority of our signings over the last two seasons. Literally half the players we've signed since Ten Hag's appointment have played in Eredivisie at some point during their careers. That's no coincidence.
 
Sounds like the writing is now on the wall, which is a shame because at certain points last season I really started to believe in EtH and what he could achieve here.

I don't know who will be the next manager, but for once with the appointments we are making / in the process of making, and the footballing structure, I have a good feeling that there is a proper structure and plan in place.

I think EtH was always facing an uphill battle and it's likely he's been on eggshells since Ineos came in. It doesn't make sense to shake up the structure completely, but not change the ultimate owner of performance on the pitch, especially since he was hired under an old regime and may not even suit what Ineos are trying to achieve.
 
Brighton is just so miniscule in contrast to the Man Utd job, I wouldn't be a huge fan of targeting De Zerbi.
 
We had a really easy run of fixtures coming up and Ole would've bounced back.
We were far worse under Rangnick.
We were thumped 4-1 at Watford in his last game who didn’t win for another 3 months It doesn’t get much easier than that but we were brutal that day. He needed to go and he wasn’t turning it around .
 


Anyone would be better than our worst manager since Sir Alex retired, but boy, would DeZerbi or Potter be underwhelming hires. Having said that, the new football structure begin with a clean slate and will live or die by the decisions they take. So, at least initially we would have to trust their judgement. However, I hope it is someone with a better pedigree than those two.

I feel if they really wanted Potter, they would have sacked ETH when we still had a chance to secure top 4 and given him a free hit for the rest of the season. As for DeZerbi, I could envisage him fitting in at an already set structure like at City, but tough to see him succeed with the mess we are in with ETH's terrible buys.
 
Personally, I would rather stick by him and put behind and above him a proper structure.
This club ain't functioning for the last 15 years and backed any manager.
Last summer he tried to do things by himself and take initiative and leadership because of a lack of.
He's not here to build a squad, but to manage this team with good personnel, let him do this.
 
The wilful ignorance of some on this subject is almost impressive. Ten Hag's fingerprints have been all over the majority of our signings over the last two seasons. Literally half the players we've signed since Ten Hag's appointment have played in Eredivisie at some point during their careers. That's no coincidence.
But even if EtH stays, it certainly won't be his job to identify our transfer targets. We relied on him picking players because we had no functioning structure in place. But that seems to change with INEOS. The mangers voice is probably still heard regarding transfers, but there is no way we would sanction a deal like Antony under Berrada/Ashwood.

So the failed transfers may be a stick to beat EtH with but that would not be a reason to sack him. I think the crucial point is whether he is suited to the style of play we want to establish.
 
Anyone would be better than our worst manager since Sir Alex retired,

Terrible take.

I'm on record saying EtH should be given a chance under the Ineos-led structure and thus far no argument has persuaded me otherwise.

We need to avoid hyperbolic reactions to form and also hyperbolic talking up of prospective coaches.

One thing: I'm glad Brendan Rodgers is out of the frame. Could you imagine the 'he won the cup with Leicester' and 'if only for Slippy G' narratives?
 
Im sorry but I disagree with the top 5 league thing. How is Nagelsmann winning the Bundesliga a bigger managerial achievement than say Amorim winning Liga NOS with Sporting when they were 3rd favourites? Or winning the League Cup with Braga?

I think Nagelsmann is a very good option for us but to discount someone like Amorim on that basis would be negligent.

I’m not discounting him but if it was a choice between the two, I’d take Naigelsman all day. Getting to a semi final of a champions league with RB Leipzig is a far greater achievement than wining the Portuguese league with sporting, we can’t get our second or third pick like we normally do with players. This one has to be 100% right or we will be in the wilderness another decade.
 
But even if EtH stays, it certainly won't be his job to identify our transfer targets. We relied on him picking players because we had no functioning structure in place. But that seems to change with INEOS. The mangers voice is probably still heard regarding transfers, but there is no way we would sanction a deal like Antony under Berrada/Ashwood.

So the failed transfers may be a stick to beat EtH with but that would not be a reason to sack him. I think the crucial point is whether he is suited to the style of play we want to establish.
His recruitment record in isolation may not be a good enough reason to sack him but his failure to implement anything resembling a cohesive style when he has had everything he wanted to do that is. He even pushed hard for a player like Mason Mount in the summer and there's no evidence to suggest he ever had any idea how to integrate him into his team. That's a huge red flag.
 
Terrible take.

I'm on record saying EtH should be given a chance under the Ineos-led structure and thus far no argument has persuaded me otherwise.

We need to avoid hyperbolic reactions to form and also hyperbolic talking up of prospective coaches.

One thing: I'm glad Brendan Rodgers is out of the frame. Could you imagine the 'he won the cup with Leicester' and 'if only for Slippy G' narratives?

ETH has form for being stubborn, he has form for being tactically naive, your wining a CL Semi Final by 2 goals and you throw that away, we saw this season in the CL he did that again and again!

He’s on course to lose 20 games in all competitions, he’s already lost 16, just let that sink in for one moment. A Man United Manager losing 40-45% of all the matches that he over sees in one season.

He’s spent £400m and the team is still in 6-7th place, no better than where Ole or Ralph left the team, stunted progress is not progress and no manager since Moyes as made United so easy to beat in the PL as ETH!

Sometimes when you’re resetting the structure above, it’s normally a wise idea that the club has a complete reset, including the coach. The players are 75% the problem but if a new coach is employed by a new hierarchy, they will finally fear the coach and realise that player power at old Trafford no longer exists.

And here’s the caveat, some United fans want to keep ETH, most do not however it really doesn’t matter what we think because Sir Jim has already made that decision. He probably wanted his own man day one but could not remove ETH if the club was playing well.

ETH has made Sir Jim’s decision easy!
 
Yet another article about De Zerbi, something is rumbling at United & I’m not sure if he’s the one!
I wonder if Berada and Ashworth who both like him a lot have put the wheels in motion about 3 months ago, which may have coincided with Brighton’s erratic form.

The true cost will be more like £25m as ETH and Staff will have to be paid off a similar fee of £12-13m as he still has one year in his contract.

One thing that no one can argue about is De Zerbie head to head against ETH, he’s won 3 and drawn 1.
 
And those losses are a reasonable thing to be concerned about. It does feel like a disproportionate amount of blame is being sent his way but in your defence you’re acknowledging those other factors.

It would be silly to seriously suggest he’s any better than those but I don’t think it’s entirely ridiculous to look at parallels with Klopp and Arteta in terms of how they built their clubs back up with their DOF/technical directors working closely.
I don’t think it’s disproportionate to look at the games in detail, such as Fulham or Crystal Palace, where you will see that we lost on those days to teams facing their own absences.

There are as many parallels to be drawn with the few successful managers as there are unsuccessful ones. If we don’t hold the manager of the team accountable for his tactical choices then we might as well just replace him anyway if there’s no relevance to him.
I think they’ll give him a chance personally but whatever they do I’ll be behind it.
Someone else responded to that post yesterday citing how the way SjR handles the likes of Ashworth & Brailsford if we are underachieving will also be something to look out for & that’s why I simply can not see EtH staying.

If you’re one of the new senior members of management, with a number of vocal doubters, would you entrust the squad you’re composing to this coach? or one of your own choosing?

EtH needed to put his position beyond doubt imo.
Absolutely we did it. And who in spite of that managed to get us there?
Exactly.

So results & performance are trending backwards. That is generally when most teams would look at changing a manager.

This sounds all too familiar to the excuses made under OgS. If it is a positive, people use it to defend the manager but dismiss any negative. He deserves credit for finishing 3rd last year. Serious questions have to be asked how we now site double digits away from Aston Villa.

What use is finishing 3rd a year ago when you fail to meet lower expectations a year later? None. He’s shown nothing beyond the new manager bounce.
I think the lack of football structure has made it impossible to compete for a title and has contributed significantly to having a squad that’s not suited to one style with too many odd profiles. The trouble is this “bolstered” squad hasn’t been able to be used in its best form and many of those key signings have been out injured.

Essentially this season has been monumentally shit and bad luck has played a significant role.
I don’t think were that far apart to be honest with you.

The season has indeed been monumentally shit, EtH whilst not wholly to blame, carries some of that blame. Overall I think the manager will change a few times over the coming years so my concern is what Ineos do in & around him rather than the man himself.
 
His recruitment record in isolation may not be a good enough reason to sack him but his failure to implement anything resembling a cohesive style when he has had everything he wanted to do that is. He even pushed hard for a player like Mason Mount in the summer and there's no evidence to suggest he ever had any idea how to integrate him into his team. That's a huge red flag.
The lack of a cohesive playing style certainly is a huge problem and a valid reason to sack EtH. Even though he had a very difficult job with all the injuries and a squad that wasn't built with a plan, as we just collected random available players for years now.

I think he had a plan to integrate Mount in the team. Mostly in a midfield with Bruno and Casemiro. It's highly questionable that this a good plan, but we ultimately didn't see enough of it to properly judge it.
 
ETH has made Sir Jim’s decision easy!

Ratcliffe would need to find a replacement who could improve United. All the candidates are underwhelming or about EtH's level. As I say, give EtH a shot with Ineos' structure in place. Then judge.

We've seen EtH improve players and make the type of hard calls the likes of Moyes, LvG or Ole would never make. We've seen him err and make bad mistakes. Happens to all managers.

As for de Zerbi and EtH's head to head record, please remember EtH won their most important duel in last season's FA Cup.

The lack of a cohesive playing style certainly is a huge problem and a valid reason to sack EtH. Even though he had a very difficult job with all the injuries and a squad that wasn't built with a plan, as we just collected random available players for years now.

The cohesion is mitigated by injuries and personnel crises.
 
Anyone would be better than our worst manager since Sir Alex retired, but boy, would DeZerbi or Potter be underwhelming hires. Having said that, the new football structure begin with a clean slate and will live or die by the decisions they take. So, at least initially we would have to trust their judgement. However, I hope it is someone with a better pedigree than those two.

I feel if they really wanted Potter, they would have sacked ETH when we still had a chance to secure top 4 and given him a free hit for the rest of the season. As for DeZerbi, I could envisage him fitting in at an already set structure like at City, but tough to see him succeed with the mess we are in with ETH's terrible buys.
That would be the case for most coaches who come in and have an actual football style that isn't counter attack. It's about taking steps in the right direction.
 
The cohesion is mitigated by injuries and personnel crises.
Of course it is. He has a really difficult job. But then again, the results are bad and we regressed regarding our style of play this season. He integrated two great talents into our squad, but other than that there is not much left that speaks for EtH.

Maybe if our plan is to play the kind of football EtH played at Ajax we can stick to him to see what he can do with a hopefully better assembled squad. But I'm really not sure if there aren't better managers available for that purpose.
 
I’m not discounting him but if it was a choice between the two, I’d take Naigelsman all day. Getting to a semi final of a champions league with RB Leipzig is a far greater achievement than wining the Portuguese league with sporting, we can’t get our second or third pick like we normally do with players. This one has to be 100% right or we will be in the wilderness another decade.
What about a semi with Ajax?
I don’t think it’s disproportionate to look at the games in detail, such as Fulham or Crystal Palace, where you will see that we lost on those days to teams facing their own absences.

There are as many parallels to be drawn with the few successful managers as there are unsuccessful ones. If we don’t hold the manager of the team accountable for his tactical choices then we might as well just replace him anyway if there’s no relevance to him.

Someone else responded to that post yesterday citing how the way SjR handles the likes of Ashworth & Brailsford if we are underachieving will also be something to look out for & that’s why I simply can not see EtH staying.

If you’re one of the new senior members of management, with a number of vocal doubters, would you entrust the squad you’re composing to this coach? or one of your own choosing?

EtH needed to put his position beyond doubt imo.

Exactly.

So results & performance are trending backwards. That is generally when most teams would look at changing a manager.

This sounds all too familiar to the excuses made under OgS. If it is a positive, people use it to defend the manager but dismiss any negative. He deserves credit for finishing 3rd last year. Serious questions have to be asked how we now site double digits away from Aston Villa.

What use is finishing 3rd a year ago when you fail to meet lower expectations a year later? None. He’s shown nothing beyond the new manager bounce.

I don’t think were that far apart to be honest with you.

The season has indeed been monumentally shit, EtH whilst not wholly to blame, carries some of that blame. Overall I think the manager will change a few times over the coming years so my concern is what Ineos do in & around him rather than the man himself.
I think we’re near enough on most things but we just fall one more lenient (me) and you slightly less lenient on what we allow as reasonable underperformance given factors beyond control.

Your last paragraph in particular I think is very fair indeed. We’ll all have a slightly different interpretation on his blame and its impact on this season but there is blame there and for many that will be enough to say “clean slate new manager” understandable.
 
I am underwhelmed by a lot of the names but honestly it's less about the specific manager and more about fixing the club. That starts with what ineos are doing with the structure. Once that's in place we need them to work with the manager to overhaul the squad like arsenal, move away from players like Maguire, Lindelof etc, whoever it is and get more young and hungry players, build around Martinez, Mainoo, Hojlund and Garnacho. I would like them to right off the bat manage expectations and get the fan base ready for a couple of transition seasons.
 
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