Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) was joined by comedian Ali Woods to look back at the best and worst moments of a rollercoaster season with the annual United Hour Awards.
Has Ten Hag been sacked yet? We're not sure and we hope not, but it's looking more likely as the days pass.
Who should replace him and why is it taking so long to make a decision?
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Enjoy Russia, you dumb Tumpist. The US are not obligated to take him back in any prisoner swap, even if the guy is a member of the military who let his mates down and went AWOL.
Jeffries on Russia
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Don't bother with the Elon Musk of the caf.
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DOD announced another package for Ukraine worth $400m
https://www.defense.gov/News/Releas...s-additional-security-assistance-for-ukraine/
Good on Biden. Hope it arrives on time. I think Ukraine will suffer a russian offensive pretty soon
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I actually wasn't planning to post this, because Boris Johnson's Brexit and Covid guru is not the most unimpeachable source of wisdom, but since the #SlavaUkraini brigade have just turned on 'AfonsoAlves' of all people in the Eurovision thread for writing what ought to be basic common knowledge at this point, I've decided to go ahead.
https://www.globalvillagespace.com/ukraine-a-corrupt-sthole-ex-boris-johnson-adviser/
Most of the lines are quotable but I'll go with:
“The lesson we’ve taught Putin is that we’re a bunch of total f**king jokers,” he said. “I mean, Putin already knew that before the war. But this has emphasized it and broadcast it to the entire world, what a bunch of clowns we are"
There's a lot I'd expand on there, and I'd change the word "Putin" to "entire non-Western world", but the sentiment is good enough. The single greatest use of political technology I've ever witnessed was how the West dressed Zelenskiy up like an Action Man figure and actually managed to convince an entire continent of credulous simpletons that he was the "new Winston Churchill" single-handedly fighting to save global democracy and freedom.
As I said, I wasn't planning to post my weekly dose of "Russian propaganda" but the reaction to AA's posts in the Eurovision thread were too apt an opportunity to let by.
https://www.globalvillagespace.com/ukraine-a-corrupt-sthole-ex-boris-johnson-adviser/
Most of the lines are quotable but I'll go with:
“The lesson we’ve taught Putin is that we’re a bunch of total f**king jokers,” he said. “I mean, Putin already knew that before the war. But this has emphasized it and broadcast it to the entire world, what a bunch of clowns we are"
There's a lot I'd expand on there, and I'd change the word "Putin" to "entire non-Western world", but the sentiment is good enough. The single greatest use of political technology I've ever witnessed was how the West dressed Zelenskiy up like an Action Man figure and actually managed to convince an entire continent of credulous simpletons that he was the "new Winston Churchill" single-handedly fighting to save global democracy and freedom.
As I said, I wasn't planning to post my weekly dose of "Russian propaganda" but the reaction to AA's posts in the Eurovision thread were too apt an opportunity to let by.
Please don't use contextual misunderstanding and my poorly worded contexts to launch another triade please. We know where you stand, and that's fine. Just please don't piggyback off me, thanks.
No one is pretending that Ukraine is a perfect country. We're all quite well aware of the corruption and Russia-esque oligarchic structures. And there has been reporting on the tough mobilization methods used by Ukraine's government so we're aware of that too.
But you're gonna have to offer evidence, besides anectodal ones, that today's Ukraine is:
- Killing or jailing political opponents in the ways that happened to Kara-Murza, Navalny, Nemtsov etc.
- Arresting journalists, artists, human rights activists in masses.
- Sending violent criminals to war and then pardoning them back into society.
- Etc etc etc.
I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong. I don't live in Ukraine and I'm absolutely willing to believe that Western media might not be reporting on all bad things done by the Ukrainian government. But you understand that we can't exactly believe you at your word either on all your claims about how Ukraine is now equivalent to Russia in its domestic behavior.
I'm aware of critical articles towards Zelensky's government on press freedom and if anything shady is happening, it should be called out.
But again, we know Ukraine isn't perfect. But it's you who claims that it's now equivalent to Russia in many regards.
There's the post-invasion banning of political parties. The argument is of them being overtly pro-Russian (some linked to Medvedchuk if I recall correctly).
How do you view this @AfonsoAlves ?
How do you view this @AfonsoAlves ?
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I never said, "all ways," but "many regards."
Regarding political opponents, it was a long and slowly escalated path. Since 2015 "Communist symbology" started to get banned and then by a year into the war, all "communist" parties were outlawed and many of its leaders arrested and interrogated. No news on what happened to them after.
https://www.kyivpost.com/post/7840
Ukraine doesn't arrest Journalists, artists and such, as far as I am aware of. But I'm also aware that barely anyone has reported anything anti-government or anti-Ukraine so I'm not sure where the balance of that is.
Just a week ago, the country began drafting policy to recruit prisoners in exchange for pardon or lessened sentences. There have been exemptions made for the worst, like murderers and rapists, but still, another sticky road that we're going towards.
https://www.politico.eu/article/ukr...ilization-of-convicts-for-war-ukraine-russia/
Since the war, we've not had any elections (which is fine), but what really pisses me and many others off is that there is no joint war cabinet. It's been Zelensky and the party running the entire show. Other viewpoints are not considered at all.
There are many reports you can find of people being fired at (as happened to a family member of mine) trying to escape Ukraine.
Ukraine has abandoned all consulate services for active military age males abroad - doesn't matter when you left Ukraine or for what purpose, you will have no consulate access for things like renewing your visa or having problems regarding your stay in a foreign country if you're a military age male.
Some of the parties were rightfully banned, with many of the leaders of them being pretty blatantly in bed with the Russians or having very weird ties to FSB, I understand in war-time it is not worth the risk.
Others were very weird, and others were simply opportunity grabs to target people they didn't like.
For example, the socialist party was banned and their leader, Vik Zaika was jailed for "illicitly agreeing to carve up Ukraine with Russian generals post war." Only, this is the equivalent of a claim that the russians made a deal to split the country with Nigel Farage or something, Zaika was pretty politically irrelevant by that point.
Another example was members of the "Ukrainian Afghan Veterans Party" got arrested and interrogated for having "close ties to the socialist party."
OPZH got disbanded and disavowed despite being one of the most vocal critics of the Russian invasion, and they were center-left in retrospect to all the other left wing Ukr parties. Mainly because they were the main opponents in the early 2010's and wanted to have closer ties to Russia economically rather than the EU. Or that was the justification.
Everything else was just thrown in under what is practically the Ukrainian version of McCarthyism. Everyone who is communist is interrogated and any political association is disenfranchised. FFS last year we passed a law that banned residential buildings that looked like Soviet Era "Communist" Architecture residential flats.
Oh and the decision to remove Zaluzhnyi - entirely political because he was so popular he started to become a threat to Zelensky.
He was the most popular of the commanders in the whole AFU and he was forced to retire from the military and is now the ambassador to Britain. Absolute shitshow that was.
Also replaced by an absolute melt but is favoured by Zelensky.
Complete Shoigu/Putin vibes here.
He was the most popular of the commanders in the whole AFU and he was forced to retire from the military and is now the ambassador to Britain. Absolute shitshow that was.
Also replaced by an absolute melt but is favoured by Zelensky.
Complete Shoigu/Putin vibes here.
Dominic Cummings ffs.
Original interview they took the quotes from by the way for those who prefer a proper source.
https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/cummings-boris-saved-thousands-covid-wont-talk-3040481
Let's be clear about why I quoted you. It was you arguing how Ukraine is now no better than Russia and also deserves to be banned from international events if Russia must be banned. The "I meant several ways, not all ways" argument is unconvincing to me in that particular context. You are willing to go very far in equating Ukraine with Russia.
This isn't about providing a list of all bad things done by Ukraine in a post-2014 context of fighting against Russian aggression. There's plenty of bad stuff to be mentioned which I have no interest of whitewashing. But frankly, I am also not convinced to go along with your line of thinking.
But let's take it piece by piece.
Your KyivPost article is in the context of post-2014 tensions with these communist parties who are accused of supporting the annexation of Crimea and Russian activity in the eastern provinces. I'm aware of the possibility of that being used as a pretext for getting rid of political opponents. Do you think that's what happened there?
You aren't aware of people getting arrested in masses for going against the government. Okay. For the record, I regularly watch the Hromadske channel on Youtube. There is plenty of criticism aimed at the government in interviews with frontline troops. Is it your expectation that the Zelensky government will crack down on Hromadske?
As for the prisoners, I specifically referred to violent criminals which seem to be exempted in the Ukrainian proposal. Still, I agree that even recruiting non-violent criminals is a controversial measure to take and deserves to be criticized.
I also agree that abandoning consulate services is bad.
That someone is politically irrelevant in itself is an irrelevant argument in the context of committing treason. Regular civilians also get arrested for that. Had it been credibly proven that this Vik Zaika fella was in treasonous territory in your opinion?
As for the rest of the post, thanks for clarifying.
But you do realize that Zaluzhny wasn't arrested or died by falling out of a window? Do you think firing Zaluzhny as general and then appointing him ambassador to Britain is a valid argument to give under an overarching argument that Ukraine is no better than Russia, hence deserved to be banned too from international events?
I agree it was a shitshow by the way. Though I will want to make a point that civilian governments replacing generals is hardly a criminal thing to do. It must be done with good reasons though.
@AfonsoAlves do you think Ukraine still deserves Western support? Or maybe support based on certain conditions?
My main discontent with how things are in Ukraine stem from the fact that the trajectory was so hopeful for so long. From mid 2000's to 2022 things were getting exponentially better, from a political structure, anti-corruption, governance (obviously the Luhansk and Donetsk situation aside) everything was just getting visibly better. Then the war happened and it just felt like everything went back to the way it was.
Yes, I think that its being used a pretext by the center-right/right wing politicians to get rid of left wing political parties in Ukraine, as explained in the other post you responded to below. Some of them are legitimate cannings, others far more dubious. Then there's the whole McCarthyism element to it.
regarding Hromadske specifically, no. Because they're actually heavily funded by the West and has huge exposure in the west. But there are cases of Telegram warbloggers being told to shut the feck up. There's a reason why Ukrainian Opsec is so good compared to Russia and part of the reason is that Telegram 'dooming' is simply not tolerated. Mainstream media in native Ukrainian barely discusses some of the current power/political problems. The way the Zaluzhnyi situation was handled by the mainstream media was very "tread lightly".
There's a whole lot of stuff that I haven't gone into to be honest - things like AFU firing at villages occupied by Russian forces that still have Ukrainian civilians living there (mostly old women), executing prisoners of war, trying to accuse everyone of being Pro-Russia for dissenting voices.
It's contextually bizarre if it is true. Again, it's like if Russia planned to invade Ukraine and decided to choose Nigel Farage of all people to collaborate with. Viktor Zaika was 100% Pro Russia when it came to economic and cultural alignment, but he never spoke about anything related to the war. He was arrested and detained in 2022 "pending investigation," and nothing was ever reported ever again. Nobody knows the outcome of this investigation, nobody knows where he is now and it's complete hush and silence. It really doesn't sit well with me.
I will always believe that Ukraine should be aided to fight against Russia. I believe that, it is the forefront in the minds of every Ukrainian whether they live in Ukraine like most of my family, or like me, who live abroad.
I don't think that tying Western aid to Political reform is a step that helps. Right now, our priority is to repel the Russians, however long that may take. My despair over how we as a state has responded to times of extreme hardship does not exceed my absolute belief that sovereignity and freedom against invasion by Russia is still hugely important.
My biggest fear is that we are trapped between two. We end up being domineered by the Russians left as a rump state for them to pick the carcass of -> Or we somehow repel the Russians and the country becomes the same political hell-scape we ourselves hate on the other side of the border.
I think your intepretation of what I mean by "Ukraine is no better than Russia" does not come from the point of view of scale or entirely on execution, but in cultural and political intent. Ultimately, we are two nations now that seemingly don't give a shit about the human cost of what we set out to achieve, that we as a system of governance still allow petty politics to overshadow national interest. We are both nations that right now are willing to sacrifice the bare fundamentals for our aims, with the only difference being that our aims are just and theirs are not. But that means little to me because I always believe that no matter how just the end target is, not all means are justified.
We say how brutal it was of Wagner to recruit prisoners, yet we do the same. Just not at the same scale of execution. We say how horrible the Russian political system is, yet Ukraine has banned practically all left leaning parties and anyone who even shows slight cultural loyalties towards Russia. We want to be part of the West, the EU and all its relevant institutions and yet we have a situation where somehow a President is able to remove a political threat, who happens to be the Commander of the Armed forces fighting an existential war for freedom.
We are not yet Russia in terms of scale, but we're both on that same slippery road, sliding down, only Russia is much closer to the bottom and we're still sliding. A complete reversal of all the progress we have made.
I'm angry because I always thought we were better, but as more and more revelations come by, we're only more humane at the execution, not in the intention. We're in the same boat as Russia, on that slope going down until both of us reach the hell that is at the end. Reading that makes me realize how dramatic I sound.
@AfonsoAlves
Please, keep posting. I'm personally desperate to navigate through the fog of war and find your input invaluable.
Please, keep posting. I'm personally desperate to navigate through the fog of war and find your input invaluable.
Thanks @VorZakone for generating this debate and thanks @AfonsoAlves for your perspective. Its being a great reading
Typical ultra conservative, anti globalisation, anti Europe, nationalist view point.
Could be translated 1:1 to the views of the far right AfD in Germany, just add the anti Americanism and you got their policies.
Haven't the US not done pretty much the same with the Japanese population living in the US after Pearl Harbor.
As Ukraine and Russia were one country for centuries, it's absolutely normal you share similar culture and act in many ways alike.
The decisive difference is that Russia is the aggressor and the Ukrainians are defending their country.
In a war there are always many atrocities. No side is blameless or innocent. You won't win a war against a dictatorship playing 100% by the rules.
You don't want Western aid to be conditional. But you also say Ukraine must be banned from international events if Russia must also be banned. I mean, this strikes me a little bit as a rhetorical leap: a country worth supporting but also worthy of banning. Especially with the context of Ukraine's trajectory being a positive one up to 2022 until Russia invaded and totally messed the situation up.I will always believe that Ukraine should be aided to fight against Russia. I believe that, it is the forefront in the minds of every Ukrainian whether they live in Ukraine like most of my family, or like me, who live abroad.
I don't think that tying Western aid to Political reform is a step that helps. Right now, our priority is to repel the Russians, however long that may take. My despair over how we as a state has responded to times of extreme hardship does not exceed my absolute belief that sovereignity and freedom against invasion by Russia is still hugely important.
My biggest fear is that we are trapped between two. We end up being domineered by the Russians left as a rump state for them to pick the carcass of -> Or we somehow repel the Russians and the country becomes the same political hell-scape we ourselves hate on the other side of the border.
I think your intepretation of what I mean by "Ukraine is no better than Russia" does not come from the point of view of scale or entirely on execution, but in cultural and political intent. Ultimately, we are two nations now that seemingly don't give a shit about the human cost of what we set out to achieve, that we as a system of governance still allow petty politics to overshadow national interest. We are both nations that right now are willing to sacrifice the bare fundamentals for our aims, with the only difference being that our aims are just and theirs are not. But that means little to me because I always believe that no matter how just the end target is, not all means are justified.
We say how brutal it was of Wagner to recruit prisoners, yet we do the same. Just not at the same scale of execution. We say how horrible the Russian political system is, yet Ukraine has banned practically all left leaning parties and anyone who even shows slight cultural loyalties towards Russia. We want to be part of the West, the EU and all its relevant institutions and yet we have a situation where somehow a President is able to remove a political threat, who happens to be the Commander of the Armed forces fighting an existential war for freedom.
We are not yet Russia in terms of scale, but we're both on that same slippery road, sliding down, only Russia is much closer to the bottom and we're still sliding. A complete reversal of all the progress we have made.
I'm angry because I always thought we were better, but as more and more revelations come by, we're only more humane at the execution, not in the intention. We're in the same boat as Russia, on that slope going down until both of us reach the hell that is at the end. Reading that makes me realize how dramatic I sound.
Given your personal experiences, I understand you feel strongly about this. I guess from a distance it'll be hard for me (and others) to understand your view that if Russia is ban worthy, then Ukraine is also. I think we see different on the interpretation here. You look at the intent and what might happen down the road but I think you may be slightly harsh here and there as I still see considerable distance between Ukraine and the state terror that we witness in Russia. Recently 2 SBU colonels were arrested on suspicion of a murder plot on Zelensky so it seems the threat from within Ukrainian institutions is also still there.
But I'll do say this: whatever victory goals Ukraine had, they do seem further and further away. Sensitive issues such as manpower and mobilization don't seem to be properly addressed.
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Quite a few tweeters picking up on this
Reuters article: https://www.reuters.com/world/europ...e-minister-shoigu-parliament-says-2024-05-12/
Shoigu's deputy minister was arrested some while ago by the way. Maybe some Kremlin internal rivalries going on.
Makes sense given that he's already ditched nearly every prominent military leader so far over the past 27 months.
Maybe Vlad thinks they were plotting against him. Certainly an odd turn of events for such a vibrant democracy.
Seen a tweet few days ago saying Surovikin could be back into picture. Think that would've spelled bad news, as he seemed to be doing right things when he was in charge.
That would be a shock given his ties to Prigozhin's coup attempt and reports that he either knew about or was in on the plot. He's also scarcely been seen since then other than in a few crude tweets of him looking unshaven and disheveled in civilian clothes
He's been in Africa for a year and the rumours that he's back in Russia are false.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c72p0xx410xo
How tf can they allow that to happen. They had nearly 2 years to fortify.
Because the corruption and state of the AFU is about the same as the Russians.
Just look at the list of military commanders who have been fired for corruption in the past two years should tell you everything you need to know.
Russians are aiming for Harkiv now or its a tactic of spreading the atrack so UFA defense is streched?