[Fortitude]

He’s quite poor in that regard but he’s still faster, sharper and more agile than this version of Casemiro, I think you’re either overestimating his deficiencies or vastly overrating Case (at the moment). Trent is even less (quite significantly) positionally astute than Martinez and I very much doubt that he’s more agile… faster — sure.

That said, I very much doubt that Licha will be successful in that role but I really didn’t like your comparisons.

I think your wayyy off, and Casemiro is forced to play as he does because of the chaos that ensues in the midfield. It’s race to the bottom here! Who is the worse athlete from the two!? All of the bold, Casemiro has him in easily, imo. Put Martinez in midfield for 55min and see who is flailing more. At the start of a game when both are fresh I’ll still go with Casemiro. Faults are so much more exacerbated in midfield and being just a few steps off the pace makes you look like you’re running in treacle; there’s just no way Martinez has the superior tank to cope with repeat runs and sprints better than Casemiro, for me.

Martinez having more agility than Trent you’ll have to explain.

 

[bond19821982]

Question should be - how did he end up marking Isak and Joelington for those 2 goals . I don't think it was a case of Newcastle strategy to mark Licha. We were all over the place

 

[Crackers]

I think your wayyy off, and Casemiro is forced to play as he does because of the chaos that ensues in the midfield. It’s race to the bottom here! Who is the worse athlete from the two!? All of the bold, Casemiro has him in easily, imo. Put Martinez in midfield for 55min and see who is flailing more. At the start of a game when both are fresh I’ll still go with Casemiro. Faults are so much more exacerbated in midfield and being just a few steps off the pace makes you look like you’re running in treacle; there’s just no way Martinez has the superior tank to cope with repeat runs and sprints better than Casemiro, for me.

Martinez having more agility than Trent you’ll have to explain.

The only Martinez positive from an athleticsm perspective is that he's a bit younger that he might recover better, but otherwise he'd be annihilated in midfield.
Even if Casemiro is slower, he'd know how to time his runs better to be more affective.

Moving CBs to CM only works if they're strong and athletic.

 

[harms]

I think your wayyy off, and Casemiro is forced to play as he does because of the chaos that ensues in the midfield. It’s race to the bottom here! Who is the worse athlete from the two!? All of the bold, Casemiro has him in easily, imo. Put Martinez in midfield for 55min and see who is flailing more. At the start of a game when both are fresh I’ll still go with Casemiro. Faults are so much more exacerbated in midfield and being just a few steps off the pace makes you look like you’re running in treacle; there’s just no way Martinez has the superior tank to cope with repeat runs and sprints better than Casemiro, for me.

Martinez having more agility than Trent you’ll have to explain.

I don’t know. It’s hard to explain these things, maybe Amorim will be kind enough to provide us with some actual evidence… but Casemiro doesn’t have anything left in that supposed tank for me, regardless of whenever he’s rested or not.

As for agility? I think it’s pretty self-explanatory. Neither are agile players but I’d trust Martinez more due to his height advantage (in this case the lack of it is an advantage).

 

[Fortitude]

I don’t know. It’s hard to explain these things, maybe Amorim will be kind enough to provide us with some actual evidence… but Casemiro doesn’t have anything left in that supposed tank for me, regardless of whenever he’s rested or not.

As for agility? I think it’s pretty self-explanatory. Neither are agile players but I’d trust Martinez more due to his height advantage (in this case the lack of it is an advantage).

Casemiro doesn’t have anything left relatively, which is important in this assessment, imo. He looks washed, in the company of midfielders going at it at 100mph and also compared to his former self, but if you put an unathletic defender in there, ask him to make the same number of runs and sprints and test his HIIT, I would expect to see a gap open up between them very quickly, personally.

At CB, Martinez gets far more breathers and chances to recover before having to go again. Take that from him and his stamina is directly challenged; I would expect to see him blowing chunks by the 60min mark, worse than Casemiro.

I think Martinez has lost a few steps in agility since the metatarsal break. He doesn’t swarm like he used to. I suspect he either can’t or he’s reluctant to. Trent is more dopey/inept than un-agile, imo.

 

[Fortitude]

The only Martinez positive from an athleticsm perspective is that he's a bit younger that he might recover better, but otherwise he'd be annihilated in midfield.
Even if Casemiro is slower, he'd know how to time his runs better to be more affective.

Moving CBs to CM only works if they're strong and athletic.

And also regulate his breathing better, imo, which is extremely important in midfield.

 

[Crackers]

And also regulate his breathing better, imo, which is extremely important in midfield.

I've mostly played 5/7 asides but have usually play CM in an 11 and holy god getting your breathing right makes such a diffence. Very hard to make the right pass after running back to close off a passing lane

 

[Fortitude]

I've mostly played 5/7 asides but have usually play CM in an 11 and holy god getting your breathing right makes such a diffence. Very hard to make the right pass after running back to close off a passing lane

And then having to hustle back to your nominal position after that! Never admiring your work or getting the chance to sneakily catch your breath!

I’m in awe of wingbacks and those Cafu like fullbacks, but after them, central midfielders are something else when it comes to perpetual motion!

 

[Crackers]

And then having to hustle back to your nominal position after that! Never admiring your work or getting the chance to sneakily catch your breath!

I’m in awe of wingbacks and those Cafu like fullbacks, but after them, central midfielders are something else when it comes to perpetual motion!

I spent my childhood cycling and running so it was only logical that I sat in midfield

 

[harms]

Casemiro doesn’t have anything left relatively, which is important in this assessment, imo. He looks washed, in the company of midfielders going at it at 100mph and also compared to his former self, but if you put an unathletic defender in there, ask him to make the same number of runs and sprints and test his HIIT, I would expect to see a gap open up between them very quickly, personally.

We probably differ in our assessment of Casemiro more than that of Martinez. I simply don’t think of him as an active footballer athletic-wise anymore, unless we’re playing in a League Cup fixture where the level is different. And I do consider Martinez to be one even though he’s way below league’s average in most athletic qualities.

 

[Fortitude]

I spent my childhood cycling and running so it was only logical that I sat in midfield

Me too, but picked up the running bug about 15 years ago and a whole new world opened up in terms of breathing control and regulation. Have always been a striker, so short bursts of high intensity into leisurely strolls has been more my thing.

 

[Fortitude]

We probably differ in our assessment of Casemiro more than that of Martinez. I simply don’t think of him as an active footballer athletic-wise anymore, unless we’re playing in a League Cup fixture where the level is different. And I do consider Martinez to be one even though he’s way below league’s average in most athletic qualities.

Nor do I, but context is important in this assessment, imo. Casemiro gets judged through the lens of the madness that is central midfielders in the PL every game and he’s clearly flagging relative to that, but he can still pull a random rabbit out the hat and output well… for about 45min. I highly doubt Martinez can give a half of football all-out in midfield in the PL. He’s blowing heavily after recovery runs in isolated sprints 1on1, and that’s with CB recovery windows. Have him run hard and concertedly for even 10min and I would expect his output to plummet.

Would actually like him to be tried there once, just to see what it looks like.

 

[Danny]

Question should be - how did he end up marking Isak and Joelington for those 2 goals . I don't think it was a case of Newcastle strategy to mark Licha. We were all over the place

They must have targeted that area though to have virtually identical goals, can't have been a coincidence.

 

[Ollie Derbyshire]

Every single thing about being a midfielder he [Trent] was absolutely appalling at. From positioning, to tracking runners, to timing his own forays, to blocking passing lanes and even energy expenditure, he was dire at. Even his vaunted passing was exposed as mostly useless, as it’s very different “trying a Pirlo” once in a while to knowing what passes to make in the most chaotic and aggressively fought area of the pitch. Shaped turns, opening the body up to receive passes and so much more; it really is a totally different ball game to stepping in temporarily in a pseudo role in acres of space. I would be amazed if Martinez has the chops or the wits to handle it before his athletic flaws were even exposed.

When he first got here, I was one of those who wanted him in midfield, but watching him play, it’s clear he’s no midfielder, certainly not in the modern sense. Sitting right at the base and essentially playing like an advanced CB, perhaps, but all the rest above, you’d see how badly he’d be exposed verses any midfielders of PL quality very, very quickly. He gets rings run around him at CB; in midfield, there are so many more split decisions to make in a matter of seconds that he just isn’t equipped to handle.

I’d actually love to see him tried there and for this post to look like nonsense as he proves otherwise, but nothing I see from him makes me think midfielder, certainly not in the PL, anyway!

I’m not sure where he’ll fit in at all going forwards as he doesn’t have the pace to be a wide CB, we need three rapid ones in there I think, it’d make a world of difference to our back line. Three Yoro’s would be great! Maybe as the central CB with his passing and 2 rapid CBs either side to cover his lack of pace, but we may as well just get 3 fast ones in to be honest.

Put an all action CM next to Ugarte, Amad on one wing and a new one on the other, with Bruno and a new 10 in front and we’d start to look like a good team. So only 5 new players before we decide on a new striker!

 

[Red_toad]

Yoro or Maz, the latter is never going to cut it as a WB, but one of these 2 + De Ligt and Maguire should be OK for a while

Neither are left sided centre half’s, which will bring different issues.

 

[Fortitude]

I’m not sure where he’ll fit in at all going forwards as he doesn’t have the pace to be a wide CB, we need three rapid ones in there I think, it’d make a world of difference to our back line. Three Yoro’s would be great! Maybe as the central CB with his passing and 2 rapid CBs either side to cover his lack of pace, but we may as well just get 3 fast ones in to be honest.

Put an all action CM next to Ugarte, Amad on one wing and a new one on the other, with Bruno and a new 10 in front and we’d start to look like a good team. So only 5 new players before we decide on a new striker!

 

[golden_blunder]

When Ten Hag refused to play him CM because he didn’t have the necessary skillset and running power that says it all

 

[Isotope]

Question should be - how did he end up marking Isak and Joelington for those 2 goals . I don't think it was a case of Newcastle strategy to mark Licha. We were all over the place

the other two CBs are just too stupid, and lack defending awareness. Rio and Vidic wouldn't allow the likes of Isak and Joelington to be marked by Evra. Under Fergie, we never had set pieces or goal conceding crisis because our fullbacks were short.

 

[Ollie Derbyshire]

When Ten Hag refused to play him CM because he didn’t have the necessary skillset and running power that says it all

He probably wouldn’t make a good CM but going off something ETH did or didn’t do isn’t a good barometer.

 

[Red in STL]

Neither are left sided centre half’s, which will bring different issues.

True but those are the current options

 

[golden_blunder]

He probably wouldn’t make a good CM but going off something ETH did or didn’t do isn’t a good barometer.

Well when his former Ajax manager, who has played his number 2 at 10, says it’s not a good idea I’d tend to agree that you’re all barking up the wrong tree.
Further I don’t think Martinez belongs in the first team at all, barring injuries. He’s shit since his injury

 

[bond19821982]

They must have targeted that area though to have virtually identical goals, can't have been a coincidence.

Maguire is 2 inches in front of him. All it takes is basic awareness to see who is behind you. Ffs - Isak wasn't even challenging like Joelington.

 

[Marwood]

Maguire is 2 inches in front of him. All it takes is basic awareness to see who is behind you. Ffs - Isak wasn't even challenging like Joelington.

They've got runners coming into the box that Maguire had to pick up. That was all on Martinez.

 

[VP89]

They've got runners coming into the box that Maguire had to pick up. That was all on Martinez.

Runners are for the midfielders. Isak went between Licha and Maguire and got the header in. Its a good way to unsettle a back 3 because there's a gap in ownership between the two.

The fault is on both players but I edge a bit more on Maguire because he turned his shoulder and saw Isak was there. There were no other players he needed to mark. He tried to jump for it if Im not mistaken but the deflection took it over his head

 

[Lu Tze]

the other two CBs are just too stupid, and lack defending awareness. Rio and Vidic wouldn't allow the likes of Isak and Joelington to be marked by Evra. Under Fergie, we never had set pieces or goal conceding crisis because our fullbacks were short.

Are you kidding?

CBs cannot be wildly pulling out of their positions to 'compensate' for the abject weaknesses of another CB. That would destroy any semblance of defensive organisation.

 

[Fortitude]

Runners are for the midfielders. Isak went between Licha and Maguire and got the header in. Its a good way to unsettle a back 3 because there's a gap in ownership between the two.

The fault is on both players but I edge a bit more on Maguire because he turned his shoulder and saw Isak was there. There were no other players he needed to mark. He tried to jump for it if Im not mistaken but the deflection took it over his head

The last CB is supposed to both communicate to the blindsided as well as react and sweep up, if needs be. He can see everything unfold and is fully aware of both the attacker and defender movement. Really has no excuse to do nothing.

 

[VP89]

The last CB is supposed to both communicate to the blindsided as well as react and sweep up, if needs be. He can see everything unfold and is fully aware of both the attacker and defender movement. Really has no excuse to do nothing.

I agree with this, but in this instance Maguire knew the threat was there too as he turned around and saw Isak was right behind him before the cross. His strength is to deal with the aerial balls so it was a bit more disappointing.

 

[Marwood]

Runners are for the midfielders. Isak went between Licha and Maguire and got the header in. Its a good way to unsettle a back 3 because there's a gap in ownership between the two.

The fault is on both players but I edge a bit more on Maguire because he turned his shoulder and saw Isak was there. There were no other players he needed to mark. He tried to jump for it if Im not mistaken but the deflection took it over his head

Yeah but watch it, as usual our midfielders weren't tracking. Eriksen had given up. If Maguire goes Isak it mean Joelinton is running into the area unmarked. With Martinez doing nothing.

You can see Maguire saying to Casemiro "I had the runner."

In the build up he even points to Martinez to say mark Isak. Martinez doesn't. He does nothing instead.

 

[Fortitude]

I agree with this, but in this instance Maguire knew the threat was there too as he turned around and saw Isak was right behind him before the cross. His strength is to deal with the aerial balls so it was a bit more disappointing.

Does that make sense? Maguire can swivel and see and try and “take a picture” but the moment he then turns back to face the ball, a smart striker peels off him using that same split second to exploit the blind spot that has materialised. Only Martinez can see what has unfolded and it is him that needs to interject and counter the striker’s additional movement.

The whole point of the 3 is that one is always covering for another, in theory. Communication is also paramount and none of that was on display. A top class 3rd CB mops that up instantly.

 

[Leftback99]

Are you kidding?

CBs cannot be wildly pulling out of their positions to 'compensate' for the abject weaknesses of another CB. That would destroy any semblance of defensive organisation.

Exactly

 

[Ollie Derbyshire]

Well when his former Ajax manager, who has played his number 2 at 10, says it’s not a good idea I’d tend to agree that you’re all barking up the wrong tree.
Further I don’t think Martinez belongs in the first team at all, barring injuries. He’s shit since his injury

Agreed, mentioned in another post I don’t see where he fits into this formation.

 

[VP89]

Does that make sense? Maguire can swivel and see and try and “take a picture” but the moment he then turns back to face the ball, a smart striker peels off him using that same split second to exploit the blind spot that has materialised. Only Martinez can see what has unfolded and it is him that needs to interject and counter the striker’s additional movement.

The whole point of the 3 is that one is always covering for another, in theory. Communication is also paramount and none of that was on display. A top class 3rd CB mops that up instantly.

I agree in theory but in this situation what is Licha meant to say in a matter of seconds? It was a deflected cross by which time its too late, even if Licha was communicating. Maguire knew where Isak was and so did Licha.

Ive rewarched it and think licha could have at least made it difficult for Isak to head the ball. My general annoyance is more that it was a free header, and we cant deal with crosses anymore.
Maybe it means Licha is expendable and we need a bigger third CB.

 

[Fortitude]

I agree in theory but in this situation what is Licha meant to say in a matter of seconds? It was a deflected cross by which time its too late, even if Licha was communicating. Maguire knew where Isak was and so did Licha.

Ive rewarched it and think licha could have at least made it difficult for Isak to head the ball. My general annoyance is more that it was a free header, and we cant deal with crosses anymore.
Maybe it means Licha is expendable and we need a bigger third CB.

I notice that a lot of people are mentioning his height, but it’s his reading, reacting and positioning that are bigger problems by far. If he was sharp, he cuts across Isak and actually uses his height to his advantage, but there’s none of that with him - he’s static and often baffled/reactive, not proactive and on the ball.

Another thing that is actually alarming if you watch him, is his “hops” and leap are shockingly poor, so not only is he short, he’s not springing across anyone, let alone getting any hang time. Thinking about that, the contingency is being touch tight and smothering… he doesn’t do that either, so this is where the complete liability concerns come in. Great defenders do/have all of the above; good defenders have some; Licha genuinely carries concern because there’s so many ways to get the better of him.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I notice that a lot of people are mentioning his height, but it’s his reading, reacting and positioning that are bigger problems by far. If he was sharp, he cuts across Isak and actually uses his height to his advantage, but there’s none of that with him - he’s static and often baffled/reactive, not proactive and on the ball.

Another thing that is actually alarming if you watch him, is his “hops” and leap are shockingly poor, so not only is he short, he’s not springing across anyone, let alone getting any hang time. Thinking about that, the contingency is being touch tight and smothering… he doesn’t do that either, so this is where the complete liability concerns come in. Great defenders do/have all of the above; good defenders have some; Licha genuinely carries concern because there’s so many ways to get the better of him.

This is crazy. Why do people get so carried away with proving that out of form players in a struggling team are irredeemable garbage?

When he was on top of his game he was excellent at compensating for his lack of height. Using his movement, timing of his jump, body strength and balance to regularly nullify much taller players in the air. He didn’t always head the ball clear but he was very effective at stopping the guy he was marking getting to the ball. He’s definitely been struggling at getting back up to speed after his injury and now (just like all our other centre backs) is finding it hard to get used to playing in a three. A switch that is particularly badly timed because he was only just starting to look match fit when this new structure got landed on him. The decisions he has to make aren’t coming naturally (yet) and that’s making him look bad.

But let’s not pretend his first season with us never happened!

 

[Fortitude]

This is crazy. Why do people get so carried away with proving that out of form players in a struggling team are irredeemable garbage?

When he was on top of his game he was excellent at compensating for his lack of height. Using his movement, timing of his jump, body strength and balance to regularly nullify much taller players in the air. He didn’t always head the ball clear but he was very effective at stopping the guy he was marking getting to the ball. He’s definitely been struggling at getting back up to speed after his injury and now (just like all our other centre backs) is finding it hard to get used to playing in a three. A switch that is particularly badly timed because he was only just starting to look match fit when this new structure got landed on him. The decisions he has to make aren’t coming naturally (yet) and that’s making him look bad.

But let’s not pretend his first season with us never happened!

His first season has already been covered pages back. That player hasn’t been seen since he returned from injury.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

His first season has already been covered pages back. That player hasn’t been seen since he returned from injury.

He’s had a metatarsal fracture and a medial ligament strain, not an amputation.

 

[buckooo1978]

The disappointing thing about Martinez lately is that we are really missing his aggression.

This United team seems to be soft touch and lack aggression. At the very least in 2025 and, with so many defensively minded players on each team sheet, we should be hard to beat.

Want to see more leadership from this team at the weekend and a solid defensive display.

I'd signal Martinez out as a compliment to him. He needs to be a leader in this team. Hope to see him back to his best soon

 

[Fortitude]

He’s had a metatarsal fracture and a medial ligament strain, not an amputation.

And yet he’s plummeted as a player. Or are you saying he’s the same guy who was proving critics wrong pre-fracture?

 

[dogwithabone]

Get rid. He’s just not a very good central defender. Probably due to his height but he tends to jump into the attacker rather than try to attack the ball and his tackling is so impetuous, a foul waiting to happen every single time he gets tight on someone. He wouldn’t be in my top 20 current centre backs in the PL.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

And yet he’s plummeted as a player. Or are you saying he’s the same guy who was proving critics wrong pre-fracture?

If you re-read my post you’ll see my take on what’s going on with him. There’s no plausible reason for a metatarsal fracture to suddenly transform a footballer in the way he would have to reading opinions on his ability, pre and post injury. He was a very long time out and when players are out a very long time it takes them a very long time getting back up to speed.

We had the same nonsense about VVD being finished (after a much more serious injury) and now look at him.