Did we?
He asked for the summer and we said now or never,that's hardly forcing him.
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach | Thread locked during matches
- Thread starter sewey89
- Start date
-
Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) discuss United's fantastic win away against Athletic Club in the semi-final of the Europa League.
They also pick out the positives of United's 4-3 loss away at Brentford, and Nik reviews a day out at Old Trafford watching Manchester United Women qualify for the Champions League.
He asked for the summer and we said now or never,that's hardly forcing him.
Yes Unfortunately it just hasnt worked out. Especially considering that, at the time, one of the objectives they laid out for him was to get the most out of our current players as the board felt ETH wasnt playing up to their potential.
Who was he going to bring on?
Hojlund is shot of confidence and clearly not good enough for us.
Garnacho shoots 5 times a game because he refuses to pass the ball to his teammates and just hits hopeless efforts, why he hasn't scored for over 50 shots.
He also does what Dalot did yesterday 4/5 times a game but because he had a shot it is overlooked, he only shoots because he is selfish, if he actually passed to his teammates in better positions we would score more goals as proved last night.
Zirkzee has played as a false 9 before, Everton for example where he had Bruno & Rashford and Amad RWB all running off him, where are these options now.
He's got a bad set of cards, he's got bad cards and he's risking world war 3, he's risking world war 3
No, just no. He's shown nothing of the sort in the time he's been here. I'd say he's exposed himself as tactically limited. AVB did wonders in the Portuguese league and has shown none of that outside in other leagues.
For me, the adaptability thing is an anxious way of thinking based on fear. Nobody likes going through bad spells but sometimes it's a necessary evil. When you're attempting to change a culture or mindset within an organisation, you just can't flip flop and change your mind on your principles or beliefs. There's no certainty about any managers philosophy working at a club but I certainly don't want Amorim to abandon what has made his previous tenures so impressive when we've got a squad that just isn't up to it regardless of formation.
4-3-3, 4-4-2, 3-4-3, 5-3-2, It doesn't matter, we're not good enough, we're not physically up to it or dynamic enough and we're not going to do anything this season that matters anyway beyond sneaking a Europa League (where I'd actually argue we've probably been most successful due to the lower physical floor of the competition, we're still the only undefeated team in Europe this season). So there's no real reason to change his approach in Europe, or there's no reason for anyone to ask him to do that in my opinion anyway.
I think people are underestimating what Amorim is actually doing here on the whole. There's a lot of psychological evaluation taking place of the squad. It's about more than just, can this group play this formation, well maybe we should switch to 4-3-3 as they are struggling. It's just as much about the mentality of the players, he's challenging them. He's saying you're not used to playing this way, system wise and physically. Can you do it? Are you willing to be coachable? It's essentially survival of the fittest within the squad. For his tenure so far and until the end of this season, for this group of players it's 'can you show me you can be part of change at this club, do you have the mentality and energy for that?'. It's everyday he'll be watching as well. Can you train like I need? Can you behave like a representative of this club? Can you take the instructions I'm giving you and implement it on the pitch? Are you physically up to it, or are you willing to put in the effort to be physically up to it? (Some will never manage that). This could completely blow up in my face but I truly believe if we can do some good business in the summer simply by raising our physical and mental floor with incomings and departures, we will be so, so much better under him.
I agree, just look at the way he spent at sporting and how many players he blooded who were first teamers or sold to make transfer money.
I don't see many managers wanting to try similar with a tight budget. Plus I genuinely believe he is the right man, just needs to survive with this car crash of a team to the summer.
I think any coach will struggle if your team cannot pass the ball to a teammate. As though a new coach will all of a sudden turn us into prime Manchester United, we might be slightly better but that is all and then people will still moan. We have a mainly slow, technically inept squad with some having no footballing intelligence. Losing the likes of Shaw, Mount, Martinez and Amad is terrible, then it was also lacking Ugarte who adds a bit of bite. A fit Shaw would have been a great addition to this team, Mount is intelligent but has not been seen often enough. The makeup of the squad is a recipe for disaster and we have basically got away with it up to now.
Last edited:
Said it for years. We struggle badly in possession, and I am not even talking about breaking the lines or anything complex. Literally, at just passing 5-10 yards to each other first time or at pace to allow us to progress through the pitch.
Which is why our buildups are so slow and laboured. You need to be able to pass quickly and move for the next pass. That is why we became reliant on conterattacking football, and just hope Rashford was on his game.
Indeed. The lack of physicality and players comfortable in possession has led to where we are now, really.
The issue with the argument is when its taken to extremes like "the system cannot work at all without X/Y/Z player" or "too many players are completely useless" while also insisting that it must be implemented regardless. Those two positions simply don't make sense.
Let's suppose you have a system that requires defenders to give the ball to a midfielder who then sends it to the wingers, who then cross the ball onto a striker. Now imagine this midfielder doesn't have the ability to be in the right position for a pass, cannot hold onto the ball, and cannot pass the ball to the wingers in the right spot either. Well in that case defenders aren't going to learn much about how to pass from repetition because the pass will almost never be available. The wingers will not learn much from repetition how to execute their part of the attack because they will almost never get the ball in the right position. Systems have interconnecting parts, especially on the pitch, the players cannot just 'do their part' with no regard for whatever else is happening.
It makes sense to implement a system if it can work to an acceptable degree. Then you improve it. Amorim is surely trying to implement this system because he thinks it can work with these players to an acceptable degree.
I agree, and Amorim didn’t want to start until summer for that reason I believe. But if you look at Dorgu I think it actually works to a degree already.
The board will have needed to decide whether they value him to the point where results are essentially irrelevant until he has a summer to get a better base of player in - because they believe long run if he gets it all working he can be something very special.
Or if that's not the case I don't really see why they would keep him around. I can only see it being the first option because if not they'd have sacked by now.
Or if that's not the case I don't really see why they would keep him around. I can only see it being the first option because if not they'd have sacked by now.
why did ten hag get sacked then? surely being 4 points off the fourth spot isn’t end of the world.
He was 7 points away and on a downward slope from the previous season.
United's best form this season was the period in which Ruud was interim up to Amorim's first game.
In hindsight maybe it was the wrong move, but at the time it looked like it was a good idea to change the manager.
There‘s a point where the pressure wears a manager down, and things become untenable.
Fecking off Ashworth and Ten Hag may have been a Ratcliffe move, throwing his toys out of the pram.
The expection was Amorim would stabilize the squad and get them to play coherently. Instead, we are seeing exactly the same issues.
That‘s why I think we should persist with Amorim longer, unless no improvements are visible in the remainder of the season.
I think the issue is far more complex, 4 points was still a continuation of the previous season where we finished 8th but were truly awful and should have finished much lower but for some very fortunate results, and lets not forget the truly awful European games! we won the cup because McLaren forced ETH to change tactics, INEOS could see no future with ETH as part of their new project, and who knows how relationships were internally.
Amorim was bought in as part of the project, the expectation from fans was that we would see a turn around in season, but Amorim warned against this at the outset and we have no information from the board to suggest that they had set an expectation for success.
INEOS are trying to fully reset the culture and operating model of the club, does anyone think that Amorim wants to be operating with barely a 1st 11, players leaving like Malacia, Rashford, Antony, and attempted Casemiro etc... are part of an over all strategy not purely driven by Amorim, whoever the manager is this is a project not a quick fix, and it is what we need.
Whilst I have been disappointed by some of our performances and results (well a lot) we are still clearly playing a more structured system which has worked very well at some points but is missing players to actually make it work, a lot of people saying we are playing worse football than ever, I do not see this I think we are generally playing better, attitude and physicality have let us down, and Amorim has been very unlucky with player errors which have cost us a good 12 points, but for my money we were much, much worse under ETH and not just in terms of general play, I mean I have never, ever seen any team play the rubbish we played last season, we were the worst footballing side in the league, with ETH it felt like it wouldn't matter how many players you gave him it was still not functional, whereas under Amorim I feel like he can succeed with the right players.
And lets not forget that ETH was responsible (at least partially) for some of the worst signings in the clubs history, and part of that was his inability to judge how capable his former players were.
It is far easier to do a job if there is no pressure. We are seeing how good Ruud is now the pressure is on him.
Was it? I thought the consensus was that we would be in for a period of transition?
Good post
It is. It was obvious that he had a style and we would need to find out who fits that style. The fact we have a squad that is either perpetually injured or cannot pass the ball to a teammate either because they are incapable of doing it or through choice has made it more difficult.
I am not asking him to prioritize youngsters. I am wondering why he doesn't use them late in games. Sometimes the introduction of fresh legs, youth and enthusiasm can have a positive effect.
I shouldn't have to explain this to fans of this club, which has been built on the back of giving youth players a chance. There have been multiple occasions when a youth player has come in and made a difference for us.
I know Rashford is public enemy number one right now, but he also got his chance in a similar situation and thrived. I don't think there is any other player since Fergie called it a day who has scored 20+ goals in three seasons for us.
https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...-ruben-amorim-arsenal-challenging-times-ahead
He literally warned us this would happen back in December. The anti Amorim brigade are seriously rewriting history to back up their misinformed points.
This was never going to be a period of stability or improvement.
He literally warned us this would happen back in December. The anti Amorim brigade are seriously rewriting history to back up their misinformed points.
This was never going to be a period of stability or improvement.
AVB joined in the summer of 2011, Chelsea signed the likes of Courtois, Mata, Lukaku, Meireles, Cahil, and Matic for him, and he had a full summer preseason to work with the squad, who finished 2nd the previous season under Anchelloti.. So completely different context.
I mean, it can all be true? Stabilise results (which Ruud did to be honest), out in a style of play, improve performances. None of which he's been able to do.
Even worse, he did the opposite. More volatile, worse performances, worse results
I know.
Imagine being a coach, witnessing this from players not signed by you, and you’ve got people banging on about formations etc
I sometimes wonder how coaches bite their lip with some of the rubbish fans and pundits come out with, but I suppose they just don’t want to throw their players under the bus.We're going in roundabouts rather it's the players or manager without considering the fact that it can be both sides doing a terrible job. We've recruited insanely bad over the years, and have brought in managers unsuitable to whatever strengths they have even if they're minimal. That's why Ole originally worked out well, he played to the strengths of the squad before his obvious shortcomings as a manager reared it's ugly head.
Only thing I would say is they should have left him until next summer. They know which system he plays and what attributes those players would need. They could have kept Ruud on and be analysing the squad. It is not rocket science that some are far too slow, and cannot pass wind nevermind the ball. It doesn't take a genius to see we need a prolific striker. They buggered our season in the summer, loading the squad with more players and then rushed Ruben into taking the job. That is all on the powers that be.
The worst thing is, this is what everyone wanted! I don't know one person that supports this club, that was happy with our situation or trajectory pre-Amorim and absolutely everyone was calling for a cultural reset, 'we're fragile mentally' etc. Well this is what you get when you do that. How anyone can expect to go through a reset but maintain stability is beyond me.
This line of thought is exclusive to this club. I have never heard a new manager at their new club needing to sign "their players" before they can show any improvement.Imagine being a coach, witnessing this from players not signed by you, and you’ve got people banging on about formations etc
Doesn't have to mean much but ever since Leicester game in the cup where we were definitely poor (especially first half) performances have mostly been bit better. Spurs away wasn't a bad performance, Everton I didn't watch but that was probably a poor one, Ipswich only saw 2nd half and that was good given we played with 10 men. Fulham wasn't a bad performance either despite loss on penalties. Then there's last night where we were better for at least 60-65 minutes before the penalty.
It's probably only slightly better performances than in January but hopefully we're moving into right direction. If we get knocked out of Europa it'll at least be just league games left and no excuses left for Amorim - he'll have plenty of time for training to make us look better. Results won't matter anymore as we're stuck in lower league position but at least try and improve us to extent.
It's probably only slightly better performances than in January but hopefully we're moving into right direction. If we get knocked out of Europa it'll at least be just league games left and no excuses left for Amorim - he'll have plenty of time for training to make us look better. Results won't matter anymore as we're stuck in lower league position but at least try and improve us to extent.
Yeah Pep definitely didn’t sign 13 players in his first two seasons to shape the squad into the way he wanted to play. To use just one example.
No one has asked him to win the league this season. The minimal ask is to improve performances and not lose 50% of your premier league games.
Yup, no else could have done that. Absolutely no one.
To add: Both Pep and Klopp were able to show signs of what they were building towards from the very beginning.
Weren't City already building a squad toward him coming as well, or at least getting the structure in place in the background.
Watch his recent interview with Rio. In his words "I didn't think we would be this bad".
His often repeated line the past few months have been:
"I don't know. I would change it if I knew"
"I just want to win right now. It is easier when you are winning"