Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach

Zumbi said:
Oh, you actually don’t understand percentiles. My bad.

You are confusing the percentage on the passing completion stat, with the percentile stat of how they compare to their peers. Those are two completely different things.
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Right... because you are struggling I will explain and see who doesnt get what.

Zumbi said:
Even if a player is in the 60th percentile of progressive passes, that still means they are progressing play better than more than half of their peers
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So 60th Percentile.... - not % percentile, according to you.

If a player had, above 50th percentile for passing %.... means as per your logic its good because they are better than half their peers.

So for you... as long as you are better than half your peers its good enough.

In theory... what you think is good and what I did is different... for you as 50th percentile is good enough and for me not. That is where the difference lies.
 
Eriku said:
2012-13 everybody says RvP was out best player. I think one could just as easily say Carrick, he was absolutely immense that season.

He would probably have been more important and more appreciated if he didn’t come into a midfield where Scholes is the one everybody looks to. He took a back seat for quite a while.
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Yep, agreed, he was spectacular that season - an absolute joy to watch. And how we could do with a player of his style and calibre in our current team.
 
romufc said:
Right... because you are struggling I will explain and see who doesnt get what.



So 60th Percentile.... - not % percentile, according to you.

If a player had, above 50th percentile for passing %.... means as per your logic its good because they are better than half their peers.

So for you... as long as you are better than half your peers its good enough.

In theory... what you think is good and what I did is different... for you as 50th percentile is good enough and for me not. That is where the difference lies.
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Stop straw manning me. I didn’t quote stats from anyone as low as 50 in their progressive passing percentile ranking. The lowest is quoted was 62 (which is still better than most of their peers) but the majority of the ones I quoted were in the 70s, 80 and 90s. That puts them in the upper tiers of progressive passers, as well as in the upper tiers of pass completion stats.

Once again, you were the one that falsely claimed you cannot have high pass completion stats and progress play. That is just not true and I gave you a list of players with stats which proves that’s not true.

You not being able to understand basic football stats doesn’t change that.
 
It's possible to have players who can dictate the tempo and progress play. In fact for a top team it's necessary, how else do you control games?

I look at PSG's midfield with envy. Vitinha and Neves are outstanding players and exactly the kind of players we need in the middle. The liquid football they're playing right now is thanks to that mix or intelligence and elite, technical security.

We don't have one midfielder who can do what these midfielders can do. It's a big issue and it's not a coincidence that every team performing to a high level in Europe does.
 
Zumbi said:
Stop straw manning me. I didn’t quote stats from anyone as low as 50 in their progressive passing percentile ranking. The lowest is quoted was 62 (which is still better than most of their peers) but the majority of the ones I quoted were in the 70s, 80 and 90s. That puts them in the upper tiers of progressive passers, as well as in the upper tiers of pass completion stats.

Once again, you were the one that falsely claimed you cannot have high pass completion stats and progress play. That is just not true and I gave you a list of players with stats which proves that’s not true.

You not being able to understand basic football stats doesn’t change that.
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I see... its because I watch football with my eyes not wait to see the stats... which you seem to do.....

Anyway... you seem to lack the understanding of the point, I will let you go back to your stat based football analysis.

The fact remains, having a CM who can score goals, assists like Bruno whilst having 90% ball retention and 90% progressive play is not possible.. apologies if I didnt say it specifically to you. I forget you read and interpret it in your own way.
 
romufc said:
I see... its because I watch football with my eyes not wait to see the stats... which you seem to do.....

Anyway... you seem to lack the understanding of the point, I will let you go back to your stat based football analysis.

The fact remains, having a CM who can score goals, assists like Bruno whilst having 90% ball retention and 90% progressive play is not possible.. apologies if I didnt say it specifically to you. I forget you read and interpret it in your own way.
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The first person to bring up stats was you with Bruno though.

I don't think we need to have a player who does all three things, but we absolutely need midfielders who can do the latter two.

I've also said it numerous times but it seems to have gone unregistered, we really need a midfielder who can run with the ball.
 
romufc said:
I see... its because I watch football with my eyes not wait to see the stats... which you seem to do.....

Anyway... you seem to lack the understanding of the point, I will let you go back to your stat based football analysis.

The fact remains, having a CM who can score goals, assists like Bruno whilst having 90% ball retention and 90% progressive play is not possible.. apologies if I didnt say it specifically to you. I forget you read and interpret it in your own way.
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You were the one that asked for the stats!

It was only when the stats contradicted your point that you suddenly became less interested in them.

And all you’ve done since then is dig holes and change goal posts.
 
dubplate warrior said:
The first person to bring up stats was you with Bruno though.

I don't think we need to have a player who does all three things, but we absolutely need midfielders who can do the latter two.

I've also said it numerous times but it seems to have gone unregistered, we really need a midfielder who can run with the ball.
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We dont need a player that does all 3 because you and Zumbi have a Bruno agenda.

Obviously you know more than Amorim, because he decides to play Bruno in CM because he can progress the play, why do I say that? in his post match interview against Sociedad, he specifically said, he has Bruno in the 6/8 so he can progress play. If you dont believe me, go watch his post match interview with TNT sports.

We have a midfielder in Kobbie who can run with the ball and pass at a high % but guess what... Amorim decided lately that he is suited to the 10.

So are you also in the camp that a player with 90% passing accuracy and 50th percentile of progressive carries as being ideal?
 
Zumbi said:
You were the one that asked for the stats!

It was only when the stats contradicted your point that you suddenly became less interested in them.

And all you’ve done since then is dig holes and change goal posts.
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yes, and I have also said Rodri is the special player, which is why he won the Ballon D'or, the only player with 90% pass accuracy and 90th percentile of progressive plays.

You seem to think that is the same as a player in 60th percentile. So its not moving goal posts, its just you not understanding.
 
romufc said:
yes, and I have also said Rodri is the special player, which is why he won the Ballon D'or, the only player with 90% pass accuracy and 90th percentile of progressive plays.

You seem to think that is the same as a player in 60th percentile. So its not moving goal posts, its just you not understanding.
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He’s not the only player with those stats. Reread that list again.

Nonetheless, you’re still changing the goal posts because your original claim was not there weren’t players with 90% pass completion and be in the 90th percentile of progressive passes.

Your original claim was that you cannot have 90% pass completion and progress play. You made it seem like you have to choose one or the other.

That is not true. Players in the 60-90 percentile of progressive passes are very obviously progressing play. Because that’s what that stat is measuring.

The bottom line is that really good passers of the ball can both keep it simple and play for retention, but they can also be expansive and play progressive passes. And a player in that mould would enhance our midfield greatly.
 
romufc said:
We dont need a player that does all 3 because you and Zumbi have a Bruno agenda.

Obviously you know more than Amorim, because he decides to play Bruno in CM because he can progress the play, why do I say that? in his post match interview against Sociedad, he specifically said, he has Bruno in the 6/8 so he can progress play. If you dont believe me, go watch his post match interview with TNT sports.

We have a midfielder in Kobbie who can run with the ball and pass at a high % but guess what... Amorim decided lately that he is suited to the 10.

So are you also in the camp that a player with 90% passing accuracy and 50th percentile of progressive carries as being ideal?
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What's up with you man, why are you fixated on one player and not on the actual point of what I'm trying to say? Bruno is a 6 due to a lack of options, not because that's where he is most effective.

Kobbie isn't a deep lying midfielder because that's not his game. It's nothing to do with not needing a central midfielder who can carry the ball and another midfielder who can reliably dictate tempo.
 
dubplate warrior said:
What's up with you man, why are you fixated on one player and not on the actual point of what I'm trying to say? Bruno is a 6 due to a lack of options, not because that's where he is most effective.

Kobbie isn't a deep lying midfielder because that's not his game. It's nothing to do with not needing a central midfielder who can carry the ball and another midfielder who can reliably dictate tempo.
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The discussion started with Bruno though... thats why. If you are talking of profiles, I agree we need different profiles.

If you actually see how Amorim plays, he doesn't play a Deep lying playmaker as such... its different profiles for different managers. Where Ten Hag liked to play a deep lying playmaker.

Out of interest, if you don't see Kobbie as a CM, where do you think is his best position?

Its not true, because we have Collyer, Eriksen, Ugarte, Casemiro, Mainoo as CM's and he choses to play Bruno and Casemiro/Ugarte
 
romufc said:
We dont need a player that does all 3 because you and Zumbi have a Bruno agenda.

Obviously you know more than Amorim, because he decides to play Bruno in CM because he can progress the play, why do I say that? in his post match interview against Sociedad, he specifically said, he has Bruno in the 6/8 so he can progress play. If you dont believe me, go watch his post match interview with TNT sports.

We have a midfielder in Kobbie who can run with the ball and pass at a high % but guess what... Amorim decided lately that he is suited to the 10.

So are you also in the camp that a player with 90% passing accuracy and 50th percentile of progressive carries as being ideal?
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Can you please stop straw manning me? It’s dishonest.

I never said anything about Bruno, and I never said a player with 90% passing completion and in the 50th percentile of progressive carries is ideal. I have no idea where you pulled that from.

Bruno’s ability to progress play is invaluable to us, but our team would function better if we had another midfielder who was a good enough passer that they could improve our ball retention and help with progressing play. That’s it. It’s not a complicated point.
 
romufc said:
The discussion started with Bruno though... thats why. If you are talking of profiles, I agree we need different profiles.

If you actually see how Amorim plays, he doesn't play a Deep lying playmaker as such... its different profiles for different managers. Where Ten Hag liked to play a deep lying playmaker.

Out of interest, if you don't see Kobbie as a CM, where do you think is his best position?

Its not true, because we have Collyer, Eriksen, Ugarte, Casemiro, Mainoo as CM's and he choses to play Bruno and Casemiro/Ugarte
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I see him as a 10. He's always been an attacking player and he doesn't have the engine to get up and down the pitch the way Amorim needs him to. I'd like him to have more games there because he's a class player and has the kind of technical ability we lack, I do worry about his physicality though.

Bruno has a hell of an engine, is our captain and most productive player. He has to play, but that doesn't mean he is naturally a 6 or is what we need in that position in the long run. His gut instinct is never going to be to play the simple pass or control the game, that's not his fault, it's not his strength, he's also not a 10, at least in this system.

Eriksen and Collyer are not serious options to regularly start games. Mainoo simply isn't a central midfielder, it took Amorim a while to realise it but he did in the end. Casemiro has only begun to play regularly since we have changed the way we press.
 
dubplate warrior said:
I see him as a 10. He's always been an attacking player and he doesn't have the engine to get up and down the pitch the way Amorim needs him to. I'd like him to have more games there because he's a class player and has the kind of technical ability we lack, I do worry about his physicality though.

Bruno has a hell of an engine, is our captain and most productive player. He has to play, but that doesn't mean he is naturally a 6 or is what we need in that position in the long run. His gut instinct is never going to be to play the simple pass or control the game, that's not his fault, it's not his strength, he's also not a 10, at least in this system.

Eriksen and Collyer are not serious options to regularly start games. Mainoo simply isn't a central midfielder, it took Amorim a while to realise it but he did in the end. Casemiro has only begun to play regularly since we have changed the way we press.
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A bit of poor form and an injury-ridden season and one of the most promising players of last season, and England setup at the Euros is now not even a central midfielder.
 
Cassidy said:
A bit of poor form and an injury-ridden season and one of the most promising players of last season, and England setup at the Euros is now not even a central midfielder.
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I just don't think it suits his game. I think his best traits are in the final third.

I could be completely wrong, and I love him as a player, but he doesn't have the engine required and he also isn't really interested in defending. Let's avoid the square pegs in round holes thing.
 
Stig said:
Those of you on here who are 'style of play experts'', can you see our style of play? If so what is it and is it what Amorim wants ?

Thanks.
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3 furlongs into a 16 furlong race.
Some people can see the horse that’s last in the race will finish much higher up by the end of the race. Most other people just assume the horse that’s last is rubbish .

You’re welcome.
 
Who came up with the chant from the other day? I really liked it and especially credit to the fans who kept it going so long. (The "Turn the Reds Arouuuuund" one)

If there's a more appropriate thread feel free to zoom me along to it.
 
DRJosh said:
This thread seems to have moved on from discussing Amorim.
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Just you wait until the international break ends, he’ll either the proclaimed the messiah or deadwood after the next game, then the next, and so on and so forth into eternity until he either wins things or is binned off.
 
CatsOfUlthar said:
Who came up with the chant from the other day? I really liked it and especially credit to the fans who kept it going so long. (The "Turn the Reds Arouuuuund" one)

If there's a more appropriate thread feel free to zoom me along to it.
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It's been going for a little while. I think Palace at home was the first time I'd heard it.
 
Posh Red said:
Also a lot quieter since there’s been a couple of half decent performances, but I guess that’s natural.
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Yes, not much to say. A couple of wins against teams we should really be beating. Leicester setting records for being in terrible form, Sociedad about where we are in the table but in Spain and they don't really have the strength in depth of the PL when it comes to spending power etc.

It's the disappointing losses/unexpected wins that will create the most discussion. Throw in international break now too.
 
I prefer the feeling of this group now, removing Rashford, Antony (and Sancho) might have left the squad lite on numbers, but the team has less baggage around it now and bringing in a few younger kids to make up the numbers just adds to the good mood feeling.
 
RuudTom83 said:
I prefer the feeling of this group now, removing Rashford, Antony (and Sancho) might have left the squad lite on numbers, but the team has less baggage around it now and bringing in a few younger kids to make up the numbers just adds to the good mood feeling.
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This makes such a difference to me in terms of actually liking the team, I see these young guys grafting (sometimes playing a bit shit but working hard nonetheless) and it makes you buy into their development and what 'could' be.
 
RuudTom83 said:
I prefer the feeling of this group now, removing Rashford, Antony (and Sancho) might have left the squad lite on numbers, but the team has less baggage around it now and bringing in a few younger kids to make up the numbers just adds to the good mood feeling.
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We've also benefited from a relatively easy schedule of late.

The upcoming fixtures are going to be telling.

I do hope we have turned the corner, but adopting a wait and see approach for now.
 
DevilRed said:
We've also benefited from a relatively easy schedule of late.

The upcoming fixtures are going to be telling.

I do hope we have turned the corner, but adopting a wait and see approach for now.
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We've technically done better in the bigger games under Amorim so far, it's the smaller fish we needed to start frying, and we're at least showing progress there. Question is can he start beating the teams around mid table.
 
Shark said:
We've technically done better in the bigger games under Amorim so far, it's the smaller fish we needed to start frying, and we're at least showing progress there. Question is can he start beating the teams around mid table.
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Yep, we struggle to play against teams that have a mid/low block at the moment because our build up is so pedestrian from the back.

We have had this issue for a while now, under Ole, Ten Hag and Amorim, we struggle to consistently beat teams that have a mid block, we end up conceding possession before it can reach the final third.

Personally, we need players that can keep the ball, receive the ball in tight spaces and keep it. I saw a passing network diagram where our most common pass is RCB to CB.. all within our own half whilst other teams have passing networks in the opposition half.
 
romufc said:
Yep, we struggle to play against teams that have a mid/low block at the moment because our build up is so pedestrian from the back.

We have had this issue for a while now, under Ole, Ten Hag and Amorim, we struggle to consistently beat teams that have a mid block, we end up conceding possession before it can reach the final third.

Personally, we need players that can keep the ball, receive the ball in tight spaces and keep it. I saw a passing network diagram where our most common pass is RCB to CB.. all within our own half whilst other teams have passing networks in the opposition half.
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Yeah that passing network diagram was brutal.
 
romufc said:
Yep, we struggle to play against teams that have a mid/low block at the moment because our build up is so pedestrian from the back.

We have had this issue for a while now, under Ole, Ten Hag and Amorim, we struggle to consistently beat teams that have a mid block, we end up conceding possession before it can reach the final third.

Personally, we need players that can keep the ball, receive the ball in tight spaces and keep it. I saw a passing network diagram where our most common pass is RCB to CB.. all within our own half whilst other teams have passing networks in the opposition half.
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It's why we need a midfielder who can pick up the ball from deep and progress play.
 
What is his chant to the tune of? I kind of know but also don't and it's doing my head in :lol:
 
Guys i am high like a kite, in a club full of sexy women & it's 2am here and I Love Manchester United with my soul.
United by soul and blood.
Our good days are coming, everyone should keep faith. We have been through dark days already. When those glorious days come remember me please.
 
Licha-Vidic said:
Guys i am high like a kite, in a club full of sexy women & it's 2am here and I Love Manchester United with my soul.
United by soul and blood.
Our good days are coming, everyone should keep faith. We have been through dark days already. When those glorious days come remember me please.
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:lol: get off your phone and go dance with some of those sexy women around you.
 
Licha-Vidic said:
Guys i am high like a kite, in a club full of sexy women & it's 2am here and I Love Manchester United with my soul.
United by soul and blood.
Our good days are coming, everyone should keep faith. We have been through dark days already. When those glorious days come remember me please.
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:lol:
 
Licha-Vidic said:
Guys i am high like a kite, in a club full of sexy women & it's 2am here and I Love Manchester United with my soul.
United by soul and blood.
Our good days are coming, everyone should keep faith. We have been through dark days already. When those glorious days come remember me please.
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Say hi to Molly!
 
Licha-Vidic said:
Guys i am high like a kite, in a club full of sexy women & it's 2am here and I Love Manchester United with my soul.
United by soul and blood.
Our good days are coming, everyone should keep faith. We have been through dark days already. When those glorious days come remember me please.
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Post worthy of a new tagline.
 
Remember the geese said:
It's been going for a little while. I think Palace at home was the first time I'd heard it.
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It was really noticeable the other day, I miss some games because of work and have to catch up later, so maybe I'm just not all that observant haha.

Either way I liked it. Nice to hear some positivity when literally everything is terrible otherwise!
 
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