Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach

[#07]

There is no way that INEOS would have thought this season would go as badly as it has when Amorim came in. They may have thought we would limp to the Europa Conference league. However, they probably thought things would pick up after an initial dip.

There has been no time under Amorim where you can say we have had weeks of good performances. Not even great performances, just all around decent to watch performances. It's basically been Amad and/or Bruno doing something special over a brief spell.

There are some mitigating factors and, if you really talk yourself into it, you can make a case for a proper storm up the table next season. But nobody would be shocked if Amorim's gone by Halloween and we are somewhere near the foot of the table at the time.

 

[roseguy64]

Honestly mate I give up with so many of our so called fans. This idea that someone comes in mid season taking over a behemoth like united and with no attacking players to work with and then has us playing sexy winning football in the space of 6 months is juvenile and unrealistic.

I don't see anyone asking for the club to be performing as well as Newcastle are. Expectations for pretty much all fans were lowered as everyone accepted the situation he was placed in. Just some have higher expectations than other but none as outlandish as that.

 

[Red00012]

You know there are ways of playing football right ? Besides how ETH implemented it is what got him sacked, not the formation itself

Not with our current set of players

 

[Frank White]

Points gaps between teams will naturally grow as more games are played. Surely this doesn’t really need explaining? It’s an extremely basic concept.

Really? Naturally i assumed we'd put more points on the board too by winning games. Point is being 12th we wasn't exactly in the gutter and we've progressively got worse week after week under Amorim.

 

[AjaxCunian]

Our xg is inevitably going to be lower when you consider a mid season change of system, the loss of our key forward, removal of a number of other squad forwards, and a further drop off in form by the likes of Hojlund.

If we get the recruitment right that xg figure will inevitably rise next year.

The mid season change of system could have been for the better, it doesn't have to be for worse. And by loss of our key forward you mean Diallo right?

I think it was already really bad with Diallo here, it only helped when Diallo played RWB and we played a bit more offensively late in games.

Hojlund has been hopeless, but we've seen much better from him. I think everyone will conclude that it's just not good enough, but the system hasn't helped him and a few others.

Add in Cherki/Delap/Cunha and I do think we will improve with better players.

 

[Frank Grimes]

Points gaps between teams will naturally grow as more games are played. Surely this doesn’t really need explaining? It’s an extremely basic concept.

He's averaging a point per game over a big sample size, truly awful. I want it to work for him but he shouldn't have carte blanche to lose 2/3 of all points without a lot of criticism coming with that.

Personally feel if he doesn't win Europa he is behind the cue ball and he won't last beyond next xmas.

 

[AjaxCunian]

Yes its not weakening the sqaud attacking options to remove Anotony and Rashford, ok you are welcome to that opinion. Rashford didn't want to be here, so not much he can do about that.

Yes, he said many things, including that we would have a lot of pain this season. Our issues are not really about playing a back 3 vs playing a back 4, the system (he said this) is not the formation.

Also I have already said he (Amorim) isn't doing a good job, and didn't say anything about 100m pounds, I simply said (as I did when ETH was here) that our attacking players are way below the standard required (ETH signed alot of them), and that we lost even more from that group under Amorim so I was not expecting many improvements in the attacking play.

He decided that he didn't need Antony, Rashford so not sure if it's weakening in that sense.

He wanted to rely on Bruno, Garnacho, Hojlund, Zirkzee, Diallo as forward options and some extent Eriksen, Mainoo. It was Amorim's choice.

Though our attackers are below standard, they have had their absolute worst form under Amorim so I'd also look to him and/or his system. Especially considering how poor of a job EtH was doing. Literally any coach would have been expected to be an improvement according to most.

 

[VP89]

At no point did I say it did

Then what was your point? That Amorim had many games to do better than where we are? If so yes.

 

[beck7]

I am less interested in what a manager can do in their first 20-30 games compared to what a manager can build in at least more than a season in terms of players, performances and a system.

Arguing ETH is better than Amorim is just plain naive. ETH spending a fortune buying players that weren't good enough and more importantly didn't fit the system that he wanted to play has to be one of the worst managerial tenures in football history.

 

[bosskeano]

can't see how you can blame Amorim when your strikers are Hojlund and Zirkzee....neither knows where the back of the net is and it's not like Rashford is exactly lighting it up at villa

11 appearances in league and CL.....1 goal and 3 assists

 

[Woziak]

Pereira (Wolves) - 8/2/6 (26 points in 16 games - 61 points over a season)

Moyes (Everton) - 5/6/2 (21 points in 13 games - 61 points over a season)

Amorim (United) - 6/5/10 (23 points in 21 games - 42 points over a season)

No one sane can possibly believe that our squad is worse than those two teams and yet Amorim has been completely outperformed by Moyes and Pereira who took over teams in much worse situations. I’m all for giving him time but I’m perplexed by the narrative that he couldn’t do any better with this squad. Quite clearly he’s failing badly presently and needs to improve results dramatically (even if we sign no one in the summer).

When laid out like this, it’s impossible to argue with your reasoning, personally if we need to get rid of him early next season we should be all over Oliver Glasner who plays a 3421 but is flexible enough to play 4231 or 433.

Fans thinking SJR has sound reasoning and will be back him for two years are crazy, I wouldn’t be surprised if United don’t win the Europa League which is almost a given, then they will be looking for a new coach from May1st 2025.

Amorim and his staff pay off will be no more than £15m max and they will weigh up that against a second year of no European football and that will mean ‘Good Night Vienna’ to Ruben and his laughable backroom staff I’m still struggling to understand what they do, the whole coaching team looks massively out of their death for an Elite Football Team.

 

[Cassidy]

Then what was your point? That Amorim had many games to do better than where we are? If so yes.

Yes sure that was my point yes

 

[UnofficialDevil]

We deserve to be 15th look at our squad, poor Amorim, cant expect him to play well against the barcodes

Sir Alex Ferguson went away to Germany to face a title-winning Wolfsburg side with this squad formation
He started with only ONE defender, eight midfielders and a striker way past his prime...he won 3-1.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

We deserve to be 15th look at our squad, poor Amorim, cant expect him to play well against the barcodes

Sir Alex Ferguson went away to Germany to face a title-winning Wolfsburg side with this squad formation
He started with only ONE defender, eight midfielders and a striker way past his prime...he won 3-1.

So, he played his favourite formation, applied his standard tactics and waited for the players to make it work instead of giving in to necessity and utilizing them in their "favourite positions"? I agree, this is the way to do it.

 

[bosskeano]

We deserve to be 15th look at our squad, poor Amorim, cant expect him to play well against the barcodes

Sir Alex Ferguson went away to Germany to face a title-winning Wolfsburg side with this squad formation
He started with only ONE defender, eight midfielders and a striker way past his prime...he won 3-1.

mate....look at the players though in that list

JSP, fletch, carrick ,evra, scholes, nani....all were fecking class players. hell even welbeck at that time was pretty decent, same for anderson and Owen while maybe older was still better than Hojlund or Zirkzee

 

[beck7]

We deserve to be 15th look at our squad, poor Amorim, cant expect him to play well against the barcodes

Sir Alex Ferguson went away to Germany to face a title-winning Wolfsburg side with this squad formation
He started with only ONE defender, eight midfielders and a striker way past his prime...he won 3-1.

If your point is Amorim is not as good as Sir Alex given what they both have done, then I think most of the CAF members if not all will agree with you even without that example.

 

[Leftback99]

We deserve to be 15th look at our squad, poor Amorim, cant expect him to play well against the barcodes

Sir Alex Ferguson went away to Germany to face a title-winning Wolfsburg side with this squad formation
He started with only ONE defender, eight midfielders and a striker way past his prime...he won 3-1.

It's almost like having good players matters.

 

[hellhunter]

It's almost like having good players matters.

Or good managers

 

[Carl]

Fair enough I'd agree waiting until the summer to change the formation/style of play might have been the wiser move on the clubs part. Ten Hag clearly had to go so an Interim could have been a better short term solution.

But ultimately we will go into next season with the majority of the current players. So Amorim would have had to work with the most of this squad that doesn't suit his style for a good while yet either way.

Perhaps. But we've already seen he's made pretty big moves in deciding Rashford and Antony aren't for him, so who knows what further changes will come. I do agree and accept that massive changes may not happen, because that's the trend we've seen, but I suppose we just have to wait and see. It's probably a case of chipping away at it for the next 3 windows to he completely honest.

 

[Kingdingaling]

It's almost like having good players matters.

Outside of Scholes, Evra and possibly Carrick, every one of those players would be mostly getting deemed ‘not good enough’ if they were playing in this current team, IMO.

More like, ‘it’s almost as if being the best manager of all time matters’.

 

[Leftback99]

Or good managers

Yeah I'm sure he'd have managed the same thing with conference players.

 

[Marwood]

Amorim could, conceivably, but given what the players have shown they're willing to try its hard to see how he could do this without big compromises.

Amorim's system depends on the third centre back being the spare man and stepping into midfield. That player is meant to take the ball and progress it. But our centre backs don't like having the ball to feet, they don't want to be on the half turn, they don't want to carry the ball, they don't want to pass through the lines. So what do we get? Five yard passes across the back line: 'You take it,' 'no, you take it.' They hide from the ball, they hide from the responsibility. Its sad to watch.

Then you get to the midfield. There's no Michael Carrick dropping in and picking up the ball to compensate from this cautiousness from the centre backs. We have Casemiro, good player, but not able to do the up and down work the way Amorim's system needs. Ugarte does the up and down work but can't pass. So now what happens? Bruno drops in and tries to advance the ball but when Bruno drops in we have one fewer attacking player and its like dropping a stone in water. There's a ripple effect in how many players we have in attacking positions.

What this system demands from the players we have means that we will end up being sucked backwards against any team of quality. I am not saying another system would be radically better and we'd suddenly be Brazil 1982 level entertainers. But, in part, the system is highlighting our weaknesses and stopping us from doing much different.

Now, despite my lack of belief in Amoirm, you can see a world in which things get better. Heaven looks decent with the ball to feet, Licha will eventually return, Shaw's fit again and that could have a huge impact on ball progression. Yoro will occassionally stretch his legs and carry the ball and he has good recovery pace. Mazraoui likewise. Maybe with a bit more confidence we'll start getting better progression out of the back. Add a couple of powerful ball carriers down the middle of the pitch to help link the play and you can see the possibility of a big change.

But even if that happens, for at least a couple of years, we'll only be a few injuries away from being unable to play football.

AND, for me, the big question is: What's the ceiling of that even if we get all the pieces? I hope to be proven wrong in my scepticism about the manager.

Good post.

Long term agree all those things needed or at least preferred.

But it's a hell of a task to ask players to start so deep, invite a press right on the edge of our pen area and then play through it, step past players. Especially asking that of the CB's. Do any current CB's in the Prem really do that?

I don’t question just the ceiling of that type of play bit is it realistically possible at all.

 

[Cathy Ferguson]

Neither Moyes or Pereira have tried to implement an entirely different system to the one they were playing before.

Had we brought in another manager that played a 4231 or whatever I don't doubt we'd be higher in the league right now. We've been here before right?

Agreed. There is no magical about 3421 so the smart move would have been to stick with 4231 and do the squad rebuilding that we need regardless of system. Changing system just adds additional risk without clear and obvious reward.

 

[dubplate warrior]

It's worth pointing out Palace play with the same formation, broadly speaking, but use very different tactics and have scored more goals whilst conceding less. Less focus on possession, way more aggressive in specific areas and happy to let the opponent have the ball - then they feed a fast but quite limited front three. Basically what we have. The slow possession from the back is what's killing us, the PL has too many teams that will punish you as that recent graph shows in terms of us losing the ball. It's the style not the formation alone.

We have a much better squad than them, even with all the loaned out players.

Crystal Palace have better attacking players than us. They also have a more athletic midfield and a better goalkeeper. We think the squad is better than it is but in reality in the last 4 seasons we've finished 7th, 3rd, 8th and now languish in the bottom half of the table.

 

[Leftback99]

Outside of Scholes, Evra and possibly Carrick, every one of those players would be mostly getting deemed ‘not good enough’ if they were playing in this current team, IMO.

More like, ‘it’s almost as if being the best manager of all time matters’.

If you say so. Nani would be our best player by a mile. Welbeck even now massively improves us.

 

[HTG]

We deserve to be 15th look at our squad, poor Amorim, cant expect him to play well against the barcodes

Sir Alex Ferguson went away to Germany to face a title-winning Wolfsburg side with this squad formation
He started with only ONE defender, eight midfielders and a striker way past his prime...he won 3-1.

Ah, that beautiful Wolfsburg front three with Misimovic, Grafite and Dzeko. Those were the times.

 

[Kingdingaling]

If you say so. Nani would be our best player by a mile. Welbeck even now massively improves us.

By a mile, if you say so.

Bruno is a better player and has contributed more to the club.

Nani averaged about 4 goals a season - he would be getting ridiculed just like the rest of our current players if he played in todays team.

 

[Marwood]

We deserve to be 15th look at our squad, poor Amorim, cant expect him to play well against the barcodes

Sir Alex Ferguson went away to Germany to face a title-winning Wolfsburg side with this squad formation
He started with only ONE defender, eight midfielders and a striker way past his prime...he won 3-1.

In 2005 Fergie also finished bottom of an ECL group containing containing Villarreal, Benfica and Lille

The team that lost to Benfica in the final game? VDS, O'Shea, Silvestre, Ferdinand, Neville, Giggs, Scholes, Smith,Ronaldo, RVN, Rooney.

 

[TrivelaDeBruno]

We deserve to be 15th look at our squad, poor Amorim, cant expect him to play well against the barcodes

Sir Alex Ferguson went away to Germany to face a title-winning Wolfsburg side with this squad formation
He started with only ONE defender, eight midfielders and a striker way past his prime...he won 3-1.

This is so disingenuous it's comical.

First of all, here is Wolfsburg's terrifying squad for that season.

https://www.transfermarkt.us/vfl-wolfsburg/startseite/verein/82/saison_id/2009

Second, this was the very last match week of the group stage, and we had the the group won.


How can you possibly make this comparison in good faith. The best manager of all time in in his 14th or 15th season, seasoned leaders who played and won everything with him establishing a dressing room atmosphere that was as close to perfect as you'll get, playing in the only system each and every one of those players had known at United. If you would have posted a picture of a puppy with no text, it would have been equally as relevant to this discussion as your post.

 

[FortunaUtd]

Beating a "title winning Wolfsburg"! What a story that is. Stuff of legends

 

[dubplate warrior]

By a mile, if you say so.

Bruno is a better player and has contributed more to the club.

Nani averaged about 4 goals a season - he would be getting ridiculed just like the rest of our current players if he played in todays team.

Nani was a great player. Really bored of people solely using stats as a metric of quality. Footballs played on grass mate.

 

[OverratedOpinion]

Nani was a great player. Really bored of people solely using stats as a metric of quality. Footballs played on grass mate.

I agree in theory but saying Nani was a better football player than Bruno is such an outlandish opinion that it doesn't really deserve in depth analysis or debate.

 

[KStandBarmyArmy1993]

Nani was a great player. Really bored of people solely using stats as a metric of quality. Footballs played on grass mate.

Nani was a great player for about 2 and a half years between January 2010 and May 2012. Either side of that, he was very inconsistent.

 

[OverratedOpinion]

Ah, that beautiful Wolfsburg front three with Misimovic, Grafite and Dzeko. Those were the times.

Didn't Grafite score an absolute worldie against Bayern? I can't seem to find it on YouTube.

Edit.. He did indeed

 

[Leftback99]

Nani was a great player. Really bored of people solely using stats as a metric of quality. Footballs played on grass mate.

He was outstanding in 10/11 in particular. Should have won player of the year in the PL.

 

[Bobski]

The owners have created this scenario. If they had pulled the trigger on Ten Hag when they should have then Amorin potentially would have had money to bring in a few players to suit his vision and we would be at a point were we could make an initial judgement on him. But they didn't and we aren't, the results have been awful, far worse than anyone could have expected and there have only been brief glimpses of promise in the system and style of play, but he gets a free pass due to the shambles around him.

Pretty concerning that he is getting worse results than Ten Hag did with his insane tactics despite that.

 

[Nori-]

What worries me most about Amorim is his inability to adapt and make the most of what he has, until he can get his own people in.

I get the whole "it's not his team", "they don't know his tactics" arguments but these are not Sunday league players. Some have won leagues, reached cup finals, won individual award etc, they are professional athletes, to then not even be able to manage them to a top 10 finish is crazy to me. You'll never convince me they are so bad that anything above 15th is an achievement.

Is Amorim only capable of one style of football? Can he not improve the garbage he's been handed even slightly? We've actually gotten worse than we were under ETH.

 

[SalfordRed18]

What worries me most about Amorim is his inability to adapt and make the most of what he has, until he can get his own people in.

I get the whole "it's not his team", "they don't know his tactics" arguments but these are not Sunday league players. Some have won leagues, reached cup finals, won individual award etc, they are professional athletes, to then not even be able to manage them to a top 10 finish is crazy to me. You'll never convince me they are so bad that anything above 15th is an achievement.

Is Amorim only capable of one style of football? Can he not improve the garbage he's been handed even slightly? We've actually gotten worse than we were under ETH.

What's would be the point long term? You can adapt and play to this squads "strengths" but ultimately the squad is not good enough to do anything in the league. Sure, we might get better than a 15th place finish, but It's short sighted.

Were better off implementing the style of football we want to play long term now, sink or swim. The players that are actually good enough will learn the system and the ones who can't move on. They get replaced by amorims players and low and behold next season, ideally we can hit the ground running.

 

[Cathy Ferguson]

What's would be the point long term? You can adapt and play to this squads "strengths" but ultimately the squad is not good enough to do anything in the league. Sure, we might get better than a 15th place finish, but It's short sighted.

Were better off implementing the style of football we want to play long term now, sink or swim. The players that are actually good enough will learn the system and the ones who can't move on. They get replaced by amorims players and low and behold next season, ideally we can hit the ground running.

Why would Amorim's system be better long term than 4231? If we need 10 new players I would rather recruit them to fit 4231 than 3421.

 

[Stig]