Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach | Thread locked during matches

[Raoul]

Frank had his team 5 places below their finish the previous year, Tuchel came in, completely changed system, got them quickly back up to their previous levels.

Our new manager hasn’t gotten us back up 5 places to 8th, he’s made us fecking worse.

I’m very worried that’s the difference between a top manager and someone who is going to struggle. At the very least I expected him to come in, show he’s a better coach than ETH and get us back to top 8.

The obvious difference being Tuchel had access to mostly the same players who finished top 4 just six months earlier. If you inherit a CL calibre team, that's much better than inheriting one who finished mid table.

 

[Jev]

Don't think our form has got any worse. ETH left the club with 4 wins in 14, one of which was a 7-0 win against Barnsley. We were freaking out that we'd be out of Europe given he drew the first 3 fixtures and here we are in a semi final.

Our form is pretty much the same with the same glaring issues. Just we look a little bit more prepared and defend better (with a few exceptions).

This is silly. It provably has gotten worse – and over a larger sample size with less room for random variations.

 

[Marwood]

In response to somebody saying Garnacho has barely scored since November you said:

Did anything change in November?

clearly you meant Amorim being appointed.

Then I asked how has Amorim made him a worse finisher you said:

Maybe openly criticising him wasn’t great for his confidence? All I can point to are facts. He was scoring more previously.

But now you're claiming you never said or suggested Garnacho's lack of goals are down to Amorim.

You're just desperately spamming criticism at the manager and when called out backtracking.

 

[acnumber9]

Would you feel this way if we qualify for the CL ?

Did we not make this mistake last season? Giving an out of their depth manager more time off the back of a cup win? To answer the question, I’d be a little torn. Winning a trophy is massive but then Di Matteo won the big one and he shouldn’t have been allowed to carry on. I’d say I wouldn’t be confident with him as manager moving forward without improvement in performances between now and then.

 

[hellhunter]

This is silly. It provably has gotten worse – and over a larger sample size with less room for random variations.

Before people jump in citing injuries and loaning out players, I believe it was worse at every single point of Amorim's tenure, even when everyone was fit and available

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

The obvious difference being Tuchel had access to mostly the same players who finished top 4 just six months earlier. If you inherit a CL calibre team, that's much better than inheriting one who finished mid table.

Amorim has last season’s 8th placed team + De Ligt, Maz, Yoro, Ugarte and now Dorgu man.
So he has the 8th placed team plus some very good players to boot.

I’m not expecting him to get top 4, just to fecking improve to say, 8th, top 10 even.
He’s gotten worse, it’s laughably shit.

 

[acnumber9]

I know it's "early doors" but do you reckon we are a better team currently than what ETH had us at? I know there's a lot of his shit players still in our rotation but just checking in on this.

I think we're slightly more solid but we cannot buy a goal. And i think ditching Rashy and Antony without any signing was a bad call. Especially as Amad got injured. But i understand ditching them generally.

We’re conceding more and for this supposed improvement we are sacrificing an extra attacker.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

But now you're claiming you never said or suggested Garnacho's lack of goals are down to Amorim.

I think confidence is very important for any forward, not least a very young one.
Knocking that confidence is on the manager this time.

 

[hellhunter]

I think confidence is very important for any forward, not least a very young one.
Knocking that confidence is on the manager this time.

It's not only Garnacho, even Hojlund looked like a mediocre striker last season

 

[NicolaSacco]

I know it's "early doors" but do you reckon we are a better team currently than what ETH had us at? I know there's a lot of his shit players still in our rotation but just checking in on this.

I think we're slightly more solid but we cannot buy a goal. And i think ditching Rashy and Antony without any signing was a bad call. Especially as Amad got injured. But i understand ditching them generally.

Depends on which bit of Ten Hag's tenure I reckon. Utd look a bit more of a team than in the first 10 games (or whatever) of the PL this season. But it's a huge stretch to say they are better than the team who finished 3rd with 75 points.

 

[RedSky]

It has though. Ten Hag averaged 1.22 points per game when he was sacked. Amorim is averaging 1.05.

Unless you're debating PL only. In all comps it's as below:

ETH had 4 wins and 5 draws in 14, that's 1.2 per game. 21 scored, 17 conceded, GD +4.
Amorim has 14 wins and 7 draws in 34, that's 1.4 per game. 54 scored, 53 conceded, GD +1.

 

[Marwood]

I think confidence is very important for any forward, not least a very young one.
Knocking that confidence is on the manager this time.

Just to be clear, because another poster made the same point but then backtracked and said I was arguing in bad faith.

You're putting Garnacho's poor finishing down to Amorim?

 

[Daydreamer]

Hang on mate. Let's not start rewriting the past or this can't be a sensible debate.

You were 10th when Arteta took over in the December. You finished 8th. Two points above 10th placed Burnley(managed by Dyche). He barely budged the needle for you in the league. Basically no improvement.

After finishing 8th in his first season you then had your worst ever start to the following season. Beat the first three games incl one to a promoted team and a thrashing from City.

Dec '20, a year after Arteta taking over you were 15th in the table.

At that point don't tell me you thought Arteta was performing in line with the other top managers? I must be imagining all the calls to sack him if so.

By your own logic of judging him against his peers he should have been sacked then.

He's still only won one trophy and that was with Emery's team. ETH won us two. Slot has won the league in his first season. Arteta has barely challenged Slot this season.

Arguably even now he's still underperforming relative to his peers.

I can’t tell if you’re being serious or trolling.

- Arsenal were 11th when Arteta took over in December 20th.

- We finished 8th (3 places higher) because virtually half the season had already been played.

- Had the season started the day he was appointed, we would have finished 5th (6 places higher).

- But because nearly half of that season’s fixtures had already been played, this didn’t “move the needle” all 6 places, but only 3 places.

- Arteta then won the FA Cup, beating City and Chelsea on the way.

The only person rewriting history is you. You’re even attributing Arteta’s cup victory to it being “Emery’s team”. All blame goes to Arteta, all credit goes to his predecessor - at least show some consistency.

Arteta’s first season was nothing like Amorim’s. Amorim has the worst record of any United in PL history. Arteta’s second season started poorly, but he had credit in the bank with the board and most supporters.

The biggest difference is that, whether positively or negatively, everyone was allowed to judge Arteta by the end of his first season despite joining midway through. Even though he was playing with Emery’s team, as you put it. In fact, though Arteta talked about preferring the 4-3-3 formation we gradually built the squad towards, we played with 3 at the back for a long time as Arteta adapted to the squad he inherited.

Contrastingly, you still haven’t answered the question I’ve asked several times. When are we allowed to analyse Amorim’s performance? It seems as though all discussion of how he’s doing is shut down, but I really don’t get why.

 

[USREDEVIL]

Unless you're debating PL only. In all comps it's as below:

ETH had 4 wins and 5 draws in 14, that's 1.2 per game. 21 scored, 17 conceded, GD +4.
Amorim has 14 wins and 7 draws in 34, that's 1.4 per game. 54 scored, 53 conceded, GD +1.

Kind of a wash tbh. I think we're all hoping that a summer of signings will transform the team. Because if we only do marginal purchases this summer, we are mid table at best.

 

[Raoul]

Amorim has last season’s 8th placed team + De Ligt, Maz, Yoro, Ugarte and now Dorgu man.
So he has the 8th placed team plus some very good players to boot.

I’m not expecting him to get top 4, just to fecking improve to say, 8th, top 10 even.
He’s gotten worse, it’s laughably shit.

I agree with you in that I think we should be higher up the table, but I'm not prepared to jettison Amorim because we are 14th instead of say, 7th. My expectation of this year was that it may simply be a write off. If we happen to make the CL then it would be successful, but I didn't expect us to instantly turn it around in the league. Its going to take at least a full season alongside a summer window for that.

 

[Raoul]

Did we not make this mistake last season? Giving an out of their depth manager more time off the back of a cup win? To answer the question, I’d be a little torn. Winning a trophy is massive but then Di Matteo won the big one and he shouldn’t have been allowed to carry on. I’d say I wouldn’t be confident with him as manager moving forward without improvement in performances between now and then.

I think if we make the CL, then that's a massive accomplishment that can be used to finance a much better set of players this summer, which would obviously play a massive role in our league prospects next year.

 

[GaryLifo]

Don't most teams play 6 or 7 defensive players?

Keeper, back 4 plus one dm is already 6.

fecking laughable this 7 defensive players and still concede criticism. Utter bollocks it is. Did you know Liverpool play 6 defensive players and still let in goals? Sack the manager is the only solution. Arsenal play 7 defensive players and they also concede goals. Arteta out

 

[acnumber9]

Unless you're debating PL only. In all comps it's as below:

ETH had 4 wins and 5 draws in 14, that's 1.2 per game. 21 scored, 17 conceded, GD +4.
Amorim has 14 wins and 7 draws in 34, that's 1.4 per game. 54 scored, 53 conceded, GD +1.

I was because we’re not relying on luck of the draw etc with cup competitions. You need to use extra time to get Amorim to 14 wins too.

 

[RedSky]

Kind of a wash tbh. I think we're all hoping that a summer of signings will transform the team. Because if we only do marginal purchases this summer, we are mid table at best.

Oh I agree, it's nothing to sing praises about. Far from it, but people picking and choosing what stats to present and then declare we're worse just frustrates me. Keep it balanced, we're worse in the PL sure, but we also have done better in the cups and generally improved since ETH has been sacked. Neither Manager has got us remotely close to where we want to be. But we're also playing with one arm behind our back with having very few players that can hit the ball in the net. Which makes football pretty tricky.

 

[acnumber9]

I think if we make the CL, then that's a massive accomplishment that can be used to finance a much better set of players this summer, which would obviously play a massive role in our league prospects next year.

But we could buy those players with another manager too. Basically it would boil down to one game being the reason to keep a manager. We should probably learn from that mistake.

 

[GaryLifo]

Depends on your time horizon. If we're looking at fixing our problems long term, it might warrant forgoing short term satisfaction to eventually get there.

A point lost on quite a few on here unfortunately. They want results and they want them NOW

 

[RedSky]

I was because we’re not relying on luck of the draw etc with cup competitions. You need to use extra time to get Amorim to 14 wins too.

A win is a win. Who cares if it's on pens, extra time, an own goal, disqualification whatever. feck me you're tedious.

 

[erikcred]

But we could buy those players with another manager too. Basically it would boil down to one game being the reason to keep a manager. We should probably learn from that mistake.

We should, but...

 

[Raoul]

But we could buy those players with another manager too. Basically it would boil down to one game being the reason to keep a manager. We should probably learn from that mistake.

We could, but that's not a likely scenario though is it. There is literally zero smoke that we're parting ways with Amorim, and in fact, Ratcliffe just came out and said he likes Ruben and the squad have a transfer budget prepared to buy players this summer. Further, Amorim is Berada's guy - as in, it was Berada who insisted we not only buy Ruben, but do so immediately in the middle of the season to prevent City from replacing Pep with him if Pep decided not to renew. Therefore beyond the simple logic of giving Amorim two seasons and at least one summer window before re-assessing, the leadership of the club appear to be doubling down on building on his project this summer.

 

[Marwood]

Amorim has last season’s 8th placed team + De Ligt, Maz, Yoro, Ugarte and now Dorgu man.
So he has the 8th placed team plus some very good players to boot.

I’m not expecting him to get top 4, just to fecking improve to say, 8th, top 10 even.
He’s gotten worse, it’s laughably shit.

If you're mentioning players that arrived you also have to mention players that left. It's not last seasons team plus those additions is it?

Amrabat, Varane, Malacia, McTominay, AWB gone.

It's debatable I guess but I don’t see too much of an overall difference there.

In the forward positions, the area that's causing almost all of our problems, we haven't improved the personnel. We've regressed if anything.

 

[Marwood]

I can’t tell if you’re being serious or trolling.

- Arsenal were 11th when Arteta took over in December 20th.

- We finished 8th (3 places higher) because virtually half the season had already been played.

- Had the season started the day he was appointed, we would have finished 5th (6 places higher).

- But because nearly half of that season’s fixtures had already been played, this didn’t “move the needle” all 6 places, but only 3 places.

- Arteta then won the FA Cup, beating City and Chelsea on the way.

The only person rewriting history is you. You’re even attributing Arteta’s cup victory to it being “Emery’s team”. All blame goes to Arteta, all credit goes to his predecessor - at least show some consistency.

Arteta’s first season was nothing like Amorim’s. Amorim has the worst record of any United in PL history. Arteta’s second season started poorly, but he had credit in the bank with the board and most supporters.

The biggest difference is that, whether positively or negatively, everyone was allowed to judge Arteta by the end of his first season despite joining midway through. Even though he was playing with Emery’s team, as you put it. In fact, though Arteta talked about preferring the 4-3-3 formation we gradually built the squad towards, we played with 3 at the back for a long time as Arteta adapted to the squad he inherited.

Contrastingly, you still haven’t answered the question I’ve asked several times. When are we allowed to analyse Amorim’s performance? It seems as though all discussion of how he’s doing is shut down, but I really don’t get why.

If Amorim is 15th a year after he started like Arteta was you could sack him for me.

If he builds a team, spends a fortune and five years later that team hasn't won anything...sack him.

If five years after taking over he's moving further away from winning the league...sack him.

 

[stevoc]

So he stopped scoring after that… hmmmm

But the manager and his system STILL isn’t even partially to blame? Which some would have you believe.

To be fair mate I haven't said that.

I’m with you in that full backs as wing backs and two DM means it’s just harder for our players, and I’m not convinced we’ll ever get the best out of Amad nor Garna with this.

Realistically we have the CB’s, one DM, Dalot (if generous), and Bruno, Amad, Garna, Mount.

That leaves us needing another go at a left wing back, a centre mid and a forward.

Do people really think 3 players turns this from 1.05 ppg to anything like 2.2 for Mourinho type form? I don’t.

I also think current Mourinho would have this lot miles further up the table if he’d taken over in November.

I have my own doubts that only a few new signings will dramitically improve things on it's own. But I also believe the majority of these players confidence is shot and they are playing well below their true levels. So if Amroim can lift squad morale next season I think that arguably more than new signings will improve our fortunes.

 

[stevoc]

That's what happens when you sack an underperforming manager and hire a new one mid season; who you knew would bring a new system, formation, and tactics with him resulting in the entire team having to scramble to learn a new approach with minimal training and significant injuries.



We would definitely be close if not in the top 4 with a player like Gyokeres or Osimhen banging in goals this year. Forest are in 3rd and only have 15 more goals than us at present.

Possible mate but given how much more goals City and Newcastle have scored than us. We'd have needed a striker scoring 25-30 league goals. Only Salah has that this season.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

If you're mentioning players that arrived you also have to mention players that left. It's not last seasons team plus those additions is it?

Amrabat, Varane, Malacia, McTominay, AWB gone.

It's debatable I guess but I don’t see too much of an overall difference there.

In the forward positions, the area that's causing almost all of our problems, we haven't improved the personnel. We've regressed if anything.

fecking ell now you’re just taking the piss.

Varane played 1371 minutes
De Ligt already has 2093 minutes

Malacia played 0 fecking minutes

Amrobat 932 minutes
Ugarte 1568 mins already

Amad last season = 383 mins
This season 1595

Maz v AWB… make of that what you like.

So we’re left with Dorgu, Yoro v erm McTom.

No question we have a stronger squad man, and as I say, all I expected was a move up from 13th to something similar to what a weaker squad managed last season, instead we’ve gone the other way.

 

[Daydreamer]

If Amorim is 15th a year after he started like Arteta was you could sack him for me.

There’s a big difference being 15th December (and ending the season in 8th) and finishing the season in 15th. But you know that. At least I hope you do.

The funny thing is, I’ve not once called for Amorim to be sacked.

 

[Raoul]

Possible mate but given how much more goals City and Newcastle have scored than us. We'd have needed a striker scoring 25-30 league goals. Only Salah has that this season.

In all comps, Haaland and Isak have 30 and 25 respectively, with a handful of fixtures still outstanding. If we had anything like that from Hojlund, we would at least be near (or possibly in) the top 4. We're just not scoring goals and resolving that will instantly resolve a vast majority of our problems.

 

[Marwood]

fecking ell now you’re just taking the piss.

Varane played 1371 minutes
De Ligt already has 2093 minutes

Malacia played 0 fecking minutes

Amrobat 932 minutes
Ugarte 1568 mins already

Amad last season = 383 mins
This season 1595

Maz v AWB… make of that what you like.

So we’re left with Dorgu, Yoro v erm McTom.

No question we have a stronger squad man, and as I say, all I expected was a move up from 13th to something similar to what a weaker squad managed last season, instead we’ve gone the other way.

I like the defensive signings we made and they've all performed pretty much.

And we do look a bit better I think in that sense. The battering have stopped at least, the crazy number of shots being conceded.

But it's a stretch to say we're significantly better off when you look at who left. That's taking the piss. Or just flat out not mentioning the players that left when drawing a squad comparison to last season.

What about the squad in the forward areas. You think that's improved this season?

 

[Daydreamer]

If Amorim is 15th a year after he started like Arteta was you could sack him for me.

If he builds a team, spends a fortune and five years later that team hasn't won anything...sack him.

If five years after taking over he's moving further away from winning the league...sack him.

Are you feeling alright, mate? Is this argument really about you thinking we should sack Arteta?

I’m happy with the job he’s doing. If you disagree that’s fine, you wouldn’t be alone.

But if you think Arteta isn’t doing well enough to keep his job at Arsenal, I’d deduce that you have some pretty high standards for Managers.

Which makes your stance on Amorim even more nonsensical than I already thought.

Each to their own.

 

[acnumber9]

A win is a win. Who cares if it's on pens, extra time, an own goal, disqualification whatever. feck me you're tedious.

Because Ten Hag doesn’t get the benefit of extra time in one of his draws does he? Talking of tedious.

 

[acnumber9]

We could, but that's not a likely scenario though is it. There is literally zero smoke that we're parting ways with Amorim, and in fact, Ratcliffe just came out and said he likes Ruben and the squad have a transfer budget prepared to buy players this summer. Further, Amorim is Berada's guy - as in, it was Berada who insisted we not only buy Ruben, but do so immediately in the middle of the season to prevent City from replacing Pep with him if Pep decided not to renew. Therefore beyond the simple logic of giving Amorim two seasons and at least one summer window before re-assessing, the leadership of the club appear to be doubling down on building on his project this summer.

And the same leadership said Dan Ashworth was best in class and sacked him five months later. Words, particularly those from Ratcliffe/INEOS, count for very little.

 

[Marwood]

Are you feeling alright, mate? Is this argument really about you thinking we should sack Arteta?

I’m happy with the job he’s doing. If you disagree that’s fine, you wouldn’t be alone.

But if you think Arteta isn’t doing well enough to keep his job at Arsenal, I’d deduce that you have some pretty high standards for Managers.

Which makes your stance on Amorim even more nonsensical than I already thought.

Each to their own.

I'm all good. I don’t really care if you sack Arteta or not. Hey we just can't have Arsenal fans rewriting what happened with Arteta and applying different standards to our manager. If our manager is to be compared to his peers wihout any context so should Arteta. That's what debating is.

You're happy with him now. Plenty weren't after 12 month sitting in 15th and rightly so.

 

[GaryLifo]

Are you feeling alright, mate? Is this argument really about you thinking we should sack Arteta?

I’m happy with the job he’s doing. If you disagree that’s fine, you wouldn’t be alone.

But if you think Arteta isn’t doing well enough to keep his job at Arsenal, I’d deduce that you have some pretty high standards for Managers.

Which makes your stance on Amorim even more nonsensical than I already thought.

Each to their own.

Arteta is doing a very good job at arsenal and his progress shows the value of sticking with a manager where there is a clear plan in place to fix the recruitment issues of previous regimes.

His problem is going to be lack of trophies if you don't manage to win the CL this year and then don't put up a better title challenge next season, but even then he's hardly in line for the sack.

I say all this despite thinking the fella behaves like a total bell end during matches, going mental over throw in decisions on the halfway line etc

 

[stevoc]

In all comps, Haaland and Isak have 30 and 25 respectively, with a handful of fixtures still outstanding. If we had anything like that from Hojlund, we would at least be near (or possibly in) the top 4. We're just not scoring goals and resolving that will instantly resolve a vast majority of our problems.

Yeah but only league goals count for this. City have 26 more goals than us and are 5th. Their goals against, same with Newcastle is similar to ours. So realistically we'd have needed a striker to get us 26-27 goals. I don't know if we can attract someone capable of doing that for us next season. I hope we can but I'm not confident, especially if we're not in the CL.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

What about the squad in the forward areas. You think that's improved this season?

Absolutely, Amad has played four times as many minutes as last season so he’s a significant upgrade on anything.
I think Zirk is a nice option too, growing slowly into his role.
Getting rid of Rashford AND Antony was stupid as feck mind.

 

[Daydreamer]

I'm all good. I don’t really care if you sack Arteta or not. Hey we just can't have Arsenal fans rewriting what happened with Arteta and applying different standards to our manager. If our manager is to be compared to his peers wihout any context so should Arteta. That's what debating is.

You're happy with him now. Plenty weren't after 12 month sitting in 15th and rightly so.

But if you compared them to each other with no context (so how they both fared at the end of their first PL season) then one made a decent start and the other made literally the worst start in their club’s modern history.

You’re not actually debating at all. You’re just essentially saying “if you think my Manager should be sacked, then I think your Manager should be sacked”. Which is amusing, but not really much of a discussion.

Anyway, as I’ve said, I’m not actually calling for him to be sacked. I just think the demand that he is immune to criticism, despite being Manager for the majority of a league campaign is truly odd, particularly for a club the size of Manchester United.