Yeah the Brazil national one
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach | Thread locked during matches
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Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) discuss United's fantastic win away against Athletic Club in the semi-final of the Europa League.
They also pick out the positives of United's 4-3 loss away at Brentford, and Nik reviews a day out at Old Trafford watching Manchester United Women qualify for the Champions League.
I would like to see anywhere I have moaned constantly about players, or referred to them as ‘shite’, anywhere on the forum. Thanks.
Of course it was
Trying to second guess Ratcliffe’s words just seems silly. For now he is still very much publicly backing him, anything more than that is just conjecture. I’m pretty sure Ratcliffe is also well aware of the issues in the squad.
I don’t think I said it was a great point, but we were clearly the better side let down again by a failure to take our chances (story of our season). We also clearly have one eye on the EL. It’s less about being glass half full, and more about giving the manager sufficient time and resource to implement the changes he seeks. I was initially supportive of ETH when he arrived, but by last season I was very much in the sack him group, and thought extending him after the FA cup was a terrible decision. No one who is backing Amorim is doing so because of some blind allegiance to the manager, we just are aware making the changes required (for any manager) takes time - particularly when you’re making a system change - and certainly requires more than 6 months and no summer transfer window.
NYT / The Athletic claim he's already agreed to join, but I'm not seeing anything in the Brazilian media just yet (feels like they're being extra cautious after jumping the gun last time).
Have you ever stopped to consider it's the way you complain rather than the complaining itself? There are many people on here who complain about Amorim and complained about ETH and none of them got banned for it.
It's funny to see so many people ready to move on already. Who do these people think will be the manager to improve this squad of absolute dross without any money?
When Amorim signed, many Sporting fans warned us of this exact situation. Big name, disruptive players would be moved on, he would stick rigidly to good tactics and formation even though our players are not suited to it (due to being technically inept and unathletic), things would get worse before getting better when he's able to bring in his own players.
Still though, I'm sure nobody expected the squad to be so poor in quality that they would be completely unable to adapt, completely unable to perform to a reasonable standard, and that we would slip to such a terrible position.
The outcome will still be the same though once we have given Amorim the chance to build a squad of players with talent and character. You can't replace or fix an entire squad in one half season. We'll still have many poor players next season, but hopefully a few more decent ones and a better idea of where we're heading.
When Amorim signed, many Sporting fans warned us of this exact situation. Big name, disruptive players would be moved on, he would stick rigidly to good tactics and formation even though our players are not suited to it (due to being technically inept and unathletic), things would get worse before getting better when he's able to bring in his own players.
Still though, I'm sure nobody expected the squad to be so poor in quality that they would be completely unable to adapt, completely unable to perform to a reasonable standard, and that we would slip to such a terrible position.
The outcome will still be the same though once we have given Amorim the chance to build a squad of players with talent and character. You can't replace or fix an entire squad in one half season. We'll still have many poor players next season, but hopefully a few more decent ones and a better idea of where we're heading.
Yes it would be a shock. I just don't see this guy improving us.
He has all the tools required to be an excellent cup manager though. so don't be surprised if we win the EL this year and do well in CL next year.
I’d still disagree with that qualifier. The point of hiring a manager is for them to - well - manage. Managers/coaches seldom join optimal circumstances/scenarios and are usually/generally hired with/under the belief they can extract more from what's available to them.
The notion of a manager not being judged until they have/make their team seems to largely be a Manchester United thing. Perhaps my views are partially rooted in confirmation bias, but generally, everywhere else - managers are expected to earn "goodwill", whereas at United it is afforded to them from the get-go and for no reasons other than "we sacked managers before"/"if you hire a manager you gotta stick with them" - and backed with time and millions of pounds in investment until everyone goes "doh! he's shite"
For clarification - I'm not even made my mind up on Amorim yet. I find him really likeable, but similarly - I can see why and what the calls for him to be sacked are anchored in on. 6 prem wins in 6 months is insane. Ten Hag has a higher points per match ratio than him this season. it's been like 35 games with very little to believe or buy into. Calling people crazy or silly when there's an easily traceable rationale as to why they don't think he's up to it - is dismissive, if not insulting.
Amorim has not been good.
He has improved us though... the results may not show this but if you watch the games, there is an improvement.
We were inconsistent in our performances, easy to play against, we are much different now.
He has shown in the past he is a great league manager too.
Yeah definitely has to start well next season irrelevant of who the fixtures are against. Ideally we get a kind start but can't do anything about it
Controversial, but I think he already has improved us. No longer are we seeing those silly, unsustainable, basketball style/toss of a coin games where anything goes. Just by the very nature of his system, we're seeing more stability and control. Obviously, the attacking players are massively underperforming and that drags everything down and creates a certain narrative.
Crazy to say, but if we were to finish 17th, I wouldn't consider us a significantly worse side than Fulham, who are currently 8th. Improve the attack, maybe add another midfielder and potentially a goalkeeping upgrade and you're looking at a side who can be looking at the top 6.
The league table doesn't lie.
I agree with everything you're saying here.
When Amorim first took over we were genuinely complete shite for a few months. Up until the 2-2 against Everton, in fact, I thought we looked as bad as we ever have.
From March onwards, I think we have improved a lot not just on Amorim's first few months but even on the last season and a half under Ten Hag. The issue is, the attackers are underperforming and so is the goalkeeper, so we're losing out in those tight games which we deserve to take points from because our opponents have been far more clinical than us.
Bournemouth, Forest and Wolves are the clearest examples of that. I'd say we were clearly the better side in each of those games and yet we got one point in total out of them. Even against City at Old Trafford, I think we were quite considerably better and probably could've won with a more clinical attack.
Short reminder that we haven't won a game in 90 minutes the last 6 weeks
My point is that from 17th up towards around 8th, it's all much of a muchness. I don't think it would take an unbelievable jump for us to make 8th next season. The real leap would be to get into the top 4/5.
I guess that’s discussion over then.
Well he needs a proven goalscorer for that
Thank you for contradicting a statement I didn't make.
The point of my post was explicitly that we've been playing much better recently but not seeing the results of that because our attackers and goalkeeper are under-performing; your "short reminder" does nothing to dispute that. If you'd like to make an actual argument, I'm more than happy to engage in good faith.
I just don't see it and we are shipping goals for fun. How many times do we threaten the opposition GK ? you cannot put everything on players and say we are underperforming.
I think there were signs during Amorim’s first couple of months, but they were isolated examples and not backed up with any consistency. Liverpool away, Arsenal away in the cup and City away. I remember the City game in particular being dismissed by Gary Neville as being 'two poor sides' and the late goals may have allowed others to believe that it was a smash and grab performance. That wasn't true though. If you watch the second half back, there was only one team playing any football. City were giving the ball straight back to us and we were sustaining attacks. As I say though, these performances were isolated examples. Anyway, I digress.
Agree with what you're saying about those recent games you mention. We were the better side in all of them. Same against City. Even at home to Arsenal, we created the better chances. Though like you say, the narrative is formed due to an unreliable keeper and poor finishing.
Fully agreed. I think Cunha and Delap can take us to 8th. Cunha and Gyökeres and we can compete for top 5.
I mean if you fail to win a single game in 6 weeks, has it been much of an improvement? Performing better and being unlucky (like the Wolves game) can happen, but every single time over more than a month?
We aren't shipping goals for fun though, alot of them have come from individual player mistakes recently too.
We have been underperforming our xG quite alot recently... Garnacho, Hojlund missing the target is on the players.
I thought the whole point of having a footballing structure above the manager is that there's more continuity and the manager no longer has to handpick "his" own players.
Come on Ezkay, we can do better than that. I've just presumed so there's a tight set of conditions to my prediction, no need to extrapolate so wildly. If you're interested what I think - I'd say we have a good chance, but I would be a lot more confident if Amad back in by the second leg of Bilbao.
Furthermore if we did get in to Europe next year, I'd probably have us finishing lower than I would if we weren't in it. Our squad is at its thinnest, being that we're at the rip it up stage of the rebuild, and the demands of Europe are significant. Watch Forest struggle next year for exactly that reason.
I also think its wild to put so much stress on winning the Europa. Its a cup competition, anything can happen. Do we need to run back through all the teams that knocked out Fergie's United - hell Bilbao themselves. But more so because the Europa league has been where we've been best under Amorim. He took over when we were 21st and we finished 2nd (have I got that right?). Only undefeated team in Europe. A competition where the lack of physicality in our squad is less important, and thus the structure is less easily disrupted.
And then 5 years or so? Who is saying that? Lets take it easy with the Strawmans. He was bought in to rebuild the team in the image of his Sporting side. I think its perfectly reasonable to want to give him 1 year, (not 5), including at least 1 preseason and a summer transfer window, to sculpt the team into the way of playing he has found success with, and then improve on the 14th place he found them team in when he took over. If we're in 14th by his first Anniversary, then by all means get rid.
He hasnt been good but I'm still of opinion he shouldnt be sacked. You find calling calls for a sack is silly insulting, I dont.
You made a few good points, but I nevertheless see something building up within the team, despite the poor results.
I know points and wins are the only thing for a lot of fans but I feel context should also be considere. Ten Hags team coughed up something like 15 chances a game and seemed to have an insane notion that we’d be lucky not to concede actual goals whilst scoring more than them. Amorims team though don’t cough up chances, you can see a semblance of what he’s trying and fair to say that we would have a lot more wins under our belt now if we had someone that could score goals
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Exactly, we have consistency in our play now, yes I get we are not scoring goals but I think this will come.
We just have to see how we play, its the same style every game.
I used to go into games under Ten Hag, it was by how many will we lose, knowing how many chances we conceded.
1.Based on what we have seen, there are a lot of managers we could get that would improve the team. That is a very very low bar.
2. I think it will be cheaper in the long term to not buy players for an Amorim system this summer when the probability of him turning it around is so much lower than the probability of him being sacked next November.
Question back - if you knew for a fact that Amorim would be sacked at some point next season, what would you do this summer? That is how the club should be thinking because of how likely that appears to be.
Would you say a players like Quenda and Gyokores are specific to his system, or just good players? Because they were examples of key players in the last side with which he had great achievements with.
I really disagree with this narrative that we need to buy players that only suit a specific formation this summer. We just need better players than we already have.
That is absolute nonsense... how can you say its a fact he will be sacked next summer?
The whole point of a footballing structure is that it's collaborative. This is a pretty standard thing at most clubs anywhere in the world at any level.
They'll just refer to context as excuses.
"Bring in his own players" implies otherwise. Most clubs do not operate that way.
It's a hard one to judge accurately because the bolded applies surely to ETH?
This season with ETH before his sacking we created a lot more than we have subsequently with Amorim looking at xG, the xGA slightly better for Amorim but it's very dependent on that diabolical Spurs game where Bruno got sent off, otherwise it's no different really despite conceding far less shots. ETH seemed happy to let the opponent take many lower risk shots, Amorim I guess tries to stop any shots but the outcome seems very similar purely off the end result.
I would also ask the source for the '15 chances a game' stat, I don't know what qualifies as a chance in that aspect as it can't be big chances as per the PL stats.
Just getting a few quality players should be enough to assess whether the manager is up to the job.
He clearly knows, he will be under immense pressure next season if things do not improve.
He has got this season as a free hit and the pressure will mount up massively next season if we do not start well.
He has got this season as a free hit and the pressure will mount up massively next season if we do not start well.
Every club collaborates with their manager regarding transfers. "Bring in his own players" is an empty meaningless blanket statement used to argue in bad faith.
If I knew categorically that he'd be sacked next season then I'd sack him at the end of the season. I just don't share your belief that this is overwhelmingly likely to happen.
A few months ago I'd have felt slightly differently. Basically until the addition of Dorgu I really did think it was looking fairly ominous for him as I saw precious little on the pitch to be optimistic about. In the past few months, though, I think the football has been considerably better than it was not just in Amorim's first few months here but also better than it has been for essentially the past season and a bit under Ten Hag too.
I'm basically of the opinion that the results last season massively flattered us under Ten Hag, and they weren't even great to begin with. We'd be outplayed in the majority of matches and took more points than we deserved in no small part because the defence massively over-performed relative to the amount of shots we were conceding. (It's why I argued that up until recently Onana hasn't been as bad as people were making out)
I essentially think the past few months we're seeing a reversal of this. We're outplaying our opponents in a decent portion of games and not taking points because Onana has started underperforming and our attackers have underperformed massively too. I think with a more dependable keeper and some more canny forwards up top who can turn promising situations into chances and goals, we'd be winning a good chunk of these matches.
That'd be my answer to your question essentially. I'd sack Amorim at the end of the season if I could know categorically that he'd be fired next season anyway. I just contend that, if you add a few productive forward players and probably also a reliable keeper to this side, our league position is likely to be much, much stronger next season than it currently is.
How is it bad faith when there are still many fans who clearly expect the manager to get handpicked targets this summer?