It could be, but not until we see results of next year. If things aren’t on an upward trajectory by Christmas, Ratcliffe may begin questioning things a bit.
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach | Thread locked during matches
- Thread starter sewey89
- Start date
-
Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) discuss United's fantastic win away against Athletic Club in the semi-final of the Europa League.
They also pick out the positives of United's 4-3 loss away at Brentford, and Nik reviews a day out at Old Trafford watching Manchester United Women qualify for the Champions League.
It could be, but not until we see results of next year. If things aren’t on an upward trajectory by Christmas, Ratcliffe may begin questioning things a bit.
The only benefit is that the manager is comfortable with it otherwise the squad doesn't really fit but then our squad was poorly built for everything and in theory we could go in all directions.
He now has a very good idea of which players are technically and physically skilled enough to play his system, and which areas we need to improve upon. The players that will be kept next season have also had a good chunk of a season to learn the new system. Both are good things that we’ll benefit from next season.
Most reporting is conjecture and speculation.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...d-Ruben-Amorim-Omar-Berrada-Erik-ten-Hag.html
Ah sorry, misunderstood and makes sense. Yes that issue is that those CBs seem really rare - I almost wonder if they should sign a CM and convert them.
I guess maybe they’d be just the same in 343 if we played like palace and basically just fed the front three with direct balls, so it might not solely be 433 vs 343. But I only have last season and this season to compare.
Amorim said he never spoke to City about replacing Pep Guardiola
That doesn't contradict the idea that he'd likely be Viana's top target to eventually replace Pep
Which is very believable. But that doesn’t mean City wouldn’t have coveted him if Pep left, doubly so if his close friend and former DOF at Sporting was assuming the same role at City. That probably played into Berada’s calculus of insisting he join immediately, especially given that Berada himself just joined from City and would’ve been in the know of various potential Pep replacements in the pipeline if he chose not to extend.
Most top managers like Pep, Klopp etc are looking for certain formations when in possession in the final 3rd and when defending in your 3rd.
3-2-5 is generally considered the optimal formation when in possession attacking.
4-5-1 is generally considered the optimal formation when defending.
The whole idea is to create high xG shots in the center of the box and, conversely, prevent high xG shots by crowding defenders and limiting opportunities there.
The two 10s and a 9 offer more bodies in the center of the box to finish chances than a traditional 4-3-3. The wingbacks provide the width.
Pep and Klopp either had the weak side FB pinch in to form the 2 in a 3-2-5 or pushed an out-of-position CB forward into the 2 spot. Pep already had two 10s in his lineups (KDB, Silva).
If executed properly with the right personnel, the 3-4-2-1 system Amorim uses requires less gimmicky tactical quirks than the 4-3-3 to get into the 3-2-5 attacking formation. Transitions are handled more seamlessly. Also, I think he prefers defending in a 5-4-1. I personally don’t. But I can see why he does.
Most fans are paying attention to the formation on the broadcast, not the formation in attack and in defense which are a better at understanding the team’s tactics.
Our pressing is really bad and we can’t seem to defend crosses or cutbacks of which we concede a lot of. I don’t understand why
RA could get off to a bad start next season, losing 4 in a row like Ten Hag did. Where is the point at which the new season is also written off? 5th placed Chelsea have lost 8, drawn 9 league games, winning a mind-blowing 18. I think it would be fair to say if/when RA loses his 9th league game he gets the bullet, or 10th if we are feeling generous.
I am not in favor of writing off back to back seasons. I think we examine the record at 10 played and see how it compares to the list below.
Mourinho = 53.8% win rate
Ten Hag = 51.8% win rate
Ole = 51.4% win rate
LVG = 51.3% win rate
Moyes = 50.0% win rate
Moyes was boss for only 34 matches.
Amorim has been boss for 37 matches, with a win rate of 37.8%.
I would agree with that. I think the rebuild is going to be far more expensive than we are able to spend, even with sales and end of contracts.
Last season when we were flirting with players like Osimhen, his release clause was around €75m, which is £63.8m. Maybe we find two bangers for £75m each. That leaves £50m for the rest of the repairs. Even someone like Ugarte cost us £42.2m (£50.7 with add ons), and I think I'm the only person here who likes him. We need a goal machine, a goal keeper, two wingbacks, and a central midfielder.
Last edited:
You're not the only one on Ugarte. He's fantastic.
The CF position is easily the worst in living memory for every United fan alive I’d wager - and I totally acknowledge that that is a huge burden to RA. But there are members of this squad who have played much better and I don’t see many standouts who have improved under him.
Do t you think buying players for his rigid system is another huge Frankenstein approach, rather than adjusting what little money we might have into a back 4 system? I do feel that CL qualification will see us stuck with perhaps all 3 of our big players on loan as they aren’t going to walk away after a 25% pay rise, so if we do wi. The EL we have problem players on big wages and don’t fit the system. But they might do a 442/433 manager.
Yeah it wouldn’t be a bad shout, something how like Pep converted Mascherano into a CB. You can also see why he brought in players like Stones and other ball playing CBs.
It’s why people complaining about Amorim needing to bring in players for his system to work are missing the point - part of our failures in recruitment over the years have been not bringing in the right players to play modern, progressive, possession based football generally. The type of football that the likes of Pep and Klopp play(ed), before we even start on Amorim. It’s also silly to expect that every player can be taught to play this style - not every player is cut out for it. In the past we have seemingly given in to this inadequacy (and seemingly a lot of people here maintain this is what we should be doing, which is just crazy to me), rather than switch it around and force the players to step up. Those who do, will survive, those who can’t, will be gone.
Last edited:
Since Ruben came in, the only league win we have at Old Trafford is the 4-0 against Everton in his first home match. That's when we exclude the relegated sides I mean. Even with all the fair and reasonable mitigation, that is desperate.
His first pre-match press conference vs Ipswich, back in november
Why would him spelling out his plan change your perception of the tactics?
We've played February to mid April with 3 attackers for 3 positions. That's insane. No club could do much better playing twice a week under such circumstances.
If we fix that problem at least then we should see a natural improvement. If we aren't in Europe that will actually help us with our poorly assembled squad.
And just in case anybody was wondering, the 3 forwards we had were Garnacho, Hojlund and Zirkzee. Not Salah, Diaz and Jota.
Jesus whingers, apply some context
Last edited:
Even after sacking Ten Hag, I expected a “write‐off” season - but not to this extent. At what point do we draw the line between acceptable growing pains and outright failure? Consider these benchmarks:
- Title challenge: Writing off the season if we’re no longer fighting for the Premier League.
- Top 4 race: Writing off if we fall out of the Champions League places.
- European qualification: Writing off if we can’t secure any European football.
- Mid-table: Writing off if we finish outside the top 10 (or even top 12).
- Relegation dogfight: Writing off if we’re closer to the drop (16th+) than to safety.
Amorim, after 37 games, is on a 37.8% win rate, which for me is way below expectations.
We're Man Utd in transition, when a new manager arrives in October or November, the bare minimum should be a top 8 finish. At what point do we admit that his niche tactics simply won’t work at United?
Bet sporting fans thought the same. Then Amorim came and ended there 19 year wait for a title
When we sign some actual quality forwards and still lose majority of our games.
It is as you say a write off season in the league. However if we win a major trophy and qualify for the CL, then our league performances will be instantly mitigated because we will have positioned ourselves for success next year (acquiring a significant piece of silverware along the way). The long term objective should be to turn the negative inertia of the past 12 years around once and for all by actually committing to a manager and buying the necessary players to move up the league table next year.
With CL qualification, the benefit of new players (particularly a quality CF), and a summer of training, we should be in a very strong position next year.
Expecting 8th just because of the club's name and success of the past 35 years?
You can obviously see that midtable clubs got stronger. PL is really competitive.
Man Utd is in attack relaying on 20 2x 22 and 23 year old guys. Lack of experience is showing. Only 22 year old Amad is performing really well this season.
Yeah, the CF position is dire. I would say Garnacho is the one true winger and doesn’t fit as a 10. He’s better 1v1 in space on the wings. Almost all of his goal contributions have been from coming in wide.
It’s funny, but we’ve had fullbacks in the past who could definitely be fantastic wingbacks. Evra for sure, Valencia, yes, and they were very good FBs as well. Shaw has played a lot of wingback in the England set up. I guess people think that these players HAVE TO have played as a wingback before rather than looking for specific attributes that make wingbacks very effective. But let’s be honest, Maz and Dalot do not have those attributes (great pace, good ball progression, decent in 1v1, high work rates, good defenders) and I think that’s a big problem. But then again, neither Dalot nor Maz would be considered top fullbacks. Guys like Neville, Heinze, Darmian wouldn’t fit the system. Rafael and Fabio might’ve been decent wingback squad options.
I’m much less concerned about “specialists” and more concerned about getting athleticism and really good players that can play either FB or WB or 10 or a winger. A guy like Wirtz would completely transform the team and could play 10 in a 3-4-3 or 10 in a 4-2-3-1. We’ll never get him of course, but I think you get my meaning.
Which is exactly why Ashworth didn’t want Amorim as the squad wasn’t suited for Amorim’s 3-4-2-1 and we don’t have the money to buy the profile of player needed to 1. Improve the squad and 2. Fit Amorim’s system which he refuses to move from in any way at all.
Which is exactly what the old hierarchy were lambasted for after going for Maguire, Sanchez and Fred because apparently City were in for them yet Berrada seems to get a pass despite overruling Ashworth who was in charge of the footballing department and the fact that Berrada is a commercial/sponsorship guy.
It was yet another piss poor attempt to one up City and hope it’d work out because apparently City were interested even though Amorim himself has said he never at any point spoke to City, I often wonder if City leak stuff out knowing full well our geniuses will fall for the bait each time then piss themselves laughing that they got us again.
If the speculation is correct, it sounds like an attempt to gain the services of a highly rated young manager, and in the process prevent a major rival from doing the same. In this case it was City, in others it could be Arsenal or Liverpool. For example, if Arsenal sign Gyokeres they will (imo) win the league. We need a striker arguably just as much or more than Arsenal, so we should sign him - both to help us and to deny a rival from winning.
An attempt by a guy who’s in his first time as a CEO and specialises in commercial and sponsorship deals, a guy that has no right making footballing decisions over a guy who has experience in building footballing structures and who was brought in to run the footballing department ?
It wasn’t thought through at all and much like when we went after Maguire, Sanchez and Fred it was for the most part to simply one up City like we had done with RVP and Berbatov in the past. We stupidly let Woodward then Arnold run things when they had no right and here we are again doing exactly the same under a different hierarchy, I like Amorim but if he doesn’t win Europa he’ll be gone by Christmas and it’ll have been yet another wasted year due to zero vision by the club.
From what I've seen in SJR's recent interview, decision making is more of a team effort. So even if Berada thought Amorim was the guy, it would've obviously still had to go through everyone else at the top.
That is such a low bar to clear that it might not provide much imformation.
Crystal Palace might win the Portugese title. Brighton would absolutely do it. The PL is much stronger than the Portugese league. It is almost a different sport. I think that is slowly dawning on Berrada and Amorim. Dorgu and Dalot as WBs will not win PL titles.
This phenomenon didn't seem to be an issue when Mourinho was winning the UEFA Cup and Champions League, AvB was winning the Europa League and Portuguese league was over the years sending us the likes of Ronaldo, Nani, and Bruno.
This is why you don't look at leagues but rather the specific individual qualities of the players within them.
Did his sporting side have significantly more resources/a better squad than the opposition? Genuine question as I don’t know.
The keeper chat has been moved to the keeper thread in the transfer forum.
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/lets-talk-keepers-who-do-we-buy-and-why.486901/
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/lets-talk-keepers-who-do-we-buy-and-why.486901/
Amorim's first game was Ipswich, 1-1 on 24-11-2024, right?
Looking at a couple of websites it seems United were 12th, seven points off 4th on 23-11-2024.
So am I missing something why 14th and four points off 4th keeps being mentioned?
If he continues this horrendous form into next season and gets sacked in October, do we write next season off as well, since the new manager wouldn’t have had a summer transfer window? No, we should we expect that whoever comes in is able to improve us, at least somewhat!
If Amorim was happy to play chaos ball and throw tactics out the window from the first minute, we probably would finish higher. But he's not, and rightfully so.
We were lucky to finish 8th last season, it's not often the table lies but it did, it showed how crap teams were that we managed to joke our way to that position.
Ten Hag's kamikaze football was also more exciting to watch than this version of United, where we aimlessly pass it around a back 3 and then lose possession in a midfield 2 that's outnumbered by the opposition.
If we qualify for the CL and load up on good players then what you’re describing will never happen.
Amorim has laid the ground work for next season our weaknesses has been highlighted for everyone to see. He never compromised once this season and we’ve seen the players that either sank or swam. We are progressing the ball way better than under Ten Hag and the idé is clear of how he wants us to play now it’s a matter of personal and raising the level of technical ability and work rate in the squad. I stand behind Amorim fully and I know it will pay off in the long run.