Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach

I don't know exactly what you mean by not seeing "any risks being taken", and you seem to be suggesting a correlation between taking risk and seeing results? Sorry if I interpreted your statement wrongly.

Personally I think it's risky to force a switch to 3-4-3 in the middle of the season without having the players to play in the system. It's like performing a heart surgery while running a marathon. Ruud playing 4-2-3-1 is not risky, because he is reverting to something that our players know best and makes full use of the natural abilities of our players and leverages our greatest threat, which is our wing-play. Even ETH's system of leaving gaping holes in the middle is precisely because he wants to fully utilise our wide players. Garnacho and Amad on either side of the wings present a potent threat and the game is much easier for Nacho direct style of play if he only focuses on the byline. In contrast, he has been fully exposed when trying to play in a more central role.

In terms of "failing to score" - again I don't know if you have been watching matches, but you can see exactly where Amorim's system is breaking down. Most of our best attacking play goes through Bruno. Otherwise we lack a player to break the lines or progress the ball meaningfully to attacking areas, and Nacho has been very poor in his decision making or even dribbling. On the attacking side, much as been said about Højlund and I don't need to add to that.

Is it a surprise that we look much better whenever Amad is playing? Because we have an additional outlet for attack transitions whenever he's playing, in addition to Bruno.
Risky or stupid.

He has himself admitted multiple times that's he is not going to change and that's how he wants to play. I admire that and no issues with that; however, then you have walk the talk and be able to show at least a few glimpses of implementing the said system. Otherwise, you need to bite the bullet and adapt to what is available.
 
Why would him spelling out his plan change your perception of the tactics?

Because I think he’s been extremely negative in the way he lines up his wing backs. I was expecting him to use dangerous players, wingers out in both positions.
If he has explained that he needs to start with defensive players, only to then use attacking ones, well obviously that changes my perception.

Right now I think he’ll too often use full backs as his wing backs, and only occasionally stick someone like Amad out on one wing.
 
It's argued a lot on here that there are no specialist 343 player, that a good striker or keeper will be good in any system, a good winger or fullback can easily transition to a wingback.

I don't necessarily disagree, but surely wouldn't an ideal signing have experience playing in 3 at the back type system? I mean even the keeper one would think there is nuance playing it out the back with three center backs vs two, no? I just don't think you can dismiss the risk of playing this niche system and you can't tell me there is none, even good players I think will take some time to adjust to the pace and intensity of a real game in a new formation like this.

Can it be done and be successfully? Absolutely, but I'm worried there isn't a lot of room for error here. The team needs to hit the ground running because the pundits in the media are sharpening their knives as we speak.
 
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We were never going to have a good league season given the circumstances. Not with Ten Hag, nor with his replacement. The squad simply wasn't set up for success given the lack of a competent centre forward. And yet here we are in a situation that could potentially result in a more successful season than Arsenal (unless they pull of an improbable result on Wed).
I absolutely did not expect top 4. I was hoping for it but once I saw how the season was going, I shifted my expectations to be 7th/8th when Amorim came in after RVN steadied the ship.
 
I absolutely did not expect top 4. I was hoping for it but once I saw how the season was going, I shifted my expectations to be 7th/8th when Amorim came in after RVN steadied the ship.

7th or 8th would've been fine, although if we didn't win the EL this year, then none of it would've mattered. Everything is about setting the club up for success next season, which despite the calamitous league year, is still completely within reach if we go through and win the final.
 
Personally I think Ugarte is quality. Not sure there are many better midfields out there than Newcastles including Liverpool and Arsenal.
People love to stick the this presumption that Ugarte is bad on the ball. He's actually more than decent and at times was the only player brave enough to make progressive passes. Arguably our second most important player in midfield after Bruno
 
Because I think he’s been extremely negative in the way he lines up his wing backs. I was expecting him to use dangerous players, wingers out in both positions.
If he has explained that he needs to start with defensive players, only to then use attacking ones, well obviously that changes my perception.

Right now I think he’ll too often use full backs as his wing backs, and only occasionally stick someone like Amad out on one wing.
It was definitely said at the start of his tenure.

Also if you look back at Sporting there is a gradual move towards more attacking players at wing back as the team grew and got more comfortable.

The only thing making me think he might not get to that point (2 wingers at WB) is the physicality of the PL making it tough to deal with. Brentfords last goal comes from the type of overloads you're likely to struggle with having Amad at WB for example.
 
Crystal Palace might win the Portugese title. Brighton would absolutely do it. The PL is much stronger than the Portugese league. It is almost a different sport. I think that is slowly dawning on Berrada and Amorim. Dorgu and Dalot as WBs will not win PL titles.
Dalot probably won’t be a wing back next season. Amorims not had a proper window yet to put his mark on the team. Don’t get why we have such impatient fans.
 
Dalot probably won’t be a wing back next season. Amorims not had a proper window yet to put his mark on the team. Don’t get why we have such impatient fans.
Might as well sell him then. I just hope his replacement is better than Dorgu.

This formation will be the death of us I swear.
 
RA could get off to a bad start next season, losing 4 in a row like Ten Hag did. Where is the point at which the new season is also written off? 5th placed Chelsea have lost 8, drawn 9 league games, winning a mind-blowing 18. I think it would be fair to say if/when RA loses his 9th league game he gets the bullet, or 10th if we are feeling generous.

I am not in favor of writing off back to back seasons. I think we examine the record at 10 played and see how it compares to the list below.

Mourinho = 53.8% win rate
Ten Hag = 51.8% win rate
Ole = 51.4% win rate
LVG = 51.3% win rate
Moyes = 50.0% win rate

Moyes was boss for only 34 matches.
Amorim has been boss for 37 matches, with a win rate of 37.8%.

Moyes also took over a squad that had just walked the league.
 
Did his sporting side have significantly more resources/a better squad than the opposition? Genuine question as I don’t know.
Guess Sporting had less resources than Porto and Benfica, and then a huge gap to the rest. Amorim also seems to have built and rebuilt teams during his spell which is a huge plus. However, he has not been able to make the transition to the PL. Not yet, and maybe not ever. EL is easier because it resembles Portugal. Key ahead is to sign a no 9 and 10 who can bring at least 25 PL goals. That should get us top 8 at least.
 
Dalot probably won’t be a wing back next season. Amorims not had a proper window yet to put his mark on the team. Don’t get why we have such impatient fans.
He will since Amad can't defend, see Sunday, and we can't afford a RWB for 45m on top of everything else we need. Dorgu and Dalot will highlight what is wrong with Amorim's system.
 
Ten Hag's kamikaze football was also more exciting to watch than this version of United, where we aimlessly pass it around a back 3 and then lose possession in a midfield 2 that's outnumbered by the opposition.
It's a difficult debate to have because it's ultimately different shades of shit. Without looking into any of the stats, we probably created more under Ten Hag but we're a bit more secure with the ball under Amorim and probably not quite as open when teams counter against us.

The fact that there's any debate to be had at all shows how bad we've been under Amorim though.
 
For the opposition fans? Sure.
For both sets of fans. Sure, we'd concede a lot of chances but we'd also score more goals and the football would get us up off our seats more often. I miss watching us have fast breaks and counter attacks.

As another poster said, it's ultimately like debating different shades of shit, as Ten Hag's football was never going to make us a remotely successful club.
 
There is a lot of debate on 343 but I believe we are currently playing 523 most of the times, our wing backs are staying more closer to back 3 than the front 3, means as long as one of the CD joins the midfield this system becomes 433 anyway.

so the problem here is the players we have are unable to take ball forward, same time unable to defend properly as a team.

What ever the system we played in the past, these things were exposed all the time hence we were losing many matches and when TenHag played 4141 it got only worse.
 
We are twice as low in the table as Ten Hag finished with an injury stricken limping squad. That finish was labeled a catastrophe.

Amorim is doubling down on getting his system to work while opposition managers set out to win the game. What was Amorim‘s plan to deal with Brentford‘s overloads at set pieces and crosses?

Ten Hag at least set us up to give us a higher chance of winning a game based on tactics. I don‘t see this from Amorim currently.

I can‘t imagine Thomas Frank not doing way better with this squad than Amorim.
 
His record is abysmal and winning the Europa doesn't hide it.

Genuinely worried for next season as we can't change 7 or 8 players in the off season
 
Ten Hag's kamikaze football was also more exciting to watch than this version of United, where we aimlessly pass it around a back 3 and then lose possession in a midfield 2 that's outnumbered by the opposition.
It wasnt, watching ETH's kamikaze football, cost me about 4 TV's, now that's not saying I enjoy watching our 3 cb's scared to pass the ball forward every game, but feel alot of goals we concede are from individual errors, rather than a wide open midfield
 
The season was never going anywhere so the decision to start with 3421 makes sense since hopefully he has made some headway with the players. It would be very painful to suddenly switch to it next season. It removes a lot of excuses for next season as well, which is good for us as a club that have had to deal with a decade of excuses that turned out to be exactly that.

With a couple of additions and a pre season as well as approaching one year of coaching this team, we should really be top 8 at Christmas next season. If we aren't top eight I'm not sure how anyone could argue he is one of the top ten coaches in the world, which is what we should be building around
 
The season was never going anywhere so the decision to start with 3421 makes sense since hopefully he has made some headway with the players. It would be very painful to suddenly switch to it next season. It removes a lot of excuses for next season as well, which is good for us as a club that have had to deal with a decade of excuses that turned out to be exactly that.

With a couple of additions and a pre season as well as approaching one year of coaching this team, we should really be top 8 at Christmas next season. If we aren't top eight I'm not sure how anyone could argue he is one of the top ten coaches in the world, which is what we should be building around
We have seen all this before under ETH, a full preseason, his players, international break, no more injuries etc. its all guesswork and hope. The indications so far are v poor. The CEO hired a manager with one style of play that is not suited to our squad. Even Rangnick commented on this at the weekend. It was a high risk decision and so far not worked. Maybe you are right and we will see things improve, I reckon its at best 50:50 and thats with an optimistic slant.
 
We are twice as low in the table as Ten Hag finished with an injury stricken limping squad. That finish was labeled a catastrophe.

Amorim is doubling down on getting his system to work while opposition managers set out to win the game. What was Amorim‘s plan to deal with Brentford‘s overloads at set pieces and crosses?

Ten Hag at least set us up to give us a higher chance of winning a game based on tactics. I don‘t see this from Amorim currently.

I can‘t imagine Thomas Frank not doing way better with this squad than Amorim.
It was a catastrophe and so were Ten Hag's tactics.

Amorim has done a pretty poor job so far but I don't think anyone can seriously place too much stock into the Brentford game on the weekend. Our domestic season is already over and it's clear that our Europa campaign will take precedence over what happens in the remaining league games, that much should be obvious from the team selections which are all about prioritising player recovery.

Ten Hag was naive and set us up to play in a way that wasn't sustainable whatsoever, which had us conceding about 20 shots a game. Amorim has gone too far the other way with being too safe but I at least don't see this being his end game - even if I don't think that will end up being successful either. Ten Hag had 3 years in the job and the final product of his vision was absolutely horrific to watch. Even if Amorim ultimately ends up a failure here, that doesn't vindicate Ten Hag.
 
It wasnt, watching ETH's kamikaze football, cost me about 4 TV's, now that's not saying I enjoy watching our 3 cb's scared to pass the ball forward every game, but feel alot of goals we concede are from individual errors, rather than a wide open midfield
Each to their own I guess. I preferred Ole-ball to Van Gaal's drab 1-0 wins, as I enjoy seeing us create bags of chances. Whereas others seem to prefer plenty of possession without purpose, as it gives the illusion of a controlled performance.
 
Did we create bags of chances under Ole? I don’t remember. Not a fan of football where the objective is just to sit really deep and counter in general, though.
 
I have the unfortunate pleasure of watching Amorim's 3-4-3 at the same time as watching Olof Mellburg's 3-4-3 with STL City SC here at home. STL has a much different profile in its striker with Joao Klauss being a hold up specialist. His legs are totally gone and can't score to save his life. The team is made up of 2. Bundesliga rejects for the most part. All that's to say the formation doesn't work in MLS either.

I would really like to see what a competent number 9 could do, one that can grab the game by the neck and make things happen, but it's going to depend so much on getting more chance creation in general.
 
Bruno/Ugarte is a decently balanced CM but their workload is pretty extreme in this setup. Put more expansive passers behind them in the CBs and two much more dangerous/mobile 10s (Cunha/Amad) even without changing striker and immediately the team is much better offensively.

The question really is why we are pursuing 343 in my opinion still, it seems plainly obvious every PL team knows it inside out and knows how to exploit it so do you just keep buying better and better players to raise the overall level or do we become a bit more tactically flexible?

I’m not following your logic there at all. Opposition teams are too familiar with 343? So we should instead do something they don’t know inside out and play 433 or 4231?

The exact opposite is true, surely? Opposition teams are much more used to playing against a back four. God knows our fans definitely are. Hence there’s a load of them whose minds are blown because our manager dares to line up with a different formation.
We are twice as low in the table as Ten Hag finished with an injury stricken limping squad. That finish was labeled a catastrophe.

Amorim is doubling down on getting his system to work while opposition managers set out to win the game. What was Amorim‘s plan to deal with Brentford‘s overloads at set pieces and crosses?

Ten Hag at least set us up to give us a higher chance of winning a game based on tactics. I don‘t see this from Amorim currently.

I can‘t imagine Thomas Frank not doing way better with this squad than Amorim.

That definitely didn’t happen. The opposite, if anything.
 
Each to their own I guess. I preferred Ole-ball to Van Gaal's drab 1-0 wins, as I enjoy seeing us create bags of chances. Whereas others seem to prefer plenty of possession without purpose, as it gives the illusion of a controlled performance.

This feels like pretty lazy analysis. Amorim’s Sporting team scored 90+ goals in the 23/24 season. We’ve scored 12 in our last 5 games. His system isn’t designed for drab 1-0s like we played under LVG, but it takes time to get there.

And yeah, a team like United should be controlling games, not relying on counters like the Forests of the world. But we need more technically minded players to get there, on top of the current training.
 
Each to their own I guess. I preferred Ole-ball to Van Gaal's drab 1-0 wins, as I enjoy seeing us create bags of chances. Whereas others seem to prefer plenty of possession without purpose, as it gives the illusion of a controlled performance.
Didnt like watching LVG myself, somehow we've got to find balance between both, Ole's was prob the best to watch (quick counters) but was never going to succeed long term
 
This feels like pretty lazy analysis. Amorim’s Sporting team scored 90+ goals in the 23/24 season. We’ve scored 12 in our last 5 games. His system isn’t designed for drab 1-0s like we played under LVG, but it takes time to get there.

And yeah, a team like United should be controlling games, not relying on counters like the Forests of the world. But we need more technically minded players to get there, on top of the current training.
We've seen little evidence so far that Amorim's system will translate into scoring loads of goals in the Premier League. Someone else in this thread has already made the point that Brighton or Palace could probably win Liga Portugal.

I do think one of the main reasons we look stronger in the Europa League is because the opposition we've faced aren't as talented or athletic as most Premier League teams.
 
We've seen little evidence so far that Amorim's system will translate into scoring loads of goals in the Premier League. Someone else in this thread has already made the point that Brighton or Palace could probably win Liga Portugal.

I do think one of the main reasons we look stronger in the Europa League is because the opposition we've faced aren't as talented or athletic as most Premier League teams.

No they can't... they would probably finish outside the CL places, let alone win the league.

Brighton and Palace can barely win the Europa conference league which is lower quality than the sporting league.

Whilst fans keep saying "a manager from x league is poor", Arne Slot has just debunked that theory....
 
Whilst fans keep saying "a manager from x league is poor", Arne Slot has just debunked that theory....
By keeping the same system that the players were familiar with, most of whom had also previously won trophies at Liverpool in that system. Amorim has changed the system to a back 5 which has so far shown no redeeming features and isn't playing to most player's strengths.
 
By keeping the same system that the players were familiar with, most of whom had also previously won trophies at Liverpool in that system. Amorim has changed the system to a back 5 which has so far shown no redeeming features and isn't playing to most player's strengths.

Well, yeah. They already play a modern, progressive style of football. We have not been with our last few managers now.

It’s not playing to some of our player’s strengths because they lack the required technical and physical qualities. The smart thing to do is get rid of those players and bring in players who are sufficiently skilled and physical, rather than dumb things down to the lowest common denominator. It’s insane to me people are actually advocating for the latter.
 
By keeping the same system that the players were familiar with, most of whom had also previously won trophies at Liverpool in that system. Amorim has changed the system to a back 5 which has so far shown no redeeming features and isn't playing to most player's strengths.

Okay lets take a look at how many of those Liverpool players had won the PL or CL.

Players in the Liverpool squad that won the PL.
Allison, Trent, VVD, Robertson, Gomez, Harvey, Jones, Salah.

Players who have not won the PL/CL
Konate, Quansah, Bradley, Gravernberch, MacAllister, Szoboszlai, Diaz, Gapko, Nunez, Jota, Endo.

So as you can see more than half the team had not won the PL/CL at Liverpool, if you are saying other trophies such as FA/LC, then the Manutd squad have won that too.

Why do you keep moving the goal post... first its oh a manager from lower league cant... debunked so now, its the formation.

Now its about players strengths... we played 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3, 4-2-4, did that bring out the strengths of our players?
 
Well, yeah. They already play a modern, progressive style of football. We have not been with our last few managers now.

It’s not playing to some of our player’s strengths because they lack the required technical and physical qualities. The smart thing to do is get rid of those players and bring in players who are sufficiently skilled and physical, rather than dumb things down to the lowest common denominator. It’s insane to me people are actually advocating for the latter.

This.

You can have any formation, 3,4,5 at the back but if your players cannot receive a football under pressure and pass to a team mate... it does not matter about formations.

People need to get this out their head that its the formation that is letting us down, our technical floor at this club is way too low.

Look at the weekend, we cannot progress the ball to the opposition 1st third because we dont know how to use the ball.
 
I stick to my belief that he won't at OT this time next year, one way or the other
 
Okay lets take a look at how many of those Liverpool players had won the PL or CL.

Players in the Liverpool squad that won the PL.
Allison, Trent, VVD, Robertson, Gomez, Harvey, Jones, Salah.

Players who have not won the PL/CL
Konate, Quansah, Bradley, Gravernberch, MacAllister, Szoboszlai, Diaz, Gapko, Nunez, Jota, Endo.

So as you can see more than half the team had not won the PL/CL at Liverpool, if you are saying other trophies such as FA/LC, then the Manutd squad have won that too.

Why do you keep moving the goal post... first its oh a manager from lower league cant... debunked so now, its the formation.

Now its about players strengths... we played 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3, 4-2-4, did that bring out the strengths of our players?
eight is quite a large number of Pl winners and gives you an excellent base, in my opinion (I have come into this discussion late so may have missed something)