How has this athletic divide opened up with the PL vs rest of Europe?

Fortitude

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Not a conversation about the quality of the respective leagues - leave that for other threads.


PL teams look so much more athletic and powerful than European counterparts to a degree I've not seen before.

Chelsea essentially ran Betis to a stupor and then took the game against their exhausted husks. It's not the first time athletic prowess has played a factor in how games between PL sides and European opponents have panned out - ourselves, so long as we didn't face another PL team, our players could get a foothold in games and strong arm opponents.

Have we got the best medical staff since Spain destroyed blood bags in 2013, or has there been some kind of genuine breakthrough in sports science...? How has this happened?
 
Really good thread (looking at physicality in leagues) but I'm not totally sure is.

I think there is a gap between Spanish teams who are quite a bit below the Premier League.

We did not look physically superior to Lyon and neither Arsenal or Liverpool looked physically superior to PSG. Inter also often looked stronger than a much younger Barcelona side.
 
The real question is how this athletic divide opened up between the PL and Manchester United.
 
Just styles of play.

I actually think Klopps Liverpool side deserve a bit of praise here. No one could compete with Pep playing his style, so teams improved their athleticism to compete.
 
I don’t think Betis are the best example considering they are coached by Pellegrinni. Man City and West Ham were pretty poor athletically under him. His sides have been pretty much the same for the last two decades, going back to Villarreal where they were good on the ball, but not great off it.

It will be more interesting to see how Forest fare in the conference league, I don’t think the gap will be as big with them against the Italian and Spanish clubs as there was with Chelsea.
 
OverratedOpinion said:
Really good thread (looking at physicality in leagues) but I'm not totally sure is.

I think there is a gap between Spanish teams who are quite a bit below the Premier League.

We did not look physically superior to Lyon and neither Arsenal or Liverpool looked physically superior to PSG. Inter also often looked stronger than a much younger Barcelona side.
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I thought PSG were very shrewd in their tactical planning and therefore avoided matching braun with braun for the most part.

Lyon - true

Liverpool were flat by PSG.

Hmm might be more a Spanish thing. :confused:
 
The gap between the Premier League and other leagues is becoming ridiculous. Betis is 6th in La Liga and Chelsea is 4th in EPL and they basically demolished them. The worst team in Man Utd history easily defeated Bilbao (4th in La Liga) and Sociedad (11th in La Liga). Spurs also defeated a 4th team in Bundesliga.

La Liga is the second best league in the world but the quality of their teams bar the top 3 is shocking.
 
It is interesting because we have been second best physically for a lot of the season domestically but have been far more competitive in European games. It's the same reason Antony looked like his old self tonight but has seemingly lit up Spain. It's easier physically and it means certain players are more likely to do well
 
Spanish sides look slower these days for sure. Italian teams seem to be like workhorses and it's proved to be successful of late with how many of the clubs have reached finals. Atalanta ran a lot of teams off the pitch last year, including Liverpool and Leverkusen.

Ligue 1 sides are still physical, it's why players from their seem to adapt the best even if it's a lesser league than Italy or Spain.
 
Bwuk said:
Just styles of play.

I actually think Klopps Liverpool side deserve a bit of praise here. No one could compete with Pep playing his style, so teams improved their athleticism to compete.
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But how? It looks abnormal. It feels really stark when watching what are meant to be competitive games between clubs who supposedly have access to the same sports science and training apparatus.
Bojan11 said:
I don’t think Betis are the best example considering they are coached by Pellegrinni. Man City and West Ham were pretty poor athletically under him. His sides have been pretty much the same for the last two decades, going back to Villarreal where they were good on the ball, but not great off it.

It will be more interesting to see how Forest fare in the conference league, I don’t think the gap will be as big with them against the Italian and Spanish clubs as there was with Chelsea.
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@OverratedOpinion might have it right by saying Spain. It's not just Betis, but that has been the culmination of a few odd looking games. Bilbao, Sociedad, Real all got ran off the pitch, too.
pacifictheme said:
It is interesting because we have been second best physically for a lot of the season domestically but have been far more competitive in European games. It's the same reason Antony looked like his old self tonight but has seemingly lit up Spain. It's easier physically and it means certain players are more likely to do well
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Yeah, Antony looked like what he does in the PL, but we know that's not right because he's had a good season up until meeting an English team, then he's exasperated and ran off the pitch looking every bit the player he did in the league.
 
KingEric04 said:
The gap between the Premier League and other leagues is becoming ridiculous. Betis is 6th in La Liga and Chelsea is 4th in EPL and they basically demolished them. The worst team in Man Utd history easily defeated Bilbao (4th in La Liga) and Sociedad (11th in La Liga). Spurs also defeated a 4th team in Bundesliga.

La Liga is the second best league in the world but the quality of their teams bar the top 3 is shocking.
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It’s becoming ridiculous until it swings back the other way. Swings and roundabouts.
 
Fortitude said:
But how? It looks abnormal. It feels really stark when watching what are meant to be competitive games between clubs who supposedly have access to the same sports science and training apparatus.

@OverratedOpinion might have it right by saying Spain. It's not just Betis, but that has been the culmination of a few odd looking games. Bilbao, Sociedad, Real all got ran off the pitch, too.

Yeah, Antony looked like what he does in the PL, but we know that's not right because he's had a good season up until meeting an English team, then he's exasperated and ran off the pitch looking every bit the player he did in the league.
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Madrid did destroy City, but I think they looked off it against Arsenal because they didn’t have a settled defence and they looked like they ran out of ideas tactically rather than physically.

I think people are being harsh on Bilbao. We scored against the run of play and then the sending off happened. They were pretty much on top before that and Williams should have buried that header at 0-0. At Old Trafford, they were the better team for a large portion of the game and there were a few squeaky bum moments before Mount scored.
 
KiD MoYeS said:
PSG literally knocked out the Premier League from the Champions League.
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Tbf they looked brilliant. It was the first time in a while the best team in the PL were run ragged by a European team. Getting to penalties really flattered Liverpool.
 
Bojan11 said:
Madrid did destroy City, but I think they looked off it against Arsenal because they didn’t have a settled defence and they looked like they ran out of ideas tactically rather than physically.

I think people are being harsh on Bilbao. We scored against the run of play and then the sending off happened. They were pretty much on top before that and Williams should have buried that header at 0-0. At Old Trafford, they were the better team for a large portion of the game and there were a few squeaky bum moments before Mount scored.
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Yeah agree at the Bilbao games. The overall score in no way reflected the games. Sociedad was the only game I felt we were physically better.

Spanish teams just value technique more over power and pace. Prem teams have gone the other way. Too far the other way in my opinion.

I could be wrong here but it feels like Prem teams have more players of African descent in their XI's than the Spanish and Italian teams. Broadly speaking(obviously don't want to stereotype) I think that brings you more pace and power.
 
How is physicality being measured?

Number of sprints?
Top speed reached?
Muscles?

Gauging this strictly off the merits of 1 game or by the eye test is nonsense.
 
premier league clubs have more money, therefore more staff and better sports science.
 
I think there has been a push in england towards athletic players and playstyles like how spain has been pushing tiki taka for a while now. Both models create robotic players.

It's really bad for the sport because it will mean that we'll get even fewer lazy magicians like Ronaldinho and Riquelme that often make the beautiful/wrong play instead of the winning/correct play. If Ronaldinho played today he wouldn't get the same space to create because of athletic defenders, and that would make it harder for him, and that would increase the other teams chances to win, and that would make football as a sport worse. The players coming out today are better for winning, but they are not better for the game.
 
A mixture of Klopp and Guardiola inspiring a lot of teams to press high. Then the financial disparity and changes to substitutes mean you can have 5 pretty good athletic workhorses come off the bench so slowing down and getting tired is much less a factor in individual matches. The challenge is more in maintaining it over a season.
If your Brentford and go out of the cups fairly early so only play once a week it should be much less of a challenge though. Then the liverpool and cities of the league have to bring in players with the physicality to handle it which in turn pushes the league further towards the athlete.
 
FriedClams said:
premier league clubs have more money, therefore more staff and better sports science.
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We don’t have better sports science. Plenty of players who left the PL to go elsewhere have said so

Inter were able to get Lukaku fit really easily. We had him looking like a body builder then he went to Chelsea and again was not fit again
 
I think maybe its because we have massively raised the floor of the PL.

To stay in the league, if you can't get the best technical talent then you at least want the best athletes - loads of mid-table clubs started trending towards this around 8 years ago. And, as they got better, the teams at the top realised they needed to become winning machines to perform consistently well against every team in the league, so became more physical while maintaining high technical ability - Haaland, Arsenal's defensive pairings etc.. look at Brentford, Newcastle and more recently Notts Forest, they're big strong lads throughout - it's a tough league for sure.

Meanwhile our regen Spice Boys could only prance around Europe's lower tier - unfortunately ego and heart don't go hand in hand
 
Offside said:
It’s becoming ridiculous until it swings back the other way. Swings and roundabouts.
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La Liga has been declining for a while. Aside from Barcelona and Madrid and maybe Atletico the teams have been rather poor and shocking. Bundesliga isn't looking stronger as well now that Alonso left Leverkusen. The French League is always the same and Serie A looks slightly better than 5 years ago but nowhere near the peak that they had in 1990s and 2000s. The traditionally "big" teams in top 5 leagues will remain strong, but the gap between other 15 teams in EPL and other leagues will become bigger and bigger. Teams like Aston Villa, Newcastle, Nottingham Forrest, Brighton and Bournemouth are all improving and we can see that the clubs like Bilbao and Betis aren't really good.

United wants to get top 5 the next year but it's going to be extremely hard when these "non big" clubs are becoming better and better. Liverpool, Arsenal and City will reach the first three positions in the EPL but the battle for the 4th and 5th place is going to be even better than this season. Chelsea, Newcastle, Aston Villa, Forrest are all going to fight for the UCL spot. Our Man Utd team was very bad but I don't think that our team is 15 on the paper, but that tells you about the strength of the EPL and that it's improving by each passing year.
 
Chelsea's budget this year was reportedly 610M€. Betis' was 185M€.
 
It's not the reason for the results (money is).

When EPL was worse than La Liga, it was also more athletic/taller/stronger. It's always been the style of the league.
That's why more Scandiavians and Africans play in EPL, while La Liga prioritizes technique. If La Liga and EPL reversed their budget, you'd probably would see a bunch of athletic donkeys running around after the ball while Spanish teams dominate with posession.
 
Probably but the benefits are marginal I imagine and overcome by superiority in other factors.

The famous plattini quote comes to mind.
 
antk said:
Chelsea's budget this year was reportedly 610M€. Betis' was 185M€.
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It's not just about money or the budget of these clubs. Chelsea is one of the youngest teams out there and their oldest player was 26 I think. La Liga is the second best league in the world and Chelsea is 4th in the league and Betis is 6th in the league. So you would expect this match to be at least somewhat competitive. For example, Aston Villa is 6th in the EPL and they reached the quarter final of the UCL and almost defeated PSG who is probably the best team in Europe at the moment.
 
KingEric04 said:
It's not just about money or the budget of these clubs. Chelsea is one of the youngest teams out there and their oldest player was 26 I think. La Liga is the second best league in the world and Chelsea is 4th in the league and Betis is 6th in the league. So you would expect this match to be at least somewhat competitive. For example, Aston Villa is 6th in the EPL and they reached the quarter final of the UCL and almost defeated PSG who is probably the best team in Europe at the moment.
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This did not happen.
 
I have seen nothing in all three European competitions that would indicate that there is indeed any general trend of EPL teams physically outperforming their continental competition. This feels more like one of those kneejerk threads which overvalues a recent impression caused by one or two games and immediatly runs to concluding a general trend from that sample size.
 
G3079 said:
I have seen nothing in all three European competitions that would indicate that there is indeed any general trend of EPL teams physically outperforming their continental competition. This feels more like one of those kneejerk threads which overvalues a recent impression caused by one or two games and immediatly runs to concluding a general trend from that sample size.
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Athleticism is anyway generally becoming a dominant feature in football. I don't suppose anyone is looking at the Eredivisie as a bastion of athleticism, but there, too, some coaches and players have started complaining that football right now is all about running, running, running, and much less about skill and vision.

So as with anything, I suppose the main issue here is that EPL teams on average have more money than anyone else, and are therefore also on average more able than anyone else to buy today's super athletic players. And with anything like it, you don't see the difference so much between elite clubs (of which Chelsea is part), but it becomes more visible when you drop down a level (where Betis is).
 
it was Pellegrini himself recently who went nuts because of the type of football being played in La Liga. imagine being the manager in the league and openly saying it's the slowest league in Europe with least amount of actual football.

basically, it's a shyte league to watch with skint clubs and couple of obvious outliers like Barca and Madrid who can simply buy anyone they want to counter that.

but the rest... yikez. whenever I watch those La Liga or Seria A clubs outside of top 6 against EPL clubs, it seems they can run for about 50-55 minutes max. they just lie around and dive most of the time, and wait for the game to finish I suppose.

R. Sociedad scored 35 goals this season :lol:
 
adexkola said:
How is physicality being measured?

Number of sprints?
Top speed reached?
Muscles?

Gauging this strictly off the merits of 1 game or by the eye test is nonsense.
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How about average distance sprinted per game? By that metric we get 6 out of the top 7 in Europe being Premier League sides, 12 of the top 20.
 
G3079 said:
I have seen nothing in all three European competitions that would indicate that there is indeed any general trend of EPL teams physically outperforming their continental competition. This feels more like one of those kneejerk threads which overvalues a recent impression caused by one or two games and immediatly runs to concluding a general trend from that sample size.
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I think this is how English sides have blundered there way into deep competition this year, personally. So it's not one or two games or a recent impression for me, but I do admit to perhaps being overzealous by saying Europe, but I'm still not sure that's a stretch, either.

To the chagrin of others, I've been outspoken about the poor quality of the PL this season, but also for how underwhelming teams have looked in Europe. Quality is being foregone in favour of using athletic advantage to great effect - it's felt as though if English teams were to get anywhere this season it would be via athletic prowess and the stumbling block to that advantage would be facing another from the same division. Losing to outright quality is a bit different; I have maintained the matador and bull theme for PSG, but you need to have special players to perform like that to negate athleticism, and even they weren't able to sustain the method without concerted periods of rest.

The thread is a culmination of games from a very odd season - watching a poor Chelsea steamroll a Betis side who have been getting plaudits lately, making them look like boys athletically looked strange for the stage of the competition it was. A reasonable counter may be that Betis are knackered because of a smaller squad with less quality and simply burned the last of their candle early in the game, or perhaps saying the occasion was too big for them and they bottled it, for me as a viewer it looked like a physical and athletic mismatch. That stood out more than anything else. Antony getting stick for being the same old Antony, but the reality there is PL teams are like brick walls to him reducing his options to what we're familiar with.

@didz pulled up a rather useful link that goes some way to explaining what my eyes are telling me I'm seeing. Confirmation bias? Perhaps, but I really don't think so. Still, Chelsea #6 just ran Betis #34, into the ground.

What is a definition of sample size, by the way? Do we paw over just this season or wait for another before being able to draw conclusions?
 
Theres clips of McTominay bossing Serie A midfields like he's playing against under 15's.

Casemiro mauled Zubimendi at Old Trafford.

Just a couple of things that stood out to me recently.
 
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