Agree. So where does he play? You have seen the profile of what Amorim had at Sporting (Trincao and Goncalves) and what he is going after this window (Cunha and Mbeumo). I dont see how Zirkzee fits in as a 10 either.
The case for Zirkzee as #9
- Thread starter Walrus
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Agree. So where does he play? You have seen the profile of what Amorim had at Sporting (Trincao and Goncalves) and what he is going after this window (Cunha and Mbeumo). I dont see how Zirkzee fits in as a 10 either.
Close the case. His finishing was laughable last season. As an option off the bench, I’d keep him for another year but he can’t be our main striker.
Bergkamp did ok.
Bergkamp - one of the best PL players of all time.
Zirkzee - subbed before half time.
Not really in the same league!
I do agree on the moving through treacle pun, for such a big man he doesn’t use his physicality However I think when I went to OT before his injury he definitely improved, if you had Cunha, Mbeumo playing with him that would work but wouldn’t guarantee huge improvements, we need a proper number 9 and use Zirkzee as rotationally forward who can play 9 or 10 and then If he can’t get up to speed at the end of 25/26 season, he needs to go but we should give him one more year, if the club was to get rid of Sancho, Hojlund, Garnacho, Rashford, Anthony and Zirkzee, INEOS will only replace those 6 players with 3 when it should be 4/5 attacking players.
We need 5 out and 3 attackers in plus a goal scoring BTB midfielder?
To be honest, I would rather just move him on. We need better.
I view Zirkzee a bit like Joelinton when he first came to the league or Moussa Dembele when he joined Fulham.
Prior to joining the league they were a different type of player but need to be retrained to a new position to be effective because they have the physique and quality needed for the the PL.
Joelinton was a joke as a number nine but has been a hell of effective midfielder for Newcastle. Dembele was a talented but unproductive second striker early on at Fulham but turned into a complete beast when moved to CM.
This isn’t me saying that Zirkzee is definitely going to be a CM but if he can really learn how to make use of his frame and put in some off the ball effort he can absolutely be an impactful player. It might require a change of role or team structure but there is something to work with in Zirkzee for sure.
Prior to joining the league they were a different type of player but need to be retrained to a new position to be effective because they have the physique and quality needed for the the PL.
Joelinton was a joke as a number nine but has been a hell of effective midfielder for Newcastle. Dembele was a talented but unproductive second striker early on at Fulham but turned into a complete beast when moved to CM.
This isn’t me saying that Zirkzee is definitely going to be a CM but if he can really learn how to make use of his frame and put in some off the ball effort he can absolutely be an impactful player. It might require a change of role or team structure but there is something to work with in Zirkzee for sure.
Both of those guys were lean, rangy and rapid though? Zirkzee just looks visibly out of shape whenever I have seen him, maybe after pre season we will see the 80kg CM Zirkzee
If a decent offer comes in for Zirkzee, which is unlikely, I think the club would sell. Even though it would likely be another PSR and real money loss. As it would be for the Hojlund sale.
Im not sure if its a case of INEOS not wanting to spend (even though there isnt much in the kitty thanks to The Glazers and the teams failures), it is that we will be up against it from a PSR perspective. Its when happens when you buy high, sell low.
We really need the sales of Rashford and Garnacho so we can show "pure profit" on the books and then amortize future deals over multiple years.
The issue is, there is more than just the forward line that needs fixing. Definitely need to improve midfield, as you say. And we need two way full backs/wing backs. And a keeper!
As much as Amorim and INEOS can be critized, they really have been left a stinker of a squad that have been bought for huge money and put on big wages.
The strongest case for Zirkzee is that he is not Rasmus Hojlund.
That is true and it’s why Zirkzee will need to make some adjustments this summer. He either needs to get leaner, fitter and up his off the ball intensity and if he doesn’t do that he needs to seriously increase his scoring output.
I don’t know if he has it in him to be a scorer, you watch him and it doesn’t even seem like it’s something he wants to do.
It’s why I think he’s a bit similar to Joelinton and Dembele. Their physicality and running ability with the ball was much more useful in midfield than up front. Only problem is I don’t see that possibility for him in an Amorim midfield setup.
Agreed, I think he has to really push to evolve as a player because as much as I like that he came back from the booing and was 'ok', he really wasn't good enough.
I like the idea of him as a classic 10, playing behind a 9 who is rapid (ironically I do think him and Hojlund would pair quite nicely despite how poor they have been) if we were to start being much more direct, cross a lot more and he'd have that space that someone like McT thrives on where you can arrive a bit late around the box and the CBs can't really step out as they have a CF pulling them around.
We'd probably have just as much luck with Maguire as a 9.
I don’t disagree on your comments regarding Garnacho and Rashford we must sell for Academy profit to offset PSR, this is why Zirkzee will be kept he was bought by INEOS not the previous regime and they will want to give maximum time for their own transfers to come good.
Yes the keeper is as much a priority as the number 9 tbf and we need to start going for PL proven until the squad starts to settle into more consistent performances.
If he up his stamina and explosiveness at least 10-15% he can be sort of useful for 30 minutes and certain games, but he's just way too slow to work in Amorim's system. Also I would suspect he ends up like Martial who when tried to work hard off the ball just started to pull his hammies and totally resigned later on.
We dont have better and will be usefull as a squad player, but really really hope he's at lease no2 in the pecking order but rather no3 option in case we get Mbeumo to alternate there.
We dont have better and will be usefull as a squad player, but really really hope he's at lease no2 in the pecking order but rather no3 option in case we get Mbeumo to alternate there.
He doesn`t have an awful lot of experience at good level, one season in Belgium and one in Italy. Think we have to add that in here. Then he moves to the toughest league in the world and gets stunned a bit by the pace and intensity. He can not play the way he used to and needs to trim down and act quicker, which he manages to do imo, at least to some extent.
He looked a bit leaner and quicker later on, and more decisive in his actions. His big frame combined with his quick feet is in theory at least a very good combination. Him playing as a 9 could work, but it would require some good work from Ruben to coach him. Since we quite often are trying to break down compact defenses, outright pace is not that important. As we saw evidenced by Rasmus this season. Rasmus has good top speed but was consistently wearing a centreback as backpack and very rarely were able to things he is more comfortable with, which is running into space and challenge defenders in a foot race. Zirkzee is abit stronger and way more technical than Rasmus so why not.
He looked a bit leaner and quicker later on, and more decisive in his actions. His big frame combined with his quick feet is in theory at least a very good combination. Him playing as a 9 could work, but it would require some good work from Ruben to coach him. Since we quite often are trying to break down compact defenses, outright pace is not that important. As we saw evidenced by Rasmus this season. Rasmus has good top speed but was consistently wearing a centreback as backpack and very rarely were able to things he is more comfortable with, which is running into space and challenge defenders in a foot race. Zirkzee is abit stronger and way more technical than Rasmus so why not.
I'd venture to guess Maguire would score more goals. Or, Maguiredinho, as he is now known.
We would score headers as well.
There is no case for Zirkzee as our no 9.
By all accounts, Ashworth was instrumental in buying Zirkzee.
If the manager does not fancy him, i think he is gone, providing a buyer can be found. Same goes for any of last summers signings. I would not be surprised if Ugarte goes - even if we take a major loss on him - as Amorim doesn't seem to rate him. There is no point in players like this hanging around.
Zirkzee worked well as a second striker in Serie A where the game is slower and less physical. I dont see it every working for him in the PL where that second striker role doesnt exist.
It’s now looking like Mbeumo is coming, although the Delap transfer fell through.
As per the original post, I think with Cunha and Mbeumo in the 10 positions, you see an entirely different Zirkzee, holding the ball up and freeing the runners. I am excited to see it in action.
We still need another striker of course, and more than likely that striker will be more of a traditional #9 - but I definitely think Zirkzee can flourish in this setup and take some of the pressure off the other striker at least.
As per the original post, I think with Cunha and Mbeumo in the 10 positions, you see an entirely different Zirkzee, holding the ball up and freeing the runners. I am excited to see it in action.
We still need another striker of course, and more than likely that striker will be more of a traditional #9 - but I definitely think Zirkzee can flourish in this setup and take some of the pressure off the other striker at least.
He's just not hungry enough to be a goal scorer, just drifts into the box when he feels like it. Can only operate in those two 10 positions as a provider and even there he needs to improve. Great feet, decent vision and keeps the ball better than most of his teammates and i like his hold up play when his first touch is on song.
Off the ball i don't think he has the stamina to constantly press or chase the opponent high up the pitch because like you said he lacks the intensity. Whether he get fitter or not to improve that aspect im just not sure it will make a drastic difference because you also need that self urgency and bite to not let the opponent relax for 1 second. I just dont see that in him but hes not the only one guilty of that lack of fight,
The good thing is better and smarter players arriving may sharpen his game up bring out the best in him i hope. 10 goals and 10 assists should be a realistic target that's if he plays of course and plays well.
If Carlos Fernandes could work with Zirkzee on his finishing and turn him into a viable goal threat, then he could easily do this as a back up (but obviously not as a starter if we have someone like Gyokeres).
Funny that there are more rumors of team’s being interested in Hojlund than Zirkzee as much as the cafe seems to love him.
Could be that we don't want to sell Zirkzee of course?
There's no case for Zirkzee. He has to go, he is mediocre at best. No pace, no skills, unable to finish, simply not good enough. I was very pessimistic about him after we signed him, but he is even worse.
It makes me sad that our bar for "half-decent technical attacker with minimal end product" has gotten so much progressively lower with every passing year.
We had Berbatov up front in 08/09, not hitting double figures in either goals or assists in the league playing for the best team in the world. Even though he (somehow) won a Golden Boot in his time with us, it was always a problem with him - flitting in and out of games, scoring too many inconsequential goals and going missing at key stages.
A couple of seasons after that we had Welbeck, who knitted play together so well but didn't hit double figures in league goals until just now at age 35, and famously scored, what was it, 2 in the PL? the last time we won the title.
We had Mata for years and years, strolling around making five yard passes look beautiful and scoring the odd beautiful free kick, but then you get to the end of the season and he's barely hit ten goal contributions.
We had Martial for nine seasons, and for most of that time apart from 2018 to 20 it was a case of "damn, how good COULD this player be with a little more intensity and ruthlessness in the final third!"
Zirkzee makes me pine desperately for all the guys above. Absolute nothing footballer.
We had Berbatov up front in 08/09, not hitting double figures in either goals or assists in the league playing for the best team in the world. Even though he (somehow) won a Golden Boot in his time with us, it was always a problem with him - flitting in and out of games, scoring too many inconsequential goals and going missing at key stages.
A couple of seasons after that we had Welbeck, who knitted play together so well but didn't hit double figures in league goals until just now at age 35, and famously scored, what was it, 2 in the PL? the last time we won the title.
We had Mata for years and years, strolling around making five yard passes look beautiful and scoring the odd beautiful free kick, but then you get to the end of the season and he's barely hit ten goal contributions.
We had Martial for nine seasons, and for most of that time apart from 2018 to 20 it was a case of "damn, how good COULD this player be with a little more intensity and ruthlessness in the final third!"
Zirkzee makes me pine desperately for all the guys above. Absolute nothing footballer.
It took him half a season to get fit and then his hammy went. Which doesn’t bode well for a starting CF.
But if he stays fit and comes back in shape after the summer, has a good pre-season with Cunha and (fingers crossed) Mbeumo, then he might surprise us all.
But I’d much rather start the season with a new CF and let Zirkzee be backup and Obi as the 3rd option.
But if he stays fit and comes back in shape after the summer, has a good pre-season with Cunha and (fingers crossed) Mbeumo, then he might surprise us all.
But I’d much rather start the season with a new CF and let Zirkzee be backup and Obi as the 3rd option.
This man spents less time in the box and is less hungry for goals than Martial who often got criticised for not being a real striker. Zirkzee is way worse. If we were playing a 2 striker formation he would make sense.
Zirkzee should be surrounded by better players in attacking areas next season so he’ll have a chance to show his level. If he remains his usual slow, ponderous, weak self then he can have no complaints and needs getting rid of. If he brings more of the rare flashes of skill that he’s shown thus far - and they are few and far between - then he might have a chance of succeeding here.
Fergie would have gotten rid of him after a few games, but that’s because of the environment he was coming into. We’re nowhere near that level at present, but the signings we’re looking to make should take us a couple of steps closer. Zirkzee has to up his game and consistency because his floor is so low that we can’t afford to carry him.
Fergie would have gotten rid of him after a few games, but that’s because of the environment he was coming into. We’re nowhere near that level at present, but the signings we’re looking to make should take us a couple of steps closer. Zirkzee has to up his game and consistency because his floor is so low that we can’t afford to carry him.
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Exactly. An attacking player with the ability to hold the ball up in tight spaces and pulls centre backs simply for his physical size/ability would be a great foil for other players around him.
He can help us dominate the ball In attacking areas and allow smaller/more mobile attacking players around him more space and more time in the penalty box.
The absolute opposite effect Ronaldo had when he first came ( he scored a ton of goals, but the goalscoring across the team took a nose dive ).
Anyway whether he s good enough to be a starter or not, he can still provide a valuable plan B depending on tactical needs of the game in case we get a capable 9.
No, he can't hack it in this league as a striker. Unfortunately is too pedestrian for the league, does not matter what skills he possesses. If he had any kind of pace, he would have a chance.
32 matches 3 goals. Well done. Our backup striker and main striker are garbos. The plan failed massively.
So no, the more I see Zirkzee the more I am convinced he is not a CF. He is a second striker at best and actually he looks more like an AM.
So no, the more I see Zirkzee the more I am convinced he is not a CF. He is a second striker at best and actually he looks more like an AM.
I think he would better as a 10 with Cunha and Mbuemo playing as wide 9s in front of him. He can drop and collect the ball and those two can make the runs behind defenders, he was showing some better passing skill and link up play before the injury. If he develops into a better goal scorer that’s added skill to his game. That’s ideally how I would play assuming the club doesn’t sign a striker this window. 3-4-1-2 with Bruno playing as the 10 in games where 2 real CMs needed, and then Bruno drops back into midfield and Zirkzee comes in for games where breaking teams down is more difficult.
One problem, Cunha doesn't make runs in behind.
He's similar to zirkzee in that he likes ball into feet. This is why we need a Striker that stretches the defense and is happy in the box.