The case for Zirkzee as #9

Lay said:
Not as a 9 as he doesn't have the instincts. He needs to improve his intensity because the technical game is there.
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Agree. So where does he play? You have seen the profile of what Amorim had at Sporting (Trincao and Goncalves) and what he is going after this window (Cunha and Mbeumo). I dont see how Zirkzee fits in as a 10 either.
 
Close the case. His finishing was laughable last season. As an option off the bench, I’d keep him for another year but he can’t be our main striker.
 
gaffs said:
Zirkzee is not a Premier League striker. Far too slow, not particularly strong and doesn't score goals - an quite terrible combination of attributes.

I was stunned the first time i saw him play in the flesh at OT. He looks like he is moving through treacle. It doesn't look right to see a PL player move so slowly.

Im not sure what the plan that ETH/Ashworth/INEOS had for him? And the fact he is better than Hojlund is faint praise.

I wouldn't be surprised if he gets sold back to Italy.
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Bergkamp did ok.
 
gaffs said:
Zirkzee is not a Premier League striker. Far too slow, not particularly strong and doesn't score goals - an quite terrible combination of attributes.

I was stunned the first time i saw him play in the flesh at OT. He looks like he is moving through treacle. It doesn't look right to see a PL player move so slowly.

Im not sure what the plan that ETH/Ashworth/INEOS had for him? And the fact he is better than Hojlund is faint praise.

I wouldn't be surprised if he gets sold back to Italy.
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I do agree on the moving through treacle pun, for such a big man he doesn’t use his physicality However I think when I went to OT before his injury he definitely improved, if you had Cunha, Mbeumo playing with him that would work but wouldn’t guarantee huge improvements, we need a proper number 9 and use Zirkzee as rotationally forward who can play 9 or 10 and then If he can’t get up to speed at the end of 25/26 season, he needs to go but we should give him one more year, if the club was to get rid of Sancho, Hojlund, Garnacho, Rashford, Anthony and Zirkzee, INEOS will only replace those 6 players with 3 when it should be 4/5 attacking players.

We need 5 out and 3 attackers in plus a goal scoring BTB midfielder?
 
I view Zirkzee a bit like Joelinton when he first came to the league or Moussa Dembele when he joined Fulham.

Prior to joining the league they were a different type of player but need to be retrained to a new position to be effective because they have the physique and quality needed for the the PL.

Joelinton was a joke as a number nine but has been a hell of effective midfielder for Newcastle. Dembele was a talented but unproductive second striker early on at Fulham but turned into a complete beast when moved to CM.

This isn’t me saying that Zirkzee is definitely going to be a CM but if he can really learn how to make use of his frame and put in some off the ball effort he can absolutely be an impactful player. It might require a change of role or team structure but there is something to work with in Zirkzee for sure.
 
El Jefe said:
I view Zirkzee a bit like Joelinton when he first came to the league or Moussa Dembele when he joined Fulham.

Prior to joining the league they were a different type of player but need to be retrained to a new position to be effective because they have the physique and quality needed for the the PL.

Joelinton was a joke as a number nine but has been a hell of effective midfielder for Newcastle. Dembele was a talented but unproductive second striker early on at Fulham but turned into a complete beast when moved to CM.

This isn’t me saying that Zirkzee is definitely going to be a CM but if he can really learn how to make use of his frame and put in some off the ball effort he can absolutely be an impactful player. It might require a change of role or team structure but there is something to work with in Zirkzee for sure.
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Both of those guys were lean, rangy and rapid though? Zirkzee just looks visibly out of shape whenever I have seen him, maybe after pre season we will see the 80kg CM Zirkzee
 
Woziak said:
I do agree on the moving through treacle pun, for such a big man he doesn’t use his physicality However I think when I went to OT before his injury he definitely improved, if you had Cunha, Mbeumo playing with him that would work but wouldn’t guarantee huge improvements, we need a proper number 9 and use Zirkzee as rotationally forward who can play 9 or 10 and then If he can’t get up to speed at the end of 25/26 season, he needs to go but we should give him one more year, if the club was to get rid of Sancho, Hojlund, Garnacho, Rashford, Anthony and Zirkzee, INEOS will only replace those 6 players with 3 when it should be 4/5 attacking players.

We need 5 out and 3 attackers in plus a goal scoring BTB midfielder?
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If a decent offer comes in for Zirkzee, which is unlikely, I think the club would sell. Even though it would likely be another PSR and real money loss. As it would be for the Hojlund sale.

Im not sure if its a case of INEOS not wanting to spend (even though there isnt much in the kitty thanks to The Glazers and the teams failures), it is that we will be up against it from a PSR perspective. Its when happens when you buy high, sell low.

We really need the sales of Rashford and Garnacho so we can show "pure profit" on the books and then amortize future deals over multiple years.

The issue is, there is more than just the forward line that needs fixing. Definitely need to improve midfield, as you say. And we need two way full backs/wing backs. And a keeper!

As much as Amorim and INEOS can be critized, they really have been left a stinker of a squad that have been bought for huge money and put on big wages.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
Both of those guys were lean, rangy and rapid though? Zirkzee just looks visibly out of shape whenever I have seen him, maybe after pre season we will see the 80kg CM Zirkzee
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That is true and it’s why Zirkzee will need to make some adjustments this summer. He either needs to get leaner, fitter and up his off the ball intensity and if he doesn’t do that he needs to seriously increase his scoring output.

I don’t know if he has it in him to be a scorer, you watch him and it doesn’t even seem like it’s something he wants to do.

It’s why I think he’s a bit similar to Joelinton and Dembele. Their physicality and running ability with the ball was much more useful in midfield than up front. Only problem is I don’t see that possibility for him in an Amorim midfield setup.
 
El Jefe said:
That is true and it’s why Zirkzee will need to make some adjustments this summer. He either needs to get leaner, fitter and up his off the ball intensity and if he doesn’t do that he needs to seriously increase his scoring output.

I don’t know if he has it in him to be a scorer, you watch him and it doesn’t even seem like it’s something he wants to do.

It’s why I think he’s a bit similar to Joelinton and Dembele. Their physicality and running ability with the ball was much more useful in midfield than up front. Only problem is I don’t see that possibility for him in an Amorim midfield setup.
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Agreed, I think he has to really push to evolve as a player because as much as I like that he came back from the booing and was 'ok', he really wasn't good enough.

I like the idea of him as a classic 10, playing behind a 9 who is rapid (ironically I do think him and Hojlund would pair quite nicely despite how poor they have been) if we were to start being much more direct, cross a lot more and he'd have that space that someone like McT thrives on where you can arrive a bit late around the box and the CBs can't really step out as they have a CF pulling them around.
 
gaffs said:
If a decent offer comes in for Zirkzee, which is unlikely, I think the club would sell. Even though it would likely be another PSR and real money loss. As it would be for the Hojlund sale.

Im not sure if its a case of INEOS not wanting to spend (even though there isnt much in the kitty thanks to The Glazers and the teams failures), it is that we will be up against it from a PSR perspective. Its when happens when you buy high, sell low.

We really need the sales of Rashford and Garnacho so we can show "pure profit" on the books and then amortize future deals over multiple years.

The issue is, there is more than just the forward line that needs fixing. Definitely need to improve midfield, as you say. And we need two way full backs/wing backs. And a keeper!

As much as Amorim and INEOS can be critized, they really have been left a stinker of a squad that have been bought for huge money and put on big wages.
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I don’t disagree on your comments regarding Garnacho and Rashford we must sell for Academy profit to offset PSR, this is why Zirkzee will be kept he was bought by INEOS not the previous regime and they will want to give maximum time for their own transfers to come good.

Yes the keeper is as much a priority as the number 9 tbf and we need to start going for PL proven until the squad starts to settle into more consistent performances.
 
If he up his stamina and explosiveness at least 10-15% he can be sort of useful for 30 minutes and certain games, but he's just way too slow to work in Amorim's system. Also I would suspect he ends up like Martial who when tried to work hard off the ball just started to pull his hammies and totally resigned later on.

We dont have better and will be usefull as a squad player, but really really hope he's at lease no2 in the pecking order but rather no3 option in case we get Mbeumo to alternate there.
 
He doesn`t have an awful lot of experience at good level, one season in Belgium and one in Italy. Think we have to add that in here. Then he moves to the toughest league in the world and gets stunned a bit by the pace and intensity. He can not play the way he used to and needs to trim down and act quicker, which he manages to do imo, at least to some extent.
He looked a bit leaner and quicker later on, and more decisive in his actions. His big frame combined with his quick feet is in theory at least a very good combination. Him playing as a 9 could work, but it would require some good work from Ruben to coach him. Since we quite often are trying to break down compact defenses, outright pace is not that important. As we saw evidenced by Rasmus this season. Rasmus has good top speed but was consistently wearing a centreback as backpack and very rarely were able to things he is more comfortable with, which is running into space and challenge defenders in a foot race. Zirkzee is abit stronger and way more technical than Rasmus so why not.
 
Woziak said:
I don’t disagree on your comments regarding Garnacho and Rashford we must sell for Academy profit to offset PSR, this is why Zirkzee will be kept he was bought by INEOS not the previous regime and they will want to give maximum time for their own transfers to come good.

Yes the keeper is as much a priority as the number 9 tbf and we need to start going for PL proven until the squad starts to settle into more consistent performances.
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By all accounts, Ashworth was instrumental in buying Zirkzee.

If the manager does not fancy him, i think he is gone, providing a buyer can be found. Same goes for any of last summers signings. I would not be surprised if Ugarte goes - even if we take a major loss on him - as Amorim doesn't seem to rate him. There is no point in players like this hanging around.

Zirkzee worked well as a second striker in Serie A where the game is slower and less physical. I dont see it every working for him in the PL where that second striker role doesnt exist.
 
It’s now looking like Mbeumo is coming, although the Delap transfer fell through.

As per the original post, I think with Cunha and Mbeumo in the 10 positions, you see an entirely different Zirkzee, holding the ball up and freeing the runners. I am excited to see it in action.

We still need another striker of course, and more than likely that striker will be more of a traditional #9 - but I definitely think Zirkzee can flourish in this setup and take some of the pressure off the other striker at least.
 
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