Berbatov or Henry?

GlastonSpur

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He also tried to argue with me that Bale is better than Heinze ...
Not true.

I said that Heinze would be preferred in a starting XI for a game starting tomorrow, because Bale is unproven even tho' most people agree he has enormous potential.

I also said that given Bale's age and long-term potential I think SAF would happily do a transfer swap of Heinze for Bale if it were on offer. If you think otherwise, then let me know when Heinze is sold for 10m and I might be persuaded.
 

Eto'odinho

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You make some good points, some of which I agree with and some I don't.

I could make various points about Henry's deficiencies - his lack of team spirit, his sulking, his morale-sapping put-downs of team-mates, and often his lazy work rate for example.
Again you are veering off topic to suit your own needs, how many times has Henry dragged Arsenal from the brink? Remember his goal against us in the league in 06/07? Henry was the team's captain and I have lost count of the number of times he served as an inspiration for Arsenal.

But if Henry is still such an amazingly fantastic player and still so superior to Berbatov, then ask yourself this:

Why has he been sold for much less money than Berbatov would fetch if he was placed on the market?
Who gives you the idea that anyone was interested in Berbatov, as for United it is now obvious that we were never interested as Fergie came out and said that the club's solicitor Maurice Watkins has been working on the Tevez's transfer for a month now.
 

Moorsey1

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I can't understand this thread. Henry gets injured for a whole season, and all of a sudden, arguably the greatest Premiership player ever, becomes inferior to Berbatov.
Stupid debate.
Spot on....Henry didn't even have something like a cruciate injury it was a groin injury which given time would be as good as it was before....no doubt Henry all the way
 

Bangor_Red

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one decent season,and suddenly berbatov is the best striker the pre has (even if henry was still at l'arse). Lets see how berbatov does this season.

If berbatov was better than henry now,then he would be at a club challenging for the champions league and league title,but he's a top 6 striker.maybe in a few more seasons i will rate him more highly,but fact is the media have hyped him up to be better than he is,and linked him to a £30 mill move to us.

I must admit though,i did get drawn in by the media's tales of him coming here,and that it would be a good thing,until i actually thought properly about it. Signing berbatov for £30 million this summer would have been like signing kevin doyle for the same amount (also had one decent season in the prem so far).
 

afrocentricity

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'kinell :rolleyes: ...

Henry hands down, you'll see this next season ...

Berbatov over Henry? :muppet:
 

GlastonSpur

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... Who gives you the idea that anyone was interested in Berbatov ... .
Maybe it's the 10,000 posts on this board since May calling on SAF to go get him. You know, little things like that.

Or maybe the quaint notion that a striker who played sublime football and got a goal or an assist in nearly every game he played in - right across the season - would attract a tiny bit of attention.

Or maybe the 5,000 media articles speculating about his imminent departure to a top 4 club.

Or maybe the fact that, according to reliable Spurs ITKs, Spurs have received several massive bids for Berbatov and turned them all down.
 

Trigg

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I can't understand this thread. Henry gets injured for a whole season, and all of a sudden, arguably the greatest Premiership player ever, becomes inferior to Berbatov.
Stupid debate.
I dont understand that reply. The question wasn't who was the best, but who would you have, right?

I didn't say Berbatov was better than Henry. I'd rather have Berbatov because I think he'd fit into the our style better, also think he'd be a much better strike partner for Rooney. He's also 3 years younger.

You can pick all the best players in the world and chances are it wont be the best 'team'. You need balance, Berbatov would give us that in my opinion. Hence my choice for Berbatov.
 
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Berbatov will be 27 early next year. Henry will be 30 next month.

Imagine that both players are available for the same price and same wages, and assume that United are looking for a new striker.

Take all factors into consideration - age, ability, form, attitude etc.

Given the choice, which one would you sign for United?

Berbatov ?
Henry ?
Berbatov. He is younger
 

Eto'odinho

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Or maybe the fact that, according to reliable Spurs ITKs, Spurs have received several massive bids for Berbatov and turned them all down.
You know when clubs reject or have massive bids turned down, they always tell the public such things.Besides what are these clubs? Do you honestly think that Manchester United's transfer policy gets dictated by the posts in this forum? Plus at the end of the last season Fergie stated clearly that he wanted a striker with pace, does Berbatov fit into this? This coupled with the fact that the club's solicitor has been working on the Tevez's deal for a month now really invalidates your claims as far United are concerned.
 

GlastonSpur

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Hmm. In the absence of an answer from GS I had to do my own dirty work. How many of Berbatov's 12 goals were against a team that finished in the top half of the table? 1.
All of his other 22 goals and 15 assists were crap that any old striker would have scored or made - right ?

Sounds like your scrabbling around for straws, desperate to try and prove that Berbatov is rubbish.
 

Eto'odinho

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All of his other 22 goals and 15 assists were crap that any old striker would have scored or made - right ?

Sounds like your scrabbling around for straws, desperate to try and prove that Berbatov is rubbish.
Mate no one is saying that Berbatov is rubbish, just that he is not better than Rooney or Henry and definitely NOT THE BEST IN THE LEAGUE Drogba included or excluded.
 

GlastonSpur

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You know when clubs reject or have massive bids turned down, they always tell the public such things....
Nonsense. The bidding club doesn't want to be embarassed, so they've no reason to speak. And the other club, if they don't actually want to sell, doesn't want to add fuel to the fire by speaking about bids either.

.. Do you honestly think that Manchester United's transfer policy gets dictated by the posts in this forum?
Obviously not - where have I said otherwise?

... at the end of the last season Fergie stated clearly that he wanted a striker with pace, does Berbatov fit into this? ...
No idea, it's your club. And I didn't say that United had made a bid. It amazes me how many posters are so keen to imply or pretend that I've said things that I actually haven't.

... the club's solicitor has been working on the Tevez's deal for a month ...
So what. The season ended much longer than a month ago, and preparations for pursuit of planned targets would have started well before it did finish. The fact that you're after Tevez now is not proof that United didn't bid for Berbatov, and then, having failed, turned their attentions to Tevez. I'm not saying United did bid for Berbatov - I don't know either way.
 

Eto'odinho

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Nonsense. The bidding club doesn't want to be embarassed, so they've no reason to speak. And the other club, if they don't actually want to sell, doesn't want to add fuel to the fire by speaking about bids either.
Rubbish, clubs like Tottenhamn enjoy sticking it up to the big clubs and any "massive" bid of over £15mil that was rejected would've been made public.

Obviously not - where have I said otherwise?


No idea, it's your club. And I didn't say that United had made a bid. It amazes me how many posters are so keen to imply or pretend that I've said things that I actually haven't.
.

Maybe it's the 10,000 posts on this board since May calling on SAF to go get him. You know, little things like that.

Or maybe the quaint notion that a striker who played sublime football and got a goal or an assist in nearly every game he played in - right across the season - would attract a tiny bit of attention.

Or maybe the 5,000 media articles speculating about his imminent departure to a top 4 club.

Or maybe the fact that, according to reliable Spurs ITKs, Spurs have received several massive bids for Berbatov and turned them all down.
If anything this thread just goes on to demonstrate how low standards have fallen at Spurs.For the love of everything sacred, declaring a striker that scores 23 goals in all competitions in a full season as being better than Henry/Rooney is just absurd. Henry is a proven world class forward and the fact that Berbatov who only outscored Henry by 2 goas having played twice the number of matches in the premiership without a niggling injury, gets to be mentioned on the same wavelength as this legend is simply astonishing. FACT: For class strikers like Henry scoring 20 league goals in a full a season is bread and butter, there are simply no ifs or buts with that.
 

GlastonSpur

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Mate no one is saying that Berbatov is rubbish, just that he is not better than .... Henry .. .
Ah, at last, we're getting back somewhere near back on topic, even though whether he's better than Henry is not actually the question I put forward.

To repeat: the question was who would make the better signing now, all things considered, including age, injuries, ability etc etc.

You think it's Henry - fair enough.
 

Eto'odinho

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Ah, at last, we're getting back somewhere near back on topic, even though whether he's better than Henry is not actually the question I put forward.

To repeat: the question was who would make the better signing now, all things considered, including age, injuries, ability etc etc.

You think it's Henry - fair enough.
He is also not better than Rooney, just thought I should point it out.
 

GlastonSpur

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.. For class strikers like Henry scoring 20 league goals in a full a season is bread and butter, there are simply no ifs or buts with that.
In the past, yes, but is that still the case?

No one has yet answered my post about why, if Henry is still so stupendously amazing and far superior to Berbatov, he was sold for far less than Berbatov would command if he was made available.
 

Eto'odinho

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In the past, yes, but is that still the case?

No one has yet answered my post about why, if Henry is still so stupendously amazing and far superior to Berbatov, he was sold for far less than Berbatov would command if he was made available.
Age, the player expressing a desire for pastures new, and a little thing of FIFA regulation concerning contracts,their lengths and players over the age of 28.

How much do you reckon Berbatov will command if made available?
 

KingEric7

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:lol:

Did you start watching football since 2002 or somehting?

So so ignorant to claim Henry's been the best ever, bullshit.
When did you start watching football then?
Since the start of the Premiership, i don't think there has been anyone better than Henry. Even Cantona, who in my opinion, was greater than God, was not in Henry's league.

Henry has been world class for about 7 straight seasons. He gets one evil injury, and all of a sudden he's past it. Some of the things being said in this thread are ludicrous.
Idiot.
 

GlastonSpur

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... How much do you reckon Berbatov will command if made available?
Your guess is as good as mine, especially in the new, super-inflated market we seem to have this summer.

My guess would be at least 25m, and probably much more.
 

GlastonSpur

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You know you talk about the past as if Henry stopped producing the goods ages ago. Henry notched up more than 25 league goals in 05/06 when he had a full season, is that too distant in the past for you?
No, but the season ahead is still two years on from the start of 2005-06.

I honestly don't think that many people now expect Henry, injuries and all, to reach those peaks again.
 

Eto'odinho

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Your guess is as good as mine, especially in the new, super-inflated market we seem to have this summer.

My guess would be at least 25m, and probably much more.
Good for him, but he is not better than Rooney or Henry and I will a million times pick Henry over him.There is not point going on debating the obvious here.Congratulations you have achieved your objectives of proving to the world how low standards are at Spurs and starting a thread that has spanned several pages.
 

Eto'odinho

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No, but the season ahead is still two years on from the start of 2005-06.

I honestly don't think that many people now expect Henry, injuries and all, to reach those peaks again.
Ruud didn't kick a ball for a calendar year and when he came back he scored 36 goals and 44 goals in his first two seasons after the layoff.
 

roonaldo78

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Henry, he has done it over several seasons and one of the best ever players to play in the Premiership.Berbatov looked good last season but he's got a long way to go to reach the level of Henry.
 

KingEric7

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I dont understand that reply. The question wasn't who was the best, but who would you have, right?

I didn't say Berbatov was better than Henry. I'd rather have Berbatov because I think he'd fit into the our style better, also think he'd be a much better strike partner for Rooney. He's also 3 years younger.

You can pick all the best players in the world and chances are it wont be the best 'team'. You need balance, Berbatov would give us that in my opinion. Hence my choice for Berbatov.
Fine.
But anybody with a brain would have Henry over Berbatov, even if he is 30.
Henry can better everything that Berbatov can do, and more.
 

peterstorey

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In the past, yes, but is that still the case?

No one has yet answered my post about why, if Henry is still so stupendously amazing and far superior to Berbatov, he was sold for far less than Berbatov would command if he was made available.
First up Berbatov wouldn't go for more than about £16M. Most people realise it's about residuals. Henry will have none, Berbatov more, Bent a lot. It's not the trump argument you seem to think it is.
 

Fortitude

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You make some good points, some of which I agree with and some I don't.

I could make various points about Henry's deficiencies - his lack of team spirit, his sulking, his morale-sapping put-downs of team-mates, and often his lazy work rate for example.
Whether I agreed with this or not ( I don't) It bears no relevance on Henry as a player ready to deliver the goods.

But if Henry is still such an amazingly fantastic player and still so superior to Berbatov, then ask yourself this:

Why has he been sold for much less money than Berbatov would fetch if he was placed on the market?
First of all, until bids are placed and made public, you have no idea how much Berbatov would or would not fetch. Secondly, if Berbatov wanted out, the price spurs could get if Berbatov only wanted to go to one club instead of on to an open market (sparking a bidding war, perhaps..) would decrease dramatically. Thirdly, in an open market I don't think Henry would be sold for less than Berbatov would be.

If the answer is age and being injury prone, then that is a factor in determining who'd make the better signing now - which is the question I asked in opening this thread.

If the answer is that he wanted to leave, that doesn't explain it. Carrick wanted to leave but we still got 18.6m for him even in last year's much less inflated market.

If the answer is that only Barca wanted him, that doesn't explain it either. It begs the question as to why there wasn't a global scramble of clubs bidding for his services. And Man. U were the only serious bidders for Carrick, but we still got that 18.6m
And to this;

1. Intra-PL transfers are notoriously exorbitant. The PL 'tax' clubs pay is absurd and well out of keeping with the world markets, hence, if Henry would invite it, the price an English club would pay for him would be astronomical.

2. Henry stated he would only leave Arsenal for Barca. This closed down any room for negotiation on a price. Barca didn't need Henry, they coveted him, though. That gives them leverage in any negotiation, not Arsenal.

2i. Manchester United are notoriously poor in the transfer market, we always pay more than other clubs and Spurs took advantage of our need for the player that they did not want to sell. That gives them leverage in any negotiation, not Manchester United.

2ii. Barcelona are very good negotiators in the market for the most part, they nearly always get players for the right money - they are rarely ripped off.

3. Outside of speculation we have facts. And the facts are that Henry is a prolific player who is proven on all fronts as a PL performer. On the other hand, Berbatov hasn't even gotten past his second season here and maintained or bettered the form shown in the first.

Henry is better than Berbatov at everything outside of heading a ball; faster; stronger; more assists; more goals. The only possible avenue for choosing Berbatov over him would be their ages and the possiblity of a re-sell on Bervatov a few years down the road. If they were both in the PL next season you'd get extremely long odds on Berbatov outdoing Henry at anything. Since Ruud has gone, Henry was out there on his own as the best goalscorer in the league, one injury that just required rest would not change people's perceptions of him as being the top dog in the league as far as strikers go (Rooney is not a striker.)
 

afrocentricity

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Well done to GlastonSpur for exposing most if not all of the caf muppets in one thread, more will follow no doubt.

Very good WUM GS ...

Berbatov better than Henry? I doubt GS or even Berbatov thinks that :houllier:
 

KingEric7

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The thing is afro, i actually think he's serious. :lol:
 

GlastonSpur

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Whether I agreed with this or not ( I don't) It bears no relevance on Henry as a player ready to deliver the goods....
Maybe not, but it does have a bearing on his impact on team spirit and morale. There are plenty of Arsenal fans who wondered, even before his departure, whether they'd be better off without him.

... if Berbatov wanted out, the price spurs could get if Berbatov only wanted to go to one club instead of on to an open market (sparking a bidding war, perhaps..) would decrease dramatically.
It didn't happen with Carrick, so no reason to suppose it would be any different with Berbatov. If a club wanted him enough, they'd pay close to the going rate, knowing they'd wouldn't get him otherwise.

Thirdly, in an open market I don't think Henry would be sold for less than Berbatov would be.
All this talk of an 'open market', as if what happened with Henry was some super special case outside of all market forces. It happens all the time that player X wants to go to club Y - it's nothing new, and it doesn't usually stop other clubs bidding for that player, or the selling club refusing to sell until their valuation is met. The fact is that Henry went for what the market was prepared to pay and for what Arsenal were prepared to accept.

I'm sorry if his sale price didn't match your elevated view of Henry, but in the real world Henry was well past his best sell-by-date, hence the fee paid.

Intra-PL transfers are notoriously exorbitant. The PL 'tax' clubs pay is absurd and well out of keeping with the world markets, hence, if Henry would invite it, the price an English club would pay for him would be astronomical.
You told me that I had no idea of what Berbatov would fetch, yet somehow you know that Henry 'would have' fetched an astronomical price in the Prem. How come?

No English club did actually bid for him, as far as we know, though Liverpool were rumoured to be interested. Maybe that tells us something.

Henry stated he would only leave Arsenal for Barca. This closed down any room for negotiation on a price.
Nonsense. If Arsenal had still wanted him badly enough they would have named a much higher price and stuck to it -just like Spurs did with Carrick. Arsenal had as much 'room for negotiation' as they cared to make - they obviously just didn't care to make that much room and so risk losing the sale.

Manchester United are notoriously poor in the transfer market, we always pay more than other clubs and Spurs took advantage of our need for the player that they did not want to sell. That gives them leverage in any negotiation, not Manchester United.
This distinction between 'want' and 'need' is totally artificial. You make it sound as if Barca are stupid enough to simply want players to display like trophies, even tho' they don't need them. Obviously Arsenal didn't 'want' or 'need' Henry that much, or they'd have held out for a much larger price.

... if they were both in the PL next season you'd get extremely long odds on Berbatov outdoing Henry at anything. ...
Don't believe that for one second. The bookies would have looked at Berbatov's goals and assists tally this last season, seen Henry another year older and with continuing injury problems - and slashed any 'long odds' down to the knuckle.
 

afrocentricity

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KingEric, I think your right ...

Oh yeah ... :muppet: