where's Cremboman? he's no longer property of the IDF so what's he up to now?
Scores die in Israeli air strikes
- Thread starter IhabX7
- Start date
Different war, same thread.
Claiming Israel is a ‘racist state’ because it’s a state reserved for Jews is like denouncing a battered cats’ refuge for not taking in any dogs. Yes, in an ideal world there’d have been no need to create a separate state just (or mostly) for Jews. But there was a need, because Europeans, and later some Arab states, couldn’t bring themselves to stop mass-murdering them in their own states. The 'racist state' accusation is what you get when you argue from absolute principles and ignore context.
Whether it’s sustainable is another question. I think not, because the religious have like six fecking kids each, and the Israeli Arabs have more kids than secular Jews do... in 100 years it will be mostly frummers in black hats and snoods, who won’t serve in the army, and Arabs, who can’t serve in the army.
Regarding the Israeli Arabs, people just assume shit...they should go to Israel and see for themselves - maybe even actually talk to some of them. The way TV reports it, you’d think the situation for Israeli Arabs was like it is for those in Gaza. But go to Tel Aviv/Jaffa, and you’ll see Jews and Arabs living together, working together every day. Is it a multi-ethnic paradise? No. Is there prejudice against them? Yes - like there is against all sorts of ethnic and religious groups in countries all round the world. Arabs aren’t as economically successful as Jews yet, but they’re richer than many in Arab countries. They have the vote, representatives in parliament, there’s an Arab judge on the supreme court... it’s a far cry from the situation for ethnic minorities in many other states in the region and the world.
The people with the most prejudice against Israeli Arabs tend to be certain sections of Mizrahi Jews, who originated from Middle Eastern countries. They’ve tended to be looked down on themselves, and outperformed economically, by European-origin Jews, and maybe have internalized prejudice and projected it onto the Arabs... or they remember well their or their families’ treatment under Arab regimes. It’s a problem like ethnic tension in all states is a problem, but for most people outside East Jerusalem it’s not that big an issue, they’re just getting on with their lives.
Claiming Israel is a ‘racist state’ because it’s a state reserved for Jews is like denouncing a battered cats’ refuge for not taking in any dogs. Yes, in an ideal world there’d have been no need to create a separate state just (or mostly) for Jews. But there was a need, because Europeans, and later some Arab states, couldn’t bring themselves to stop mass-murdering them in their own states. The 'racist state' accusation is what you get when you argue from absolute principles and ignore context.
Whether it’s sustainable is another question. I think not, because the religious have like six fecking kids each, and the Israeli Arabs have more kids than secular Jews do... in 100 years it will be mostly frummers in black hats and snoods, who won’t serve in the army, and Arabs, who can’t serve in the army.
Regarding the Israeli Arabs, people just assume shit...they should go to Israel and see for themselves - maybe even actually talk to some of them. The way TV reports it, you’d think the situation for Israeli Arabs was like it is for those in Gaza. But go to Tel Aviv/Jaffa, and you’ll see Jews and Arabs living together, working together every day. Is it a multi-ethnic paradise? No. Is there prejudice against them? Yes - like there is against all sorts of ethnic and religious groups in countries all round the world. Arabs aren’t as economically successful as Jews yet, but they’re richer than many in Arab countries. They have the vote, representatives in parliament, there’s an Arab judge on the supreme court... it’s a far cry from the situation for ethnic minorities in many other states in the region and the world.
The people with the most prejudice against Israeli Arabs tend to be certain sections of Mizrahi Jews, who originated from Middle Eastern countries. They’ve tended to be looked down on themselves, and outperformed economically, by European-origin Jews, and maybe have internalized prejudice and projected it onto the Arabs... or they remember well their or their families’ treatment under Arab regimes. It’s a problem like ethnic tension in all states is a problem, but for most people outside East Jerusalem it’s not that big an issue, they’re just getting on with their lives.
I agree with some of the points made by this article but the really striking part is the date.
1948 is 9 years after the start of the Second World War. Countries lost territory and indeed whole population were massacred and yet Europe has moved on. Despite the petty nationalism which rears its ugly head from time to time. The French British and Germans as well as a whole host of other nations are trying to settle their differences without fighting wars between themselves. This is a massive benefit to all the people of Europe and is sometimes taken for granted as we argue the worth of an institution (the EU which we all love to hate)
This article reminds me of how different things could be.
Beyond brilliantly put.
What Israel is doing is not self defence (400 killed in return for 4?)
It's is easy to isolate this war as some kind of novel standalone and thereby condemn Israel. Anyone can do it.
But it's all part of a centuries old battle so it would only be fair to amass the casualty figure form say 1948 to today - including all the wars Israel has had inflicted upon her that have led to the conflict right here, right now.
If we're going to play the stupid casualties to morality ratio then all the allies should hang their head in shame compared to the Nazi's who lost far more civilians than we ever did.
Israeli losses form Arab wars & terror
War Of Independence (1947-49)
6,373
1956 War
231
1967 War
776
War of Attrition (1968-70)
1,424
1973 War
2,688
Lebanon War (1982-85)
1,216
Palestinian War (2000-2005)
328
Hizballah War (2006)
117
Miscellaneous engagements and terrorist attacks
(through mid-2005)
9,243
Total
22,396*
*This number includes disabled IDF veterans who later died from their wounds and non- IDF personnel who fell in the line of duty.
There are 17,967 members of bereaved families, as follows:
3,285 widows
4,457 single bereaved parents
4,029 bereaved parents (couples) - 8,058 individuals
2,167 orphans
There are 79,239 disabled veterans.
The total population of bereaved families and disabled IDF veterans cared for by the Defense Ministry Rehabilitation department numbers is currently 97,206.
War Of Independence (1947-49)
6,373
1956 War
231
1967 War
776
War of Attrition (1968-70)
1,424
1973 War
2,688
Lebanon War (1982-85)
1,216
Palestinian War (2000-2005)
328
Hizballah War (2006)
117
Miscellaneous engagements and terrorist attacks
(through mid-2005)
9,243
Total
22,396*
*This number includes disabled IDF veterans who later died from their wounds and non- IDF personnel who fell in the line of duty.
There are 17,967 members of bereaved families, as follows:
3,285 widows
4,457 single bereaved parents
4,029 bereaved parents (couples) - 8,058 individuals
2,167 orphans
There are 79,239 disabled veterans.
The total population of bereaved families and disabled IDF veterans cared for by the Defense Ministry Rehabilitation department numbers is currently 97,206.
Looks like someone needs to move.
Put me down as someone who doesn't believe you.
Sorry about all the bad press.
I live in the states, which makes that the stupidest comment in this thread.So are you seriously telling me that you guys are justified in killing masses of palestinians because you've suffered casualties from DIFFERENT nations?
I'm speaking about the right here right now and if you want to compare numbers thats actually relevant to THIS current conflict then look at the number of palestinians killed compared to the number of Israelis killed (from the past also), but I guess then your argument loses a lot of weight.Indeed. We learned not to pin all our hopes on the potato.
So pinning all your hopes on the Americans (Israeli) or the Arab World (Palestinian) would be unproductive.
I dont know why youre getting so snippy about it.
If you peoples in Mid East cant solve it, no point in blaming the rest of us for not giving a damn.
Although youre all quick enough to shout "none of your business" if we dare to say anything that you dont like......such as.....youre all war mongerers.
Where does this expectation come from that people fighting a war will try to keep casualties roughly even? In what conflict has it ever happened like that? The Israelis, like any other state involved in an armed conflict, don't really give a feck how many of the other side they kill, but they are constrained to a degree by international pressure.
The reason that the number of fatalities is unequal is that the Palestinians currently don't have as much power as the Israelis. It's nothing to do with intent or morality. They kill as many Israelis as they can, and not only do they not care if civilians are killed, they deliberately target them. If they ever have the power to do so, they will not keep the Israelis in refugee camps or blockade them or attack their soldiers with too little regard for civilian casualties - they will kill every Israeli they can find. That's not controversial, it's Hamas' fecking raison d'etre.
If the IRA, at any point during the troubles, had moved from the occasional pub bomb to showering mainland Britain with 50 rockets a day, do you think the government would have balked at doing whatever they had to to make them stop, because civilians were being caught in the crossfire? Do you think public opinion would have let them?
Recognizing the "New Anti-Semitism"
Natan Sharansky
...Moreover, the so-called "new anti-Semitism" poses a unique challenge. Whereas classical anti-Semitism is aimed at the Jewish people or the Jewish religion, "new anti-Semitism" is aimed at the Jewish state. Since this anti-Semitism can hide behind the veneer of legitimate criticism of Israel, it is more difficult to expose. Making the task even harder is that this hatred is advanced in the name of values most of us would consider unimpeachable, such as human rights.
Nevertheless, we must be clear and outspoken in exposing the new anti-Semitism. I believe that we can apply a simple test - I call it the "3D" test - to help us distinguish legitimate criticism of Israel from anti-Semitism.
The first "D" is the test of demonization. When the Jewish state is being demonized; when Israel's actions are blown out of all sensible proportion; when comparisons are made between Israelis and Nazis and between Palestinian refugee camps and Auschwitz - this is anti- Semitism, not legitimate criticism of Israel.
The second "D" is the test of double standards. When criticism of Israel is applied selectively; when Israel is singled out by the United Nations for human rights abuses while the behavior of known and major abusers, such as China, Iran, Cuba, and Syria, is ignored; when Israel's Magen David Adom, alone among the world's ambulance services, is denied admission to the International Red Cross - this is anti-Semitism.
The third "D" is the test of delegitimization: when Israel's fundamental right to exist is denied - alone among all peoples in the world - this too is anti-Semitism.
Natan Sharansky
...Moreover, the so-called "new anti-Semitism" poses a unique challenge. Whereas classical anti-Semitism is aimed at the Jewish people or the Jewish religion, "new anti-Semitism" is aimed at the Jewish state. Since this anti-Semitism can hide behind the veneer of legitimate criticism of Israel, it is more difficult to expose. Making the task even harder is that this hatred is advanced in the name of values most of us would consider unimpeachable, such as human rights.
Nevertheless, we must be clear and outspoken in exposing the new anti-Semitism. I believe that we can apply a simple test - I call it the "3D" test - to help us distinguish legitimate criticism of Israel from anti-Semitism.
The first "D" is the test of demonization. When the Jewish state is being demonized; when Israel's actions are blown out of all sensible proportion; when comparisons are made between Israelis and Nazis and between Palestinian refugee camps and Auschwitz - this is anti- Semitism, not legitimate criticism of Israel.
The second "D" is the test of double standards. When criticism of Israel is applied selectively; when Israel is singled out by the United Nations for human rights abuses while the behavior of known and major abusers, such as China, Iran, Cuba, and Syria, is ignored; when Israel's Magen David Adom, alone among the world's ambulance services, is denied admission to the International Red Cross - this is anti-Semitism.
The third "D" is the test of delegitimization: when Israel's fundamental right to exist is denied - alone among all peoples in the world - this too is anti-Semitism.
Is opposition to Israel necessarily opposition to Jewish culture?
The Irish Republican Army did actually base strategy on one bomb in mainland Britain being worth 100 in "Northern Ireland" as a means of actually motivating British public opinion.
Their strategy was based on the premise...rightly or wrongly that......bombs in mainland Britain were likely to lead to British disengagement rather than your premise that it would actually have provoked a wider military response.
Not quite of course the same thing as firing rockets but the tactics of Irish Republican Army while obviously a terrorist organisation (I wont glorify them with any "freedom fighter" imagery) were obviously more restrained (no suicide bombers......at least not on purpose, no hijacking of planes).
Palestinians have pursued a more scorched earth, nihilistic, negative,defeatist strategy.
Unionists also feared that car bombs in London etc were the weakest link in British government resolve against fighting Terrorism. They hold that bombs at Bishopsgate and Canary Wharf particuarly hastened the end of the Terror Campaign.
Its a judgement I would leave to historians......30 years in the Future....as I cant quite work out the evidence. As you may observe its something that interests me for very practical reasons.
It always strikes me that comparison between "Northern Ireland" and Mid East is a risk.
The sheer level of hatred that I have observed in the Mid East is not something I can identify with, living most of my life in and around Belfast. Troublemakers were for the most part a highly motivated minority and there was a clear generational shift away from Terrorism and Counter Terrorism that was not evident in Mid East.
People had come to terms that more united them than divided them.
And I think (perhaps putting on rose tinted glasses here) all three sides to the Terror/Counter Terror were relatively restrained. It could have been so much worse but for the most part people lived and worked together without any real malice.
The biggest risk in comparison is to ignore the end result.
Republicans argued that "NI" had no right to exist and should be wiped off the map. Now terrorists share power in government. A good result? hardly.
The least bad result? I dont know.
But Hamas/Hizbollah argue Israel has no right to exist. So will the Conflict be ended by Israel and hamas/Hizbollah terrorists sharing power in a state they sought to wipe off the map.? Hardly.
In comparison "Northern Ireland" was a brawl in a car park......not to minimise the pain of people who suffered.
Netanyahu also said -
"Record my resignation: Here's the letter," Netanyahu told the prime minister. The letter, quoted by Army Radio, slammed the disengagement plan. "The moment of truth is here. I am not willing to collaborate with this process, which endangers the country's security," Netanyahu wrote.
"I had demanded that we keep the Philadelphi route [along the Gaza-Egypt border] to counter the impression that we are running away from terrorism. The government is ignoring the reality: Terrorism is continuing, the Hamas is growing stronger, terrorists will smuggle weapons from Gaza to the southern West Bank."
"I don't know when the terrorism will erupt in full force -- my hope is that it won't ever. But I am convinced today that the disengagement will eventually aggravate terrorism instead of reducing it. The security establishment also expects an increase in terrorism," he wrote.
Beyond a certain point, yes
So if we get rid of antisemitism (not including New Antisemitism), will anti-Israel sentiment vanish?
Not really, as criticism to Israel doesn't necessarily focus on Judaism.
This sort of bullshit is why there will never be a successful debate about how to deal with the problem. Arguments like this, in my opinion, are the heart of the problem.
Segregation should only only ever be a short term, stop gap measure to prevent immediate casualties. And the need for it with regards a specifically Jewish state should have gradually eroded away a long time ago. Long term segregation is a really bad idea in my opinion.
On a separate note, I was reading that there are something like 1.5 million people living in the Gaza strip; all those people crammed into the same land area as the Isle of Wight! That's far beyond a sustainable population level, even if it was the most peaceful nation on earth. No wonder there's so much collateral damage when Israel attacks. Something needs to be done immediately to lower the population level at the very least. Otherwise unemployment, poverty and ultimately starvation are unavoidable...even if peace does arrive.
From a pro-Palestinian protest in Manhattan Sunday.
Put me down as someone who doesn't believe you.
Sorry about all the bad press.
Not at all. I'm not blaming the press, but clearly the pictures from Gaza are hard and far more disturbing than anything we can show, as our weapons do cause far more damage.
An Israeli's story about living under constant rocket attacks for eight years obviously suddenly doesn't sound nearly as bad when compared to those photos, but try to say that to those who have been living through this terrible reality.
Difficult as it is for me to say, he got a lot of things right over the last few years. Oh well, elections are coming up and he'll probably win, which will give him three years (governments here never last full term) to translate his words into actions, which clearly won't work, as our leaders are far better when they are opposed to the government rather than form it themselves.
I, still, don't understand why the Jewish people wouldn't be happier to move their state to somewhere like Lake Havasu, Arizona.
I'm positive the United States would make an exception for the Jewish people to have their very own Jewish state away from all the turmoil of the middle-east.
Just think of the Mega-Casinos they could build?
There have proposals for territory exchange involving Israel, the Palestinians and even Egypt. However, it appears that we're pretty far from having both sides sitting with each other trying to be constructive about finding a lasting and just solution to the conflict.
From a pro-Palestinian protest in Manhattan Sunday.
You have to admire freedom of speech
Firstly, your mistaken about my identity. I'm no Israeli.So are you seriously telling me that you guys are justified in killing masses of palestinians because you've suffered casualties from DIFFERENT nations?
I'm speaking about the right here right now and if you want to compare numbers thats actually relevant to THIS current conflict then look at the number of palestinians killed compared to the number of Israelis killed (from the past also), but I guess then your argument loses a lot of weight.
Secondly I've said compared stats on death. Or said Israel can do as they please to Palestinians because it was once done to them. I've instead said, that Hamas' continued attacks on Israel have justified their current response. They have to protect their citizens. It just that many innocent civilian deaths, on the Palestinian side, which Hamas was banking on, keeps detracting from that stone cold fact. Because Hamas hides it's people and fortresses of chaos amongst the innocent populace of Gaza. So taking out Hamas targets inevitably means taking many none Hamas people with it. That is the bitter cost of of such war.
Furthermore in my post you quoted. I was actually talking what I would love to see happen to the extremists and hate mongers on both sides. Morons like Sharon and that idiot who's in humane plan was posted in this thread earlier, and the likes of Hamas and Fatah. They all deserve death. If they weren't around the millions of innocents who have suffered on either side, for ages till now, would be living in peace right now.
Sorry mate I only meant to quote fearless' post not yours. Ahhh I thought you were israeli, sorry about that too and yep I agree with your post.
Um, that's probably because of the killing of kids and whatnot. Pictures, such a teller of the truth. What a bunch of cnuts.
Let me know when your slaughter of kids equals the non deaths from all those wayward, un-aimed missiles. You have become what you ran from. It's very impressive.
As of today, Israel is a disgusting, murderous nation. Congrats! It's very impressive and not at all oddly timed with the presidency of Obama!
I, still, don't understand why the Jewish people wouldn't be happier to move their state to somewhere like Lake Havasu, Arizona.
I'm positive the United States would make an exception for the Jewish people to have their very own Jewish state away from all the turmoil of the middle-east.
Just think of the Mega-Casinos they could build?
Seriously, how could you say no to something this beautiful?
Hilarious. The US would never allow such a thing, but that was an enjoyable thought.
So, then it's cool for Hamas to continue to kill innocent Israelis?
Just trying to follow the logic.
This shite between them has been stinking for ages but over the last sixty years or so thanks to the media reach and failed third party mediation efforts, the war has taken a different shape, from an internal civil struggle with in a country it first concentrated into Zionism versus Arab nationalists and finally transposed into Zionism versus Islam. It has now boiled over into projecting Israel as the enemy of Muslims and also a terrorist state among human rights muppets for no apparent reasons. The biggest feckup on the part of Israel and the Arab insurgents was first to entertain third party mediation, it became obvious when the UK and then the US should take some stance and it was only a matter a time they all got projected as the enemy of Islam as a whole. Jews would've made lesser enemies among Muslim countries, had they adapted a stance in the middle of last century that the conflict with Arabs is their internal issue and would sort things out by themselves and its their foolishness to internationalize the issue by accepting third party mediation that now could now destroy them completely- whenever any country tries to drag in the international community over their domestic squabbles, international terrorism and antagonism would inevitably come along with it as the derivative. Hamas or the recent rocket attacks are just the byproducts the damage was done long back.
As of now inspite of internal sect division amongst Muslim ranks, that usually ends up in explosions and annihilating themselves, Israel has become a common axis for all these Jihadi factionists to unite together and take on an illusionary monster. Dont blame the Jews entirely though the genocide they suffered in the holocaust, made to work only on their survival instincts, and now Jews as a whole are skating on a thin ice , having made strong enemies all around the globe, they've forced themselves to the corner and ultimately taken a Nazi stance which should trigger their demise sooner than later.
India faced the same problem but we were strong not to entertain third party mediation when the likes Soviet Union, USA and later SA offered to play the match official for the Kashmir problem inspite of Pakistan clutching at straws dragging the problem to the general assembly. Had it happened an internal chaos would've erupted in the country and the nation would've been in a bigger blood bath than whats happenning in the middle east. India has a bigger Muslim population than Pakistan but the trouble makers are only handful and are getting internally stoned by their respective commnuites once they cross certain limit.
As of now inspite of internal sect division amongst Muslim ranks, that usually ends up in explosions and annihilating themselves, Israel has become a common axis for all these Jihadi factionists to unite together and take on an illusionary monster. Dont blame the Jews entirely though the genocide they suffered in the holocaust, made to work only on their survival instincts, and now Jews as a whole are skating on a thin ice , having made strong enemies all around the globe, they've forced themselves to the corner and ultimately taken a Nazi stance which should trigger their demise sooner than later.
India faced the same problem but we were strong not to entertain third party mediation when the likes Soviet Union, USA and later SA offered to play the match official for the Kashmir problem inspite of Pakistan clutching at straws dragging the problem to the general assembly. Had it happened an internal chaos would've erupted in the country and the nation would've been in a bigger blood bath than whats happenning in the middle east. India has a bigger Muslim population than Pakistan but the trouble makers are only handful and are getting internally stoned by their respective commnuites once they cross certain limit.
Your post was quite good until you wrote that.
Children have also been killed by Qassam missiles over the years. It's not an acurate weapon, but when you launch it in the general direction of cities it could fall anyway - an open field, kindergartens and schools (yesterday it did, actually, straight into a classroom. Fortnunately kids are staying home because of the situation).
I've no doubt we have killed innocent children, but I don't believe we're targetted them (though I'm sure you know differently, as sitting in your US home you appear to know everything regarding the situation). Hamas, meanwhile, hasn't targetted anyone particular in recent years - He just went for everyone. The fact we do not have many dead is DOWN TO PURE LUCK, nothing else. So am I supposed to give them some sort of credit for it? As far as I'm concerned they're murdering bastards who have been going for our kids for eight years and it's the lack of technological abilities (which always improve, mind you) that prevented that!
Although every sensible bloke on here agree Israel have their rights to defend their territory and your recent attacks on the ethical ground, bombing civilians is an act of terror irrespective of whichever side instigates it.
So are you seriously telling me that you guys are justified in killing masses of palestinians because you've suffered casualties from DIFFERENT nations?
When you fight a war, you fight to win in the most unequal lopsided manner possible. Not sure if you are aware of that.
Israel isn't bombing civilians - Hamas are
Civilian deaths are inevitable in any conflict. They are even more likely when active participants in the hostilities purposely seek shelter, refuge and carry out attacks from densely populated civilian centers.
There is a big difference between the intentional targeting of civilian populations, like Dresden, or London and dropping a bomb on a legitimate military target and killing civilians.
It is regrettable but necessary.
I, still, don't understand why the Jewish people wouldn't be happier to move their state to somewhere like Lake Havasu, Arizona.
I'm positive the United States would make an exception for the Jewish people to have their very own Jewish state away from all the turmoil of the middle-east.
Just think of the Mega-Casinos they could build?
Seriously, how could you say no to something this beautiful?
Why not Palestine?