Every team is on the back foot in finding those types of players because they become those types of players due to the culture at Barca. Replicating it is probably unrealisitic in England.
The what we could have done against Barca thread...
- Thread starter RedThaiDevils#7
- Start date
Yeah, I thought we should've gone 3-5-2.
Anyway, I'd rather just forget about it and go to sleep.
Anyway, I'd rather just forget about it and go to sleep.
Another thing that pisses me off about this game is they had a genuine weak link in Mascherano in central defence and we never asked him questions. Did we even get a corner?
3-2-3-2 formation
This would force them to leave 3 men back in defence - we would cede space out wide for control in the centre.
This would force them to leave 3 men back in defence - we would cede space out wide for control in the centre.
I don't think there's much point debating what the line up and formation should have been, we were obviously always going to play the team that has consistently looked strong over the last few months and won us the league. It's not as if chucking in Fletcher for Hernandez and going 4-5-1 was a realistic option having not played that way for ages.
As far as tactics go, I think Sir Alex was spot on. We used a formation that was not new to us but has got us playing great football in the past couple of big games. Our approach to the game was just how I liked it - blitzkrieging them, pressuring them high up the pitch. We played well for a portion of the first half but when Barca got into their rhythm, things got a bit out of hand but we managed to stand our ground to dig in and grind out an equalizer. 1-1 at halftime seem3e to be the perfect opportunity for Sir Alex to make changes to get us playing our football. Valencia looked out of his depth with Abidal keeping him quiet and frustration getting the better of him. Giggs and Carrick did not look capable enough to carry on the second half. Hernandez did not look potent enough to do the job up front. These were the three quintessential issues that we had to address at half time but Sir Alex chose to fix none of them. And that perplexes me because as infamous he is for not changing anything til the 60th minute, he did make changes at half time in Rome.
It still has to be a team effort. We didn't function at the team level. If the entire team isn't on the same page, then against Barca the guys chasing accomplish nothing and look like they are chasing shadows. Pressuring the ball is only half of the game, having other guys moving into positions to capitalize on sloppy passes or to harass whomever is receiving the ball is the other half.
I agree, we press like teams press. We shouldn't be pressing like other teams press, we should be pressing like Barcalona presses because they do it right and comprehensively.
It is a good point, however, the style of pressure football they play doesn't take the technical mastery that Barca has. That is something any club can and should try to emulate if it fits with their overall philosophy.
All it takes is a high level of team understanding and players willing to work hard defensively. I look down the list of players we have and I only see one who can be lackadaisical.
So while we probably won't be able to emulate the sort of short passing possession domination they have mastered, we can make that harder for them by emulating their pressure, then we can turn that into what our hallmark is, knifing counter attacks and wing play.
That, I think, is our best chance at beating them in the future. To emulate their pressure game to give us more time on the ball, or at the very least to reduce their time on the ball. If we can take them out of their comfort zone, half the battle is already won because a team like that doesn't often have to play outside of that comfort zone.
I honestly don't think there is a single formation we could've fielded against that team whilst coming out the other end positively. The whole thing was fecked. You can say all you want about closing down, pressing them and that but, at the end of the day, we needed to keep the ball.
There are no players, looking back, that could've done so in spite of the pressing that Barca maintained throughout the whole game. There's also the fact that they just knackered us out without even breaking a sweat.
That team is amazing, and is going to take some beating.
There are no players, looking back, that could've done so in spite of the pressing that Barca maintained throughout the whole game. There's also the fact that they just knackered us out without even breaking a sweat.
That team is amazing, and is going to take some beating.
We need a player in midfield who can keep the ball under pressure and run things. It's not just that it would help us in terms of possession, but we'd also see our best player with more time on the ball with the ability to hurt teams more. Look what Rooney did with few touches of the ball, he made a goal out of nothing.
I thought we would have pressed Barca a lot more compared to 09.
First 10mins we were ok pretty much similar to 09 then they pretty much had all the play bar Rooneys goal. Second half we should have kept the pressure on them but we didn't.
First 10mins we were ok pretty much similar to 09 then they pretty much had all the play bar Rooneys goal. Second half we should have kept the pressure on them but we didn't.
I think the tactics and the team were spot on fellas. We had them for the first 10-15 min and maybe the last 10 or so. But it is difficult to keep it up. While the muscles are fresh, the pressure on them allowed us to control the midfield, but then..
352, 4411, 451, Fletcher, Anderson or Berbatov, doesn't matter really. Barcelona would still beat us. They are the superior team.
There was a moment where the motherfecker ran all the way down the right and won a corner. Mascherano winning a corner, of all people
The pressure we put them under at the start was great, they were actually losing the ball frequently, which is rare to see. We couldn't keep it up for more than 10/15 minutes though.
Well said. At the moment they're simply better than us, and all the post mortems in the world wont really change the fact. We all knew that if they turned up somewhere close to their best they'd probably be too good for us in a one off game. We're an exceptionally good team, one of the greatest English teams ever, but best for best we're terminally weak in the area Barcelona are strongest. Throwing in an extra man and sacrificing a striker wouldn't have made the slightest bit of difference ultimately. They had 3 or 4 players that were capable of dancing around whoever was marking them and making a mockery of any defensive shape we faced them with.
Probably not. In that system Anderson would have had to perform the Rooney role and sat on Busquets. I adore Anderson but what possibly makes you think he'd have performed the role better than Rooney? Would Carrick and an underweight semi-fit Fletcher have miraculously dominated Xavi and Iniesta whilst effortlessly finding time to pick up Messi when he's dropping deep? I dont see it, I really don't. We effectively ended up playing a 4-5-1 anyway as Rooney dropped so deep, but they won all the crucial individual battles. I don't see any way we could have lined up that would have stopped this happening.
Don't know what we could have done...but I am very disappointed that Arsenal looked more in the game in their two matches than we did at any point against Barca in the two finals we've played them in.
Exactly. Save for maybe Evra as a team we didn't play shit. Our best just wasn't any where near them.
Chelsea, Inter and Real too.
Barcelona are exceptional but we again didn't pose as strong a challenge as we could have done.
I'm sensing a trend here...
all those teams had/have dynamic midfield players.
Ahh well...what's done is done.
To play against a superior team, only a good pressing side + a team with the players and pace to change things from the wingers were the options.
I think SAF has got this wrong 2 times now... We can't play strength to strength with a team with that MF...
We were chasing shadows... We have to accept that sometimes counter attacking style against Barca isn't a bad choice...
The only tactic that will work would be a 4-1-4-1 ( 4-5-1 ) but with no No.10 player as we should use that player to Mark Messi at all costs.
Also, we need more mobile CM's, getting more stuck in and constantly marking each players movements...
Barca aren't a threat on the wings... Let their Fullbacks attack... But FFS, mark each player after they release the ball...
I watched this again and again and every time a Barca player passes back, they will run forward and will find free space to receive a pass and no United player picked them up..
The CB's did not need to stay static at the back... They had to continue to harrass them...
Zonal Marking which Carrick tried and didn't get stuck in against Barca is suicide... This is now proven that it wasn't because he was off-form, his style doesn't suit playing against Barca to me.
I think SAF has got this wrong 2 times now... We can't play strength to strength with a team with that MF...
We were chasing shadows... We have to accept that sometimes counter attacking style against Barca isn't a bad choice...
The only tactic that will work would be a 4-1-4-1 ( 4-5-1 ) but with no No.10 player as we should use that player to Mark Messi at all costs.
Also, we need more mobile CM's, getting more stuck in and constantly marking each players movements...
Barca aren't a threat on the wings... Let their Fullbacks attack... But FFS, mark each player after they release the ball...
I watched this again and again and every time a Barca player passes back, they will run forward and will find free space to receive a pass and no United player picked them up..
The CB's did not need to stay static at the back... They had to continue to harrass them...
Zonal Marking which Carrick tried and didn't get stuck in against Barca is suicide... This is now proven that it wasn't because he was off-form, his style doesn't suit playing against Barca to me.
To face survive a Barca on slaught with an inferior side you need a 3rd center back DM with real tenacity. A clone of Makelele.
I always thought we could compete only if we clone Messi and play him on our shirt. We would easily open Barca defences, well any defences, with a Messi on our side.
Similar to Pepe's role in RM against them ?
Would you rather have him man-mark Messi or would you rather like him to defend zonal like what Carrick did ?
Interested in your views.
Pepe did a similar job with his man making of Messi.
But when I refer to a Makaelel clone I'm talking no man marking. A player like Makelele stayed in a zone between the two center backs and just infront of them. As a result opponents couldn't thread anything through his back four as a result and opposing players in the hole never got time and space to operate infront of and around the 18 yard box. Such a player would make it really hard for Barcleona to expoit the are of the pitch in which they are most dangerous and allow the rest of the players infront of him to attempt to press them much higher up the pitch. Lass did what I'm talking about very well in the return leg vs Barca at the Nou Camp.
The only other way is to have players with the stamina and energy of Essien, Ballack , and Lampard. Which Chelsea used to stiffle Barcelona as Ovrebo robbed them.
I thought the only thing we got wrong was the mobility of Carrick and the fact that he didn't get stuck in enough.
Also, Park - Giggsy had an off day too imo... Park got as stuck in as much as possible but Messi just drifts away...
Their players rotate a lot during the game but if it were to man mark one person, I think you'd have to be as tight as possible to Messi.
I think we were unlucky that Fletcher caught a virus, he could have been our key man if he were fit... Not that he protects the back line as well as a Makelele but he certainly
won't stand still and watch the Barca players walk pass our MF.
Also, Park - Giggsy had an off day too imo... Park got as stuck in as much as possible but Messi just drifts away...
Their players rotate a lot during the game but if it were to man mark one person, I think you'd have to be as tight as possible to Messi.
I think we were unlucky that Fletcher caught a virus, he could have been our key man if he were fit... Not that he protects the back line as well as a Makelele but he certainly
won't stand still and watch the Barca players walk pass our MF.
In reference to the above about Inter etc. They were 2 legged affairs which is currently a team's best chance and I'd add that you need a 2 goal cushion as Inter did in last year's semi....but they did get lucky,something that seems to be overlooked
just an aside; I've noticed Park tends to fade a bit, as a game goes on. Can only assume he burns himself out.
lazy fecker
lazy fecker
Although I agree with this I see, more often than not, they STILL bring players into that area and crowd it. When the opposition notice players in that area, they shrink their back four and suddenly you have Alves bursting down and Xavi pinging him with a diagonal pass behind them.
Our one big advantage over them is flexibility of formation and personnel within the squad. We got through to HT level and could have change to 4-3-3 with Rooney, hernandez and nani. Brought Anderson on for giggs or park.
Playing the same as the first half was mistake as they just carried on where they left off.
Playing the same as the first half was mistake as they just carried on where they left off.
They always carry on where they left off. Even when they are a goal behind. Regardless of how we line up, they will dominate possession and dictate the tempo. We don't have any advantage over that.
The formation isnt the answer to Barca. Barca play total football, they are all happy to have the ball, are all beautifully skilled and can all pass accurately. They play a short passing game with changes in tempo as they get near to the box. the defend in numbers and press as soon as they lose the ball. they are effective at this because their short passing game has them close to the ball in numbers. they are supremely fit and work hard as a team. Formations wont combat this. Smart tactics will. I dont have the answer but my thinking runs along the lines of frequently switching play from one side to the other when possession is won to combat the initial rush of numbers on the ball winner. retaining possession is vital, do what they did to us. Fergie at one point was berating the players for not getting wide early enough. Width and possession might be the antidote to Barca's intense quick pressing when they lose the ball. So possession, switch play and use the width to help retain possession.
Glad you've not got SAFs job.
They were on fire and deserved the win but as the goal showed they are not invincible.
Changing tactics at half time, giving us a fresh pair of legs in the middle and an extra player would have altered the pattern whether it would have been enough we will never know.
Nani is a massive threat and is one player who can run with the ball like all there attackers.
I'd have played this:
----------------VDS
Fabio----Ferdinand-Vidic----Evra
---------Carrick---Anderson-----
Nani------Rooney-----Giggs
-----------Chicharito
Nani as the outball and Hernadez occupying their centre halves - Giggs tucked in and making up the third man in midfield with Rooney marking Biscuits. Anderson tight to Messi
Valencia as an impact sub and Berbatov on the bench to come on if we've scored
----------------VDS
Fabio----Ferdinand-Vidic----Evra
---------Carrick---Anderson-----
Nani------Rooney-----Giggs
-----------Chicharito
Nani as the outball and Hernadez occupying their centre halves - Giggs tucked in and making up the third man in midfield with Rooney marking Biscuits. Anderson tight to Messi
Valencia as an impact sub and Berbatov on the bench to come on if we've scored
Nothing... your question is "how can you beat the best"? Maybe with luck I should say.
The only way to beat them is to make sure you have the ball more then they do and you play inside their half. Fire with fire. We just don't have midfielders at the moment who are better at keeping the ball than Xavi & Iniesta.
There is no better midfield two. You play fire with water, we should have compressed the middle of the pitch but instead we had a huge gap between midfield and defence. That is the worst thing you can do when playing a 433/460 that barca play.
The biggest problem we had all night was the gap between midfield and defence.
Vidic tried to rush forward and succeeded at times but the tactic should have been a small gap between the two lines of four with Rooney dropping in on Busquets, no easy feat when you have Alves overlapping too but him on the touchline crossing in is much more preferable to massive space at the edge of the box for long range shots peppering van der sar with their quality when given time.
No shame or no complaints when playing against a team this good and also on fire but there was ways to make it more difficult than we did.
So you basically say it's impossible?
Nothing to do with Busquets mate, trust me... It was Messi that dropped deep and set up the plays which cost us...
Messi wasn't playing as a CF... He was clearly given a free role and was allowed to wonder all he liked, the problem was Messi went and played deep, went left went right and tried to find the space to receive the ball... Rio-Vidic were played Zonal as there was no way in hell they'd break the line in the back four and we didn't have enough people to pick up Xavi-Iniesta-Messi... They'd just give a back pass and run to find space with the player who marked Xavi pressuring the person who received the ball but no one to mark Messi later...
It was an easy give and go and they just found space... And with the close control Messi has got... No way in hell were our CB's going to stop him without creating a foul.
Top priority next time is to have someone always pick up Messi in Barca's attack, stop him from running and making the defense back peddle and finally we should have more movement and players confident enough to keep the ball and maybe attempt a dribble... Not lose possession in those spots in which Valencia/Evra were losing it that night.
We had to make use of the ball better and Mark Messi better... I'm sure SAF is aware of the tactic now is its the same one that was used in 09 which caused our downfall. Messi as CF is clearly the one thing we didn't pick up that time and it happened again.