Nucks
RT History Department
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- Sep 2, 2007
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Learn how to properly pressure the ball.
Thats not true. You'd think we were a million miles away from their level. Going against Barcelona 4-4-2 is just suicide, I dont care if you give me the two best centre midfielders of all time, and I still havent read a reasonable suggestion why we played 2 up top.Matters not how much money we or anybody spend. There are absolutely no players available to give this side a game at present. Basically someone has to break up the Barca team, or poach their management.
so we just give up?Matters not how much money we or anybody spend. There are absolutely no players available to give this side a game at present. Basically someone has to break up the Barca team, or poach their management.
It means you have a chance of holding out against them. Hold out for 60-70 minutes, they get frustrated, tire a bit (obviously so do you, you still need a bit of luck), and something might happen. There's no other way to beat them.If you don't know how to use the ball accurately under pressure, what good is being able to put 11 men behind the ball...
Are Snide and Swine even available? Don't forget we are the Champions of England and were unbeaten in the Champions league till tonight. They are simply too good at present, and unless you take 3 players out of the team no team stands a chance.so we just give up?
no mate, if we pulled the finger out, brought in schweini an sneijder to partner carrick in a midfield 3, bring back ronnie......we would have a first XI that maybe would only lose by 1 goal...but not get HUMILIATED like we just saw.
Let's try to improve so we atleast deserve to be on the same pitch as them.
Seemed a bit odd - Rooney looked as if he was trying to drop into a 451 while Ferguson was bollocking him and telling him to play high.It means you have a chance of holding out against them. Hold out for 60-70 minutes, they get frustrated, tire a bit (obviously so do you, you still need a bit of luck), and something might happen. There's no other way to beat them.
Yeah that was my reading too. Fergie's plan seemed to be to ride our luck and hope to isolate their centre-halves against Rooney and Hernandez on the rare occasions we got the ball.Seemed a bit odd - Rooney looked as if he was trying to drop into a 451 while Ferguson was bollocking him and telling him to play high.
Sorry, but if that's your thinking going into a CL final, then it's long lost. The way to play Barca, as United, should be to play to your strengths, which are those we display in the premier league - attacking the opposition. We played tonight exactly as we did 2 years ago. Ferguson didn't learn evidently.It means you have a chance of holding out against them. Hold out for 60-70 minutes, they get frustrated, tire a bit (obviously so do you, you still need a bit of luck), and something might happen. There's no other way to beat them.
Whether we use 4-4-2 or 4-5-1 matters little if Messi drops into midfield so they have an extra man. For at least some of this match, Rooney did mark Busquets. The problem was Iniesta, Xavi and Messi against Giggs and Carrick in the centre. If Park moved across to help, then Alves bombed down the right and opened us up that way.Thats not true. You'd think we were a million miles away from their level. Going against Barcelona 4-4-2 is just suicide, I dont care if you give me the two best centre midfielders of all time, and I still havent read a reasonable suggestion why we played 2 up top.
The truth is, we're not good enough to play to our strengths against Barca i.e two up top. This game had 4-5-1 written all over it to match them. Barcelona are not unbeatable. If it meant playing a slightly more cautious team, then so be it. Its not like we didnt do in 2008 at the Nou Camp.
I think we could get both, it would be costly.Are Snide and Swine even available? Don't forget we are the Champions of England and were unbeaten in the Champions league till tonight. They are simply too good at present, and unless you take 3 players out of the team no team stands a chance.
Plech, the teams that have had success against Barca.. were also capable of holding abit of possession against them. The likes of Chelsea, Inter and ourselves in '08.. we paid Barca respect and yet in spells we could match them in possession.It means you have a chance of holding out against them. Hold out for 60-70 minutes, they get frustrated, tire a bit (obviously so do you, you still need a bit of luck), and something might happen. There's no other way to beat them.
Well we tried to play to our strengths - we played two up top, and the very attack-minded Giggs in midfield - and got throughly schooled.Sorry, but if that's your thinking going into a CL final, then it's long lost. The way to play Barca, as United, should be to play to your strengths, which are those we display in the premier league - attacking the opposition. We played tonight exactly as we did 2 years ago. Ferguson didn't learn evidently.
Chelsea didn't really keep the ball, and Inter spent most of the time running round like maniacs launching themselves in front of them. 3 in the middle was our best, and virtually only, chance.Plech, the teams that have had success against Barca.. were also capable of holding abit of possession against them. The likes of Chelsea, Inter and ourselves in '08.. we paid Barca respect and yet in spells we could match them in possession.
This current side, no matter which way we shaped up.. there just wasn't enough talent in this side to make a fist of it. Too many weaknesses, 451, 433, 442.. whichever, it would've ended in heartbreak. This Barca side has not lost a single game this season with a full strength side, there have always been mitigating circumstances.. thats just how good they are. They've gone up a level since 08/09.
All our outfield players need to be comfortable on the ball to stand a chance, Ferdinand and Vidic were too negative on the ball, the midfield couldn't turn under pressure and locate forward options, Valencia was out of his depth and predictable, Parks touch was dodgy, bless his heart he tried his bollocks off though.. only Rooney looked like he was worthy of sharing the pitch with Barca tonight.
This is the key point.I don't think Barca are unbeatable. Sure if we play them 10 times they might win 8 times. But based on tonight they'd win all 10.
Excellent post.Plech, the teams that have had success against Barca.. were also capable of holding abit of possession against them. The likes of Chelsea, Inter and ourselves in '08.. we paid Barca respect and yet in spells we could match them in possession.
This current side, no matter which way we shaped up.. there just wasn't enough talent in this side to make a fist of it. Too many weaknesses, 451, 433, 442.. whichever, it would've ended in heartbreak. This Barca side has not lost a single game this season with a full strength side, there have always been mitigating circumstances.. thats just how good they are. They've gone up a level since 08/09.
All our outfield players need to be comfortable on the ball to stand a chance, Ferdinand and Vidic were too negative on the ball, the midfield couldn't turn under pressure and locate forward options, Valencia was out of his depth and predictable, Parks touch was dodgy, bless his heart he tried his bollocks off though.. only Rooney looked like he was worthy of sharing the pitch with Barca tonight.
We don't have the same type of personnel in midfield to play such a game.Chelsea didn't really keep the ball, and Inter spent most of the time running round like maniacs launching themselves in front of them. 3 in the middle was our best, and virtually only, chance.
Drogba, holds the ball well under pressure, likes of Anelka and Malouda do that pretty well too. Likes of Mikel and Essien, are sharper in tight spaces and more confident on the ball than Carrick when put under pressure.Chelsea didn't really keep the ball, and Inter spent most of the time running round like maniacs launching themselves in front of them. 3 in the middle was our best, and virtually only, chance.
Forgot to include Fabio, was excellent. Mentally and technically, he's already a United player. Thats the sort of ability we need across the pitch.Excellent post.
At this level, a lot of our players just don't have the technical ability or the speed of thought to cope with Barca's pressing game. Rio, Vidic, Park, Valencia, Hernandez, Carrick, even Evra looked woeful. Giggs has the touch but didn't appear to work hard enough for the cause (not that surprising given his age). These are all brilliant players yet the challenge was too much for them.
It was interesting that Fabio looked fairly comfortable relative to the rest of the side; perhaps not quite good enough but promising for someone with so little experience.
I'm not talking about our passing around sides or theirs. I am talking about our pressuring the ball versus theirs. I'd diagram the problem if I had a neat little application to do it.Well we tried to play to our strengths - we played two up top, and the very attack-minded Giggs in midfield - and got throughly schooled.
They're too good, the only chance is to park the bus. I hate seeing United play that way but it was the only thing to do.
Chelsea didn't really keep the ball, and Inter spent most of the time running round like maniacs launching themselves in front of them. 3 in the middle was our best, and virtually only, chance.
Agree with your last paragraph.
This is the key point.
Don't agree with your other stuff about angles, mind. We had two CMs, one of whom was Ryan Giggs, against not only 3 CMs, but the best in the business at passing around sides.
Well that's all I'm saying. I'm the first to admit we don't have the ideal players for that set-up, and that we'd still have been the most likely side to lose. But against a superior side you have a better chance in a tight game than an open one.The game would've been closer I agree...
Dunno, I think we pressed like teams press... there's really not that much to pressing. Every side that play Barcelona get passed round. But they find it a lot easier against a two-man midfield with Ryan Giggs in it than against three.I'm not talking about our passing around sides or theirs. I am talking about our pressuring the ball versus theirs. I'd diagram the problem if I had a neat little application to do it.
Essentially, we chased the ball, we didn't play the players or the passes. Barca played the players and the passes.
If we had Park and Giggs pressuring, or Giggs and Evra or whomever was up on the ball, both guys chased the ball. Xavi would have the ball, both players would chase down Xavi who would would play a tidy little pass to Messi or Iniesta or whomever that had moved into space.
What they did against us was completely different. One man would pressure the ball, let's take Carrick for example. Carrick is on the ball, one man would pressure Carrick, everyone else for Barca who was around the ball, did not close down Carrick, they moved to cut off Giggs, cut off Valencia, cut off Evra, cut off Rooney. Simply put, they closed down the passing lanes, resulting in Carrick having to outlet back to Vidic or Rio, who then faced the same problem.
This was exasperated by the fact they were closing down the passing lanes in this manner, which meant that wherever the ball went they had someone on us within a matter of seconds, and because this pressure was constant all over the pitch if we had one loose touch Barca gobbled up the ball.
It is quite astonishing to see Barca play what is essentially a basketball full court press.
Simply put our pressure was wrong, we did it wrong. So yes, while it works against clubs who can't play quick one or two touch football, it won't work well against clubs that can. This isn't a slight about the individual players, it is more the team disposition. Proper pressing in football has to be a team effort. We had no team effort. When one man pressures the ball, the entire team needs to shift and react accordingly to ensure that any release pass is contested immediately.
He wasn't on his own, he had Rooney up with him. He was just offside.I'm sure I saw more than two players in our midfield though. It's not table football, Plech. Was a bit pointless having Chico upfront on his own though. He should've been taken off at half time...and replaced with Berbatov.
I'm not having that Plech, I'm watching clips of the game....and we virtually had two banks of four in the second half. Park, Giggs, Rooney and Carrick were in midfield with Valencia helping out in wide areas. Also, Chico was virtually isolated because Rooney kept on dropping deep.He wasn't on his own, he had Rooney up with him. He was just offside.
I know it's not table football, but when you have two up top you're necessarily weaker elsewhere. Park had to cover wide as well as helping out in midfield, same with Valencia. Basically they had the ball the whole time and were able to drag our players all over the shop.
I love 4-4-2 but when you're up against the best, something has to give.
We should have tried something. That would have been pretty radical, but who knows? We just seemed to roll up, hoping that their superiority somehow wouldn't show.I'm going to post this again.
I reckon we should have man marked Messi (much like Pepe) using one of the twins.
He did. I watched it with MikeUpNorth and he has some kind of sympathetic telepathy with Park. He was very optimistic early on, but on about 60 minutes he started panting and looked like he was going to faint. He also said something incomprehensible at one point - I smiled and nodded, but I've just looked it up and it was 'mummy says bedtime' in Korean.Park looked knackered after 60 Minutes.
Er, yeah... that's 4-4-2 SpoonsI'm not having that Plech, I'm watching clips of the game....and we virtually had two banks of four in the second half.
Second half Rooney went to the left. But before that he was arguing with Fergie and I'm pretty sure he was asking to drop off with Fergie saying no, stick to the plan and stay high.Park, Giggs, Rooney and Carrick were in midfield with Valencia helping out in wide areas. Also, Chico was virtually isolated because Rooney kept on dropping deep.
think they'd have shat on us regardlessWe should have put laxatives in their lucozade bottles.
think they'd have shat on us regardless
Point being we didn't just have Carrick and Giggs in the centre of midfield. Actually you could be right, that said Valencia made up a five. I think Rooney was actually playing deep....which didn't please Fergie rather than asking to drop off. Let's be honest, no matter how we'd have set up....the end result would've still been a loss.We should have tried something. That would have been pretty radical, but who knows? We just seemed to roll up, hoping that their superiority somehow wouldn't show.
He did. I watched it with MikeUpNorth and he has some kind of sympathetic telepathy with Park. He was very optimistic early on, but on about 60 minutes he started panting and looked like he was going to faint. He also said something incomprehensible at one point - I smiled and nodded, but I've just looked it up and it was 'mummy says bedtime' in Korean.
Er, yeah... that's 4-4-2 Spoons
Second half Rooney went to the left. But before that he was arguing with Fergie and I'm pretty sure he was asking to drop off with Fergie saying no, stick to the plan and stay high.
Charlie Adam?With us pointing fingers in various directions I thought this is a very good point from Pep is very apt.
''If you play this football (like Barcelona) you need these players. At another club maybe I would have a problem to find these kind of players.''