Mbappe vs Rashford - Taking the L from Lukaku

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cyberman

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Hammondo said:
This happens often though, with many united or ex united players. Ignoring everything they do, if they get a goal they are amazing.
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It was a great goal and was a game winner. Thats what being a striker is all about.
 

tomaldinho1

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Dancfc said:
But there's no real evidence to suggest Messi would have struggled, quite the opposite infact.

Firstly similar type of players went to the PL and smashed it and each and every one of them were inferior to Messi by a distance (stating the obvious). David Silva, Juan Mata and Sergio Aguero the prime examples. And not only that he has in general destroyed the PL sides he faced in the CL. I mean West Brom, Stoke and the like succeeding where United, Arsenal, City, Chelsea (he may have took a while to score past us but he ripped us apart in some of games prior to that despite not scoring), Spurs and Liverpool have all failed? I guess everything's possible but it's highly unlikely!
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If players were ageless that point would be valid. In reality, Silva was given a 1 year extension then moved on, Aguero has been great but is also coming towards the end of his time at City and Mata is also in the twilight of his career. Clearly Messi is a better player than all of them but he is still human and has still aged like everyone else. The question isn't if Messi came here when Silva (24), Aguero (23) or Mata (23) did would he be successful because of course he would, it's whether at 33 he could come and have the impact people will expect him to. Personally, it's logical to think that the combination of his physical attributes declining alongside moving to a faster, less technical and more physical league would not be so straight forward. If he joined City he'd do well for sure but the days of his 50 goal season happened nearly a decade ago.
 

Hammondo

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cyberman said:
It was a great goal and was a game winner. Thats what being a striker is all about.
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It was a good goal. Doesn't change what I said. There are many strikers who would have scored from some of our other positions.
 

cyberman

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Hammondo said:
It was a good goal. Doesn't change what I said. There are many strikers who would have scored from some of our other positions.
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There are few who have the pace to even get into those positions.
He rinsed their LB, he has PTSD as we speak
 

Hammondo

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cyberman said:
There are few who have the pace to even get into those positions.
He rinsed their LB, he has PTSD as we speak
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His speed is by far his best attribute, he's rapid. There are more situations where better passing, smarter movement, and better decision making is more important.
 

cyberman

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Hammondo said:
His speed is by far his best attribute, he's rapid. There are more situations where better passing, smarter movement, and better decision making is more important.
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I disagree. Its clear as day top side havent got an answer for Marcus. I wouldn't change how he approaches the game at all. A quick search shows he has 40 goal contributions in 51 games and he was out scoring Liverpools front 3 until well after he was injured last season.
I just think we watch our players too closely. Its the same with the desensitisation to Bruno from some on here with claims he doesn't suit our midfield etc. Its beyond ridiculous.
Just because they arent the type of players certain fans think they should be doesnt change the qualities they have.
 

Decomposing In Paris

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The difference isn’t as big as some people would have you believe. No matter how much so many of our fans want to tear them down, have 3 really exciting young forwards. Mbappe is incredible too, and of the 4 of them he’s had the most impact in his career so far. Hopefully our 3 can continue to step up the levels.
 

Hammondo

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cyberman said:
I disagree. Its clear as day top side havent got an answer for Marcus. I wouldn't change how he approaches the game at all. A quick search shows he has 40 goal contributions in 51 games and he was out scoring Liverpools front 3 until well after he was injured last season.
I just think we watch our players too closely. Its the same with the desensitisation to Bruno from some on here with claims he doesn't suit our midfield etc. Its beyond ridiculous.
Just because they arent the type of players certain fans think they should be doesnt change the qualities they have.
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That seems like nonsense to me, everyone has praised Bruno since he joined. I've never seen him not included in fans starting 11.

I'm not sure where you get your goal record from.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Rashford

46 goals in 146 games in the league.
 

Dancfc

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tomaldinho1 said:
If players were ageless that point would be valid. In reality, Silva was given a 1 year extension then moved on, Aguero has been great but is also coming towards the end of his time at City and Mata is also in the twilight of his career. Clearly Messi is a better player than all of them but he is still human and has still aged like everyone else. The question isn't if Messi came here when Silva (24), Aguero (23) or Mata (23) did would he be successful because of course he would, it's whether at 33 he could come and have the impact people will expect him to. Personally, it's logical to think that the combination of his physical attributes declining alongside moving to a faster, less technical and more physical league would not be so straight forward. If he joined City he'd do well for sure but the days of his 50 goal season happened nearly a decade ago.
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Yeah I agree with that it's his prime self I was arguing. I've genuinely argued against people who would have thought he could have come to England at 25 and flopped. He was that good back then he would have won any of the big six the title around that time in my opinion, even Moyes' United.

I do agree with your overall assesment, reading between the lines you appear to be saying if he joins now he will be good for general standards but relietevely meh when scaled for comparison to his? Defiently agree with that and it was partly why I was glad he didn't come, because those I mentioned in my first paragraph would have used it as a blueprint to say "see I told you so".
 
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1966

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Dancfc said:
Yeah I agree with that it's his prime self I was arguing. I've genuinely argued against people who would have thought he could have come to England at 25 and flopped. He was that good back then he would have won any of the big six the title around that time in my opinion, even Moyes' United.

I do agree with your overall assesment, reading between the lines you appear to be saying if he joins now he will be good for general standards but relietevely meh when scaled for comparison to his? Defiently agree with that and it was partly why I was glad he didn't come, because those I mentioned in my first paragraph would have used it as a blueprint to say "see I told you so".
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Oof. I agree with almost all of this except that I don't think any one player can win the PL. By which I mean that I wouldn't have been surprised if Messi had joined one of the non-favourite top 6 clubs and still not immediately won the league with them.

I don't like PL exceptionalism but I don't think it's at all unreasonable to describe it as the most competitive elite league (on average, over time), which renders it a lot less likely for a single player to be able to make the difference as opposed to, say, Barca v Real.
 

owlo

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Mbappe has far better close control and decision making.

Rashford is an unrefined talent, as good as he is right now, you feel he could be so much better. He’s young and has the raw tools, if he clicks at 25 or so, he could be just as good.

wouldnt gamble on it though,
 

Hammondo

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Redplane said:
Can Mbappe do it on a spectator free rainy night at Fullham?
Nope he couldn't. There's your answer. Rashers would tear that league a new one.
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I was convinced you were joking but by the end I wasn't sure.
 

Womp

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ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
I think it’s far more to do with the level of the league he’s playing in. The PL is far more competitive. It’s too easy for him in most games, and so he doesn’t have to push himself.
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That is a possibility, especially since they consistently underperform in Europe as a collective. If the current trajectory continues, I wouldn't be surprised to see Rashford overtake Mbappe, as crazy as that sounds. Mbappe seems to be the same player he was when he broke out at Monaco, if not, worse. Whereas Rashford, despite imo being less of a natural footballer than Mbappe, is quite clearly working on and improving his game, year on year.

Even Neymar, despite still being brilliant, doesn't look like he gives a shite as much as he did at Barcelona. Statistically, he's still a phenomenon, but there's just something missing that I feel like he had at Barca.
 

Harry190

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Tell you what, I think Mbappe has hit a plateau for the past year or so. Might actually have been better 2 years ago.

Haaland is better than both as of right now.
 

Reapersoul20

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People saying Rashfords only attribute is his speed are just...do you watch football?

When he tried to pass it in to Martial in the box though when we were on the break vs PSG - that was fecking dumb. I'll give you that.

I'd say Greenwood is faster than him, is he?
 

Robbie Boy

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The holy trinity 68 said:
Mbappe’s has stagnated.
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I certainly don't watch enough of him to agree or disagree with your assertion. What I do know is that Salah looks a shadow of the player he was and he has certainly regressed. His numbers will mask his wasteful sloopy performances, though.
 

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Tony247 said:
Rashford vs Mbappe:
Speed = both
Workrate = Rashford
High stake match game raiser = rashford
Footballing skill = Mbappe
Footballing IQ = Mbappe
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The excitement on here as has been palpable since the game, which is fare enough, but things like the above bolded, have to be interjected lest they become legion. One of these players has scored in a World Cup Final as a teenager.

There is no higher stake in football than that.

Of course, that is not infinite credit in the bank, but Mbappe is held to an entirely different stratosphere of scrutiny to Rashford, before, during and after any game they play.

Until Rashford is rated in the same tier and has the same kind of pressure on him to deliver, he can never be measured against someone who is expected to carry his team in tandem with the most expensive player in the world.

Mbappe was also a threat for the majority of the game. Sterling work from Tuanzebe, Wan Bissaka, De Gea and occasionally both Fred and McTominay does not change that fact.

Rashford has a way to go before he's seen as the talismann others look to to deliver all-season long and irrespective of anything going on around him.
 

BalanceUnAutreJoint

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Tony247 said:
Rashford vs Mbappe:
Speed = both
Workrate = Rashford
High stake match game raiser = rashford
Footballing skill = Mbappe
Footballing IQ = Mbappe
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Mbappe's off the ball game is lightyears and I mean lightyears lightyears ahead of Rashford's.
He is THE best attacking player in the world off the ball.
 

VBI

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I don't this this debate is as unreasonable as some have suggested. Yes Mbappe is "better" as the current "future generational talent" talked about, but is he any better now than he was at Monaco? Rashford is playing in a much better league for a vastly bigger club, which carries much more pressure, and makes it harder to win trophies and pad stats. Mbappe, like Neymar will also need to for his own mission, will need to go to either England or Spain if he wants to fully develop and become the star everyone expects.
 

Dancfc

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VBI said:
I don't this this debate is as unreasonable as some have suggested. Yes Mbappe is "better" as the current "future generational talent" talked about, but is he any better now than he was at Monaco? Rashford is playing in a much better league for a vastly bigger club, which carries much more pressure, and makes it harder to win trophies and pad stats. Mbappe, like Neymar will also need to for his own mission, will need to go to either England or Spain if he wants to fully develop and become the star everyone expects.
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Potentially not I'm not really sure not being better than he was at Monaco is a fair metric to use against him (maybe in the sense of him being the heir to Messi/CR7 stakes, but not in general) he was the best teenage player since Rooney and Messi (who didn't get to the godlike tier he's in until his 20s), if not R9.

Also I know it's not all about stats but In the previous two season's he's scored more goals than games played in the league, that's a ridiculous record French league or not and let's not forget he performed in the biggest football event of all.

Rashford's made major improvements to his game in the last year or so which putting my England hat on has pleasently surprised me but Mbappe is on another planet to any other young player.
 

roonster09

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BalanceUnAutreJoint said:
Mbappe's off the ball game is lightyears and I mean lightyears lightyears ahead of Rashford's.
He is THE best attacking player in the world off the ball.
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Yeah, him and Haaland are just brilliant at reading the game and making the runs. Not sure if I rate Mbappe or Haaland as #1 when it comes to movement off the ball.
 

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SAFMUTD said:
Exactly, all around he feck up 3 BIG chances, specially the 2 vs 1. If he hadnt got the late goal we would be killing him and the forum would be about bursting his bubble rather than him being better than Mbappe.
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On the other hand, Mbappe was clean on goal twice only to lose both foot races to Tuanzebe. So one might argue that he also spoiled two great chances.
 

Bebestation

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Rossa said:
On the other hand, Mbappe was clean on goal twice only to lose both foot races to Tuanzebe. So one might argue that he also spoiled two great chances.
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And that chance right in front of degea that de gea just bent down and saved.
 

Rossa

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Reapersoul20 said:
People saying Rashfords only attribute is his speed are just...do you watch football?

When he tried to pass it in to Martial in the box though when we were on the break vs PSG - that was fecking dumb. I'll give you that.

I'd say Greenwood is faster than him, is he?
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Greenwood faster than Rashford? If there is one thing Greenwood arguably lacks compared to our other attackers, it would be speed. James < Rashford < Martial < Greenwood in terms of speed. Incidentally it is completely the opposite in terms of finishing.
 

SAFMUTD

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Rossa said:
On the other hand, Mbappe was clean on goal twice only to lose both foot races to Tuanzebe. So one might argue that he also spoiled two great chances.
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I agree Mbappe didnt had a great match, but my point was about how we exagerate on our players, theyre either world class or championship level according to the caf.
 

Reapersoul20

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Rossa

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Reapersoul20 said:
That isn't true, just so you know. https://www.manutd.com/en/news/detail/opta-data-reveals-fastest-man-utd-player-in-premier-league-season-so-far#:~:text=IT'S GOLD FOR GREENWOOD,speed of 37.60 km/h.
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And Fred was the second quickest... do you really think those two players are the fastest in the club? Stats are fine, but my eyes tell me this isn’t so. Hearing what managers, players etc say, it also isn’t so. Giggs said James is the fastest player he has ever seen. I think he knows a little about it. Greenwood is ok and seems to have improved, but it’s not his greatest asset.
 

BalanceUnAutreJoint

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Rossa said:
And Fred was the second quickest... do you really think those two players are the fastest in the club? Stats are fine, but my eyes tell me this isn’t so. Hearing what managers, players etc say, it also isn’t so. Giggs said James is the fastest player he has ever seen. I think he knows a little about it. Greenwood is ok and seems to have improved, but it’s not his greatest asset.
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Top speed isn't that relevant, I agree with you here.
It's acceleration that matters the most and Rashford has Greenwood beat in this aspect.
 
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