Close your eyes.
As Rugby refuses to take the knee, is it time the Premier League stopped too?
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The quotes from Les Ferdinand suggest a frustration with the dilution of the message behind taking the knee. It's more to do with wanting football to not stop at kneeling but to go further, same with the media and anyone else associating themselves with 'the message'. That's a legit concern, but don't confuse that with him taking a passionate stand against it like those morons who do so for reasons that are a lot of words that ultimately mean nothing.
I agree with your sentiment that people should not be pigeon holed so easily, but this rarely happens. The obtuse and/or racists usually have a track record of being obtuse and/or racist.
It's lost its edge and feels like the action of people who have no real solution to put on the table (the FA is trying though). Like people feel guilty (FA) so they just carry on with it.
Just popped in to say...this is complete and utter shite.At the weekend the Irish and Scottish Rugby teams refused to take the Knee for BLM.
Surely this cringe show should now end and the silliness of millionaire footballers taking the knee before an empty stadium every week should stop.
Whilst I have sympathies with the problems in the United States I fail to see how millionaire footballers bending the knee each week does anything to help those in the States and certainly is something we have to worry about in the UK.
No matter what your view, BLM is a political Movement, I much prefer we aim to make all lives better no matter, and one thing that Rashford has highlighted in the UK is the divide between the haves and have nots regardless of colour.
I honestly believe this Premier League Wokeness needs to stop, and I fully support the Rugby Teams in taking a stand on this.
https://www.irishpost.com/news/enti...e-before-six-nations-tie-against-wales-203307
Rugby is a Tory sport so I am not surprised they don't see an issue with racial discrimination.
There's no fix for that.
But again, still too vague. An 'ism' is a set of items that gel into a broader definition.
One cannot look at the kneeling without thinking of where it came from. It was first a Kapernick thing, to supposedly complain about police brutality, which in itself, is a completely different matter.
Then the big companies, Nike notably, started coopting it, sensing that there was money to be made and bastardizing it.
Now people are telling us the meaning has changed. Therefore, it is malleable and that which is malleable follows the same principle that what which is everything is also nothing.
They're kneeling, as encouraged by the Premier League yet the Premier League hasn't done much or anything at all to improve things in matters of racism or perceptions of racism, so what else is it but a symbolic sign bereft of any true meaning.
It's a rote exercise. Once it has been banalized, it loses its importance.
This why symbolism is of very little use unless acts back them.
I actually feel it's the opposite. If they stop now, then it would feel like yet another passing fad. I don't know when it should stop, but the best outcome would be to transition or replace with something else. The gesture has raised awareness, but hardly anything has changed, so this is just the beginning.
You are complicating this for no good reason, and seem happy to criticize while unwilling to look into this properly. That's not the rationality that you're priding yourself for. But OK, some background then. The EPL made clear that they want to disconnect themselves from previous history, to make sure any issue people perceive there doesn't cloud its own intentions (source):
And as for its goal:
Obviously, taking a knee will not eliminate racism in any kind of way, but it can contribute by raising awareness. The more people there are that think and have conversations about racism, the more they may do about it. You may discredit that idea, but a lot of racism is unconscious, i.e., people perform racist acts without being aware of them. Fixing that requires awareness - and there have been multiple people commenting in this thread how they have noticed that awareness has indeed increased in their own social circles through this campaign. It won't convert the extremists, but again, this isn't the whole campaign.
And so, based on the above and returning to the subject at hand: what's wrong with EPL footballers taking a knee before matches?
Edit: Also, specifically:
So... should we give up? What's your point with saying that?
Racism is discrimination based on race, or rather, based on racialization (given that race is largely a social construct). What's vague about it?
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I don’t think it’s just my vision though. I’d stand by what I’ve said from a moral standpoint. I get your example, and agree they are good things, but they still aren’t positive effects on society/the working population/people with less than me/minorities, which is where I’m angling this.
Im not saying nothing useful has come from the right.
Point out to me this supposed leftist utopia.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that to the vast majority of leftists, the Nordic countries are the closest the world's ever gotten to something they'd call a utopia. The people who see the various "communist" regimes of the 20th century as utopias, or even having merit, are called tankies and are generally disliked by the rest of the left.
I think we're one off of a full house.
It would be great to have “all lives matter” but that term has been hijacked by people that say all lives matter and then say “great news” when they hear of some refugee dingy sinking and 20 or so men, women and children.
A genuine thing that people are starting to mention is that “black lives matter” feels like it neglects the people throughout the world who suffer much worse forms of discrimination then anyone in the USA suffers.
Eg, certain native ethnic groups in South America, Uhingurs in China (what happened when Ozil spoke out about that?), Sikhs and Muslims in India, Christians in Pakistan, migrant black African people in South Africa are discriminated against by black South Africans, pretty much anyone doing labour or housekeeping in the Gulf, Palestinians etc.
It has become like yes racism and discrimination is disgusting.. but why don’t we use this platform to focus on all of it. That is the vibe I am starting to feel from people. It’s become politicised, the example that I keep getting is Ozil. He was silenced for speaking out about a place where millions are put into camps, the women are forced to marry ethic Chinese men etc but every week players bend the knee for a movement
A genuine thing that people are starting to mention is that “black lives matter” feels like it neglects the people throughout the world who suffer much worse forms of discrimination then anyone in the USA suffers.
Eg, certain native ethnic groups in South America, Uhingurs in China (what happened when Ozil spoke out about that?), Sikhs and Muslims in India, Christians in Pakistan, migrant black African people in South Africa are discriminated against by black South Africans, pretty much anyone doing labour or housekeeping in the Gulf, Palestinians etc.
It has become like yes racism and discrimination is disgusting.. but why don’t we use this platform to focus on all of it. That is the vibe I am starting to feel from people. It’s become politicised, the example that I keep getting is Ozil. He was silenced for speaking out about a place where millions are put into camps, the women are forced to marry ethic Chinese men etc but every week players bend the knee for a movement
It's definitely this with a lot of people, mostly older. They hate being told to be aware of things or that they need to feel a certain way about an issue that normally doesn't enter their lives in any meaningful way. Black kids getting stopped by London police for no reason has no impact on old white folks in their comfortable semi in a nice market town. If they try and fix the problem there's no tangible upside for them either so it grates that they are being asked to consider the issue.
So is this racism or just innate human selfishness and 'what's in it for me?' attitude? I think it's wrong to say all who moan about it are racists, but they definitely aren't helping. Allowing the status quo because of personal apathy is unacceptable.
Its a symbolic gesture designed to highlight a cause and give people the confidence to speak out and not just accept the way things are
So, in that respect, it’s working and should continue
So, in that respect, it’s working and should continue
How about kickstarting the tech industry in the UK by massively funding the supply of computers to schools in the 1980's? I remember when the computer lab at my school opened in early 80s and the home computing boom was just beginning. There was an underlying desire in Thatcher's government to modernise the UK that was quite successful but obviously had negative impacts too.
I think it's a bit of column A, a bit of column B. You're right that a lot of it is just a "not my problem" attitude. But I think there's also a bit of an almost NIMBY attitude amongst a lot of "not racist but..." people. Same goes for LGBTQ+ issues - "not homophobic, but" - and the but is usually "keep it out of my living room", or "don't let it intrude on my life", or just "keep it away from me". And to be honest, that is racist, it is homophobic. If a bunch of players and a commentator take a minute to highlight that racism is a massive problem and that black lives matter, and your response is "I don't want to see that" then I'd ask what your problem is with black people? Why does calling out racism make you uncomfortable? (not saying you @Grinner - you know what I mean)
Well it's white privilege innit? The complete inability to comprehend that you can become absolutely powerless in some situations just because of your skin colour. It's hard to empathise if you don't know how that feels so you just associate your own experience with it. I've been stopped by the rozzers a few times and it wasn't really an uncomfortable experience so black kids should just 'gerronwivit' and not make such a big deal....is probably what they are thinking.
Those examples are very common even today.
People that dispute the message are cringe!
Well, that works both ways. you can't claim the right will lead us on a path to fascism, but deny the inherent dangers of leftwing ideology. Communism was viewed upon very differently in the west before Stalin. Remember half of western intellectuals (especially in France) were adepts.
The point is there's no such thing as a utopia. Our current system is flawed, but the solution is not some one sided experiment that completely ignores the wishes of the other side. The solution is to better living conditions for as many people as possible. That includes (lower class) white people. If you forget about them, the result will be more votes for parties with very dark ideas. People forget that the rise of fascism was the result of a system failure. That still holds true today: there wouldn't be Trumpism if our social democracies weren't so flawed. Thinking people only vote rightwing because they're backward racists is as dangerous as thinking immigrants only vote leftwing because they're too lazy to work.
The Nordic countries are nowhere near as left wing as you make them out to be, by the way. What exactly makes them currently more leftwing than say Belgium or the Netherlands? Norway has been lead by their own version of Thatcher for a decade now. Denmark has much stricter immigration policies than most Western European countries. And in Sweden the nationalist SD are the fastest growing party. In fact, they're probably the best argument of why you need both sides.
I'd urge you to read Akala's "Natives: Race and Class in the Ruins of Empire" if you'd like think racism is done and dusted in the UK. It's a pretty straightforward read and doesn't require you to be well-versed in the literature on race in the UK and elsewhere.
Why is touching hair racist? It’s like touching baby bumps, incredibly rude but not racist. I noticed when someone is rude to black people it is instantly called rasism, but there’s big difference.
I think it has a bigger impact on football and it hardly takes any of their time to put out this strong message. I personally think this should go on for many many seasons and there should be no wiggle room for anything other than this. It is totally not something to oppose. Discrimination of any kind is a NO in my book.
Dropping a knee is offensive. According to this twat.
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I had a conversation with a mate last summer during the UK BLM protests, around the time that statue in Bristol was knocked down. He, like many others, had no idea who that man was or the British empire's, shall we say, exploits. He was shocked to find out through social media all this stuff this bloke had done and what really took place in that era of British history so it prompted him start reading more. A couple of months later, he comes to me bemoaning the fact that he had basically lived in the dark for so many years about the fact that black people and other minorities really suffered at the hands of this thing he was told was the greatest empire. This stuff just isn't taught in schools, and through more conversations with me and his other black and Asian friends, he was hit with a lot of the same realisations you mention here. No-one can ever convince me raising awareness loses it's impact or an empty gesture.
If you're on the opposite side of an issue from Priti Patel then you can usually feel secure in your thinking.
This is Redcafe.
That’s true. For both players and supporters of colour it’s a really empowering show of solidarity. It really has put the rugby players to shame. Their displays of disunity must be dreadful for team spirit.
The symbolism has clearly moved beyond its original context. Everyone knows exactly what taking the knee means now so does it really matter?
Amen.
Yes, absolutely it should be abandoned. Whether you agree og disagree with BLM, politics should have no place in sports. It's extremely divisive to have mandatory support for a political organisation - by law or by social pressure - as part of the rituals surrounding any sport.
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OP and his "Wokeness" jibe requires absolutely no response from me, as he has no intention to actually talk about racism. Just the act of taking a knee.
Why does taking the knee evince such a poor reaction from people? Can't they see that it is ultimately but a sign of respect? A symbol of mourning? It is not about losing "power" but about giving "power" to all. It is an act of solidarity. That is all.
It is time for people who point to the BLM movement in the UK as the main reason to realise... Football is GLOBAL. The Premier League is a GLOBAL entity now. To most parts of the world those few seconds mean nothing but an acknowledgment that the problem exists. Black Lives Matter... why are those words used? because in many many countries it doesn't seem to. Hence, it must be said! To anyone saying "All Lives Matter" - of course they do! but the fire in your neighborhood requires the firemen to put out the houses on fire, NOT ALL HOUSES.
Listen... it all comes down to this. People who are so perturbed by footballers taking 5 seconds to show some respect to the racially abused... 5 seconds. 5. SECONDS... need to look themselves in the mirror and ask why they hate it so much.
Priti Patel is British. But her parents were Indian. Her grandparents were under tyrannical British Rule. They were denied rights by the colour of their skin. Considered less than by their overlords. The oppression of the British and their obsession with whiteness went so deep, that even today that idea of "fairness of skin" is prevalent in Indian. A colonial hangover. It's psychological.
Racism has a long and dark history. It is an invention of Western colonial powers to prove or rather reason WHY they had the right to colonise, plunder and "civilize" the likes of India, countries in Africa, and other parts of Asia.
We use statistics in football almost as a rule of law. It is one of the alters at which football and every other sport is evangelised. But did you know that the founder of Statistics, Karl Pearson, was the protege of one Sir Francis Galton. Both considered great mathematicians of their time, and pioneers of statistics. Their names still etched in stone in the hallways of King's College London and Cambridge. But little does the world remember that Sir Francis Galton was one of the greatest proponents of Eugenics. The vile study of humans intended to scientifically deem the white man superior to all others. Galton and Pearson created mathematical models needed to actively study hair and skin samples from across the world to prove Eugenics as an internationally accepted science. Think about it... Statistics was invented to prove racism. Hell, at one point Winston Churchill was a proponent! I would refer everyone to read the wonderfully well researched and award winning book "Superior" by Angela Saini to know more.
Racism is recent. Its stain hasn't left our societies left. Today it is systemic, quieter... more subtle. Maybe it appears in pubs, under-privileged parts of society, or even misguided populist political rallies, but for the most part it is kept under the lid. But, it rears its head when emotions fly and Axel Tuanzebe's mistake leads to a freekick that leads to a goal. That's all it took.
5 seconds of respect hurts nobody. There is no "wokeness" here. Just common decency. Become part of the solution, not the problem.
Why does taking the knee evince such a poor reaction from people? Can't they see that it is ultimately but a sign of respect? A symbol of mourning? It is not about losing "power" but about giving "power" to all. It is an act of solidarity. That is all.
It is time for people who point to the BLM movement in the UK as the main reason to realise... Football is GLOBAL. The Premier League is a GLOBAL entity now. To most parts of the world those few seconds mean nothing but an acknowledgment that the problem exists. Black Lives Matter... why are those words used? because in many many countries it doesn't seem to. Hence, it must be said! To anyone saying "All Lives Matter" - of course they do! but the fire in your neighborhood requires the firemen to put out the houses on fire, NOT ALL HOUSES.
Listen... it all comes down to this. People who are so perturbed by footballers taking 5 seconds to show some respect to the racially abused... 5 seconds. 5. SECONDS... need to look themselves in the mirror and ask why they hate it so much.
Priti Patel is British. But her parents were Indian. Her grandparents were under tyrannical British Rule. They were denied rights by the colour of their skin. Considered less than by their overlords. The oppression of the British and their obsession with whiteness went so deep, that even today that idea of "fairness of skin" is prevalent in Indian. A colonial hangover. It's psychological.
Racism has a long and dark history. It is an invention of Western colonial powers to prove or rather reason WHY they had the right to colonise, plunder and "civilize" the likes of India, countries in Africa, and other parts of Asia.
We use statistics in football almost as a rule of law. It is one of the alters at which football and every other sport is evangelised. But did you know that the founder of Statistics, Karl Pearson, was the protege of one Sir Francis Galton. Both considered great mathematicians of their time, and pioneers of statistics. Their names still etched in stone in the hallways of King's College London and Cambridge. But little does the world remember that Sir Francis Galton was one of the greatest proponents of Eugenics. The vile study of humans intended to scientifically deem the white man superior to all others. Galton and Pearson created mathematical models needed to actively study hair and skin samples from across the world to prove Eugenics as an internationally accepted science. Think about it... Statistics was invented to prove racism. Hell, at one point Winston Churchill was a proponent! I would refer everyone to read the wonderfully well researched and award winning book "Superior" by Angela Saini to know more.
Racism is recent. Its stain hasn't left our societies left. Today it is systemic, quieter... more subtle. Maybe it appears in pubs, under-privileged parts of society, or even misguided populist political rallies, but for the most part it is kept under the lid. But, it rears its head when emotions fly and Axel Tuanzebe's mistake leads to a freekick that leads to a goal. That's all it took.
5 seconds of respect hurts nobody. There is no "wokeness" here. Just common decency. Become part of the solution, not the problem.
Incredible post
James Baldwin makes that point so eloquently at the end of I Am Not Your Negro. It's incredibly powerful.
Have you read nothing?
It's post like these that just solidify how god damn ignorant people who are so against it are. It's not "BLM the political movement" as you say. It's "No Room for Racism". And just because they are using the same symbolic gesture to put the agenda forward, does not mean it's the same "political movement".
Not really. The poor correlation between the gesture and the cause (if we're talking about tackling racism globally and not just in the U.S.) creates a lot of issues and it didn't yet became a universal symbol (at least outside of U.S. & Great Britain). I'm speaking from my own experience as to how this is perceived in Russia, for example — and I'm pretty sure that the same issues exist in other countries. I mean, the OP (or rather the news that were in the OP) clearly highlights that the symbol's new meaning is far from being settled and generally it's often associated only with racism against black people in the U.S.
Taking a knee symbol spread like a wildfire throughout the U.S. because of how well it illustrated the issue — and alluded to the United States' relevant political & historical context. Installing it as a global gesture against racism have not yet worked (mainly because the correlation between the gesture and racism overall isn't as evident for people in many, many other cultures) — and it has to be installed artificially, which is never a good thing for a symbol that you want to be spread world-wide.
Which is why I say that ideally there should be a more universally understandable symbol for this.
They don't do it to show support for the organization, they do it to raise awareness of racism. Its a clear difference.
If you mean that they shouldn't do it cause some people think racism is ok or that racism doesn't exists, well I don't know what to say...
This is just pure intellectual dishonesty on your part, and frankly not something I'm going to dignify with debating. Get your head out of your own arse.
I really like your post in general, but the above statement is just horsesh*t.
Racism isn't an "invention", it is evolutionary tribalism. In small tribes, allegiance to the community (and animosity towards strangers) ensures the best chance of survival. We evolved past these tribal communities, but the instinct remains. You might argue Western powers rationalised it through Christianity and fake science like eugenics, but to say we "invented" racism completely disregards the entire history of humankind.
Racism has existed since the day we became Homo Sapiens (we even completely wiped out another species of humans), hence why it's so hard (impossible, probably) to eradicate. The only solution is to teach proper history, to vigorously defend the principles of humanist rationalism and to start very early in teaching kids tolerance.
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