The unfair bit was more for how easy it is to for other clubs and less for how difficult it is for us.
Getting Champions league football, a bit unfair?
- Thread starter UnofficialDevil
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Hardly a surprise. Shit sides in the PL can spend more money than most European teams. Sounds like the super league if we are to just base who competes in it based on financial resources.
This.
England have had the most finalists in the EL since 2015-16 and 2 winners of it (Behind Spain who have 4). In the 21st century everytime a Spanish team has got to the EL final they've won it. They're clear winners but I wouldn't say that English teams don't care about winning it. Due to how competitive top 4 is for the big clubs it's a good avenue for them to take.
But that's not the fault of the CL. If you wanted it like that it would just be the rich nations getting in leading to a devastating effect on football in other nations. Of course it should be the champions but we are beyond that now. 4 places is more than enough for the PL.
Again, maybe it's because their league is easier? They get to rest players more?
Remember Milan resting almost their entire team before playing us in the CL? Whereas we battled a hard fought win just before?, can't remember the team right now.
Halaand and Bellingham literally turned us down for Dortmund.
It would also mean that they get the PL money and the access to sugar daddies, states and hedge funds as owners.
We had CL football to offer the season Bellingham moved. They turned us down for other reasons - mainly because they had more faith in Dortmund development system.
So we are competing with Dortmund for players then yeah?
Thing is they dont need all that do they? Thy can get the CL money without spending because their league is easy.
But to be fair, isn't it already a competition based on who has the biggest financial resources collectively as a league? Hence why England, France, Germany, Spain and Italy get 4 places because they have the most financial power? If it was a true fair based spread, then Turkey should get the same number of places as everyone else?
Are we competing against Dortmund for Frenkie De Jong?
This is a myth. Leipzig finished in the top four with a 1.7 points average. Similar point average in the PL would put you somewhere between 5th and 6th last year, and 7th the year before that. Math works out similar for the champions.
Beating dross is more routine for the top teams in the premier league. The “no game in the premier league is easy” hasn’t been true for a long time.
It can if the massive team is rubbish, like Man Utd currently is. It's a very slippery slope. Say that 20 years ago and Man City and Chelsea are locked out. 40 or so and Nottingham Forest and Aston Villa are locked in. It's called the Champions League, but there are very few champions in it.
They never let me finish
Aren't you American? Surely the first thing you'll do is close the leagues, franchise the clubs and ensure the owners have a 50% profit margins?
I lean more towards the left so I'd probably mandate at least 50% fan ownership, greater profit sharing, banning of loans, smaller squad sizes... Force talent to spread out across Europe instead of piling up at 4 teams
We are competing with Eindhoven, Gapko will turn us down if they qualify.
Just for fun I'll make this statement: Dortmund doesn't need to chase de Jong, as they already got Bellingham they can let United hunt for scraps.
*scnr*
It’s based on coefficients which is based on past results which is highly correlated with spending, yes, but not solely decided by spending. And because non-CL competitions also factor into coefficients, and because there are hard limits on max number of teams from one nation, it ends having more variety than just picking the top 32 richest European clubs.
So unless it's every single player we're chasing then we're not competing with that club for transfers?
I don't think playing in CL actually matters nearly as much as often claimed. When people say that a player wants CL football its usually a shorthand for something else - money primarily, but also to go to a club with better chance of winning trophies (the CL being one obviously). Often times its a lot easier and more palatable to claim that you want CL football than to claim that you want more money. This gets best tested when you have clubs make the CL that don't pay well or have much chance of winning their domestic title. Kamara and Diego Carlos both just gave up CL football to move to Villa. That's how much CL football by itself really matters in the end.
In United's case, money obviously isn't a problem. But I don't think a lack of CL football is really the issue either. Especially after the past year, the club has an image as being dysfunctional and a place where the careers of some top players have stagnated in recent years. Other top players are going to have reservations about moving to United until they see the evidence that a corner has been turned in terms of the club being run professionally and being a place where they can achieve their career objectives. Top players will always have other options and you need some kind of convincing project to sell them on. Merely hiring ETH isn't enough, he doesn't have a big enough reputation in the game and he can't solve all the problems by himself. There needs to be follow through in terms of what is happening on the pitch, the general tenor around the club's operations, etc. I think if you have a good year and show progress on the pitch and there is positivity around the club you will be much better positioned to sign top players next summer, even if you don't get CL football.
In United's case, money obviously isn't a problem. But I don't think a lack of CL football is really the issue either. Especially after the past year, the club has an image as being dysfunctional and a place where the careers of some top players have stagnated in recent years. Other top players are going to have reservations about moving to United until they see the evidence that a corner has been turned in terms of the club being run professionally and being a place where they can achieve their career objectives. Top players will always have other options and you need some kind of convincing project to sell them on. Merely hiring ETH isn't enough, he doesn't have a big enough reputation in the game and he can't solve all the problems by himself. There needs to be follow through in terms of what is happening on the pitch, the general tenor around the club's operations, etc. I think if you have a good year and show progress on the pitch and there is positivity around the club you will be much better positioned to sign top players next summer, even if you don't get CL football.
I mean usually Dortmund seem to be done with their business before United seem to have begun scouting, so I'd say "no".
Spending and wages need to be an exact reflection of a team's finances.
Hard caps create more parity but can be extremely frustrating.
For instance, the Toronto Maple Leafs and the New York Rangers generate immense wealth but can only spend as much as the Phoenix Coyotes who nobody gives a feck about. Such a system holds the league back from getting more popular.
Hard caps create more parity but can be extremely frustrating.
For instance, the Toronto Maple Leafs and the New York Rangers generate immense wealth but can only spend as much as the Phoenix Coyotes who nobody gives a feck about. Such a system holds the league back from getting more popular.
Don't you understand the context of the thread you are commenting in?
The OP is complaining, that players are turning us down because we don't have CL football which is much easier to obtain for clubs like Dortmund and Olympiacos. I've countered that by stating, that players won't reject and join those clubs because of CL football. It'll be for other reasons.
Reading between the lines of all this is the fact FDJ is reluctant to join us, because we don't have CL football to offer. But once again, its not clubs like Dortmund or Olympiacos we're up against.
Hope this helps. Read the OP next time.
Not ‘unfair’ in the sense described.
But what I do think is a little ‘unfair’, or certainly some teams have better fortune, is how their ‘declines’ are relatively modest in comparison to a top PL team’s decline. For a traditional big side in England, you cannot have a tough few years and still expect to make the Champions League. As a result, the mood, narrative and stigma that engulfs such periods is so much louder. In countries like Spain or Italy, Barcelona’s fall is broken by the fact that they need to be unprecedentedly bad to miss out on the CL, for example. As a result of still being a CL club, they can maintain prestige, income and generally keep the noise quiet. They can go away for a few years and get themselves together from the position of third domestically - which would mean that their return to challenging for first place is never really too far away. Juventus are possibly going through something similar. They are not the force they once were. Even we beat them in the CL. But it’s harder for them to miss out on the CL altogether.
I always say nobody is ‘guaranteed CL football’ in the PL. Even City or Liverpool. If their standards drop, there is no guarantee they can arrest the decline well enough to finish top 4.
But what I do think is a little ‘unfair’, or certainly some teams have better fortune, is how their ‘declines’ are relatively modest in comparison to a top PL team’s decline. For a traditional big side in England, you cannot have a tough few years and still expect to make the Champions League. As a result, the mood, narrative and stigma that engulfs such periods is so much louder. In countries like Spain or Italy, Barcelona’s fall is broken by the fact that they need to be unprecedentedly bad to miss out on the CL, for example. As a result of still being a CL club, they can maintain prestige, income and generally keep the noise quiet. They can go away for a few years and get themselves together from the position of third domestically - which would mean that their return to challenging for first place is never really too far away. Juventus are possibly going through something similar. They are not the force they once were. Even we beat them in the CL. But it’s harder for them to miss out on the CL altogether.
I always say nobody is ‘guaranteed CL football’ in the PL. Even City or Liverpool. If their standards drop, there is no guarantee they can arrest the decline well enough to finish top 4.
The least fair thing to do here is give the Premier League more CL spots to generate even more revenue to further increase their advantages over the rest of the continent.
As someone who doesn't live in England but has supported United and the English football for nearly 30 years - this discussion is based on the last decade. All the oil and Asian money being poured over the PL for football washing created this. Go back to when English football was something to really love and appreciate. Rain, muddy fields, players with charisma lovely stories about teams like Nottingham Forest etc.
Nowadays "fans" just want the latest and best and has totally lost the idea of a football club. I always loved United during the early years of PL because they had a lot of British players. I loved the rule who only allowed x numbers of foreign players. Then each and every one of them more or less become exotic and exiting.
Champions League should be for the CHAMPIONS and not for the clubs around Europe with the most dirty money invested. I really hope they reduce the number of spots in "Champions" League instead.
And really, if you choose one club over another for say between 6-10 matches of European football a season, something is really off...
Nowadays "fans" just want the latest and best and has totally lost the idea of a football club. I always loved United during the early years of PL because they had a lot of British players. I loved the rule who only allowed x numbers of foreign players. Then each and every one of them more or less become exotic and exiting.
Champions League should be for the CHAMPIONS and not for the clubs around Europe with the most dirty money invested. I really hope they reduce the number of spots in "Champions" League instead.
And really, if you choose one club over another for say between 6-10 matches of European football a season, something is really off...
Here's another example of a player that might turn us down for CL football. Gapko
The Dutch winger recently alluded to discussions regarding his future, as he appeared to pin his decision to stay or leave on whether or not his side qualify for the Champions League. Eindhoven over us?
Dortmund in the PL, with the additional money they would receive by virtue of just participating in the competition, would absolutely be just as much of a top 4 candidate as current United. This thread pictures a ridiculously one-sided point of view.
Is it fair that average PL teams are a lot more affluent than average La Liga ones, based on no specific sporting merit?
Is it fair that average PL teams are a lot more affluent than average La Liga ones, based on no specific sporting merit?
That's fair, but I'll wait until I actually see it. I doubt a player turns us down to stay at PSV for another season simply because he'd earn more here just joining us.
Though from what I can tell, it's more that PSV would be more reluctant to sell him if they qualify for the CL because a) they won't need the money b) his stock might be even higher next season, after being on display in the CL.
Yes, but it’s a vicious circle because the best leagues in the world have the highest coefficients because they have the best results because they have the best players because they are the richest.
The players are lying about not moving to United because of CL football.
We'd be slaughtered by most champions league teams, including Dortmund. We have no business being involved.
Champions League should be for champions only. Too many spots given to big leagues has murdered leagues like the eredivise nevermind smaller leagues.
League champions and national Cup champions should be all. Its in the competition name.
League champions and national Cup champions should be all. Its in the competition name.
Well, these are the player comments:
"We must first focus on the second leg against Monaco and try to make it to the Champions League, then it is more likely that I will stay."
Fair, he could be a strange creature. But i still think, if we offer the right amount he'd sign for us. Nobody leaves money on the table.
The only time i can think of someone not joining us because of CL football was Sanchez choosing Arsenal over us. But Arsenal also pay extremely well.
Maybe we should transfer to the Welsh league.
Players aren’t moving to Manchester Utd not because of UCL. It’s because we’re shit and run in a shit way right now.
So it should be called the biggest clubs in the world league
Disagree. Your assumption that Bellingham didn't turn us down over CL football 'because United were in it that season' is avoiding the context that United have not consistently been in the CL for a decade, where as in the same period of time Dortmund have. Any intelligent and ambitious footballer is going to factor that in to their decision.
De Jong is an isolated case like all transfers are. Just because Dortmund are not in for him doesn't mean we aren't competing with them for transfers, espcially when is recent seasons two of our biggest targets directly rejected us to join them.
I don't think Bellingham had the foresight to realise we were soon going to miss out on the CL.
Though, i do agree with your general point though - top players by now should be getting wary of joining us for their long term CL prospects. In fact, i'd be asking my agent to ensure there's a no CL exit clause in any contract I sign with United. But even in that scenario, they won't be running off to Dortmund and co - they'd leaving for better clubs.