It would be good to see two centre backs coming in. Would like to see one that’s established and a starting quality, and then a Martinez backup.
We should be able to to get decent fees for Maguire and Lindelof.
What do we still need? Aka The never ending story
- Thread starter Devil may care
- Start date
We should be able to to get decent fees for Maguire and Lindelof.
While I'm no expert in football statistics, these are my thoughts on what I think is working for City (as an example) when I looked at their individual player stats:
Ederson - In the bottom 2% of goal kicks taken across top 5 leagues in Europe. He's also in the bottom 10% for passes over 40 yards.
Ake, Dias, Stones, Akanji, Walker, Gvardiol - Every single one of those 6 players are at 90+ percentile for passing. If you look at our players, only Martinez is up there with that group, so a good place to start would be those ball playing CBs and FBs. 1 or 2 of these City players are also excellent at progressive carries.
Rodri - leads every stat when it comes to passing, and is also 99th percentile for progressive passes and carries. Case while he's great with the defensive side of things (top percentiles across Europe for tackles, blocks, clearances and aerial duals), is well behind in progressive passing and ball carrying.
Bernardo - Also great with his progressive passes and carries, while being in the 98th percentile both for passes attempted and passes completed. Mainoo might still get there but he doesn't impose himself in a game in that same way yet.
De Bruyne (Small sample size with him this season admittedly) - Also in the top of Europe in his passing stats (passes attempted, progressive passes, progressive carries, take ons and touches in the attacking penalty area). He is 99th percentile for progressive passes received, which shows how well everyone behind him works to get the ball safely to him while being higher up the pitch (And how good he is at receiving). Bruno on the other hand is the only midfielder in our team that is in the 99th percentile for progressive passes but is only in the 25th percentile for progressive passes received and is well behind KdB in those other areas I mentioned earlier, while being ahead in the defensive actions - Which means, he's not able to play a proper No 10 role with this team as he doesn't have the right profile of midfielders/defenders behind him that are ball carriers and most of the time, he's got to do his progressive passing from behind the half way line.
From their usual wide attackers - Doku, Grealish, Alvarez and Foden are high up in those passing/carrying stats. Rashford is well below par in these stats, and Garnacho only excels in progressive carries plus touches in attacking pen. area. Alvarez and Doku are high up in the tackles stat (Above 80th percentile), while Rashy for example in the 4th and 5th percentile respectively for tackles and interceptions (None of the City wide players this season are below the 40th percentile in at least one of these stats)
Garna at least is doing well with interceptions and Antony for all his faults is high up with his defensive contributions. It's painfully obvious we need wide attackers who can carry the ball, make progressive passes and can put those tackles/interceptions in.Haaland - Decent pass accuracy for a CF, and takes a lot of touches in the box (90th percentile). Hojlund on the other hand takes far less touches in the box (50th percentile), but is well ahead of Haaland in terms of ball carries and take ons. He is also quite high for progressive passes received (78th percentile, whereas Haaland is in the 12th percentile). I think what this shows is that Hojlund is not able to be a fully functioning centre forward in this team, he has to do a lot of the ball carrying in the final third - Whereas he should just be the final piece of the puzzle, that is able to do some passing, but is there solely to score goals.
Putting all this together, if we want to play with more control, I think we need CBs/FBs who are able to pass progressively, while also carrying the ball well. The midfield 3 themselves need to be passing and carrying the ball to a high standard. This composed spine of the team allows our GK to play short/flat passes to distribute the ball. The ability to pass well with composure then leads to more possession, and less defensive actions required from the midfield and defence. The wide attackers also need to pass more often, pass more accurately, pass progressively, carry the ball forwards more often, and contribute defensively at a high level (Either via tackles or interceptions). Our CF then just needs to make more runs into the box, and utilise the passing abilities of the wide players / FBs / midfielders to have more effective touches inside the box. I think Rasmus, Garna, Kobbie, Bruno, Shaw, Licha, Dalot, Onana, Mount are all capable of playing this way. I'm just not convinced with the rest of our squad - Case, Varane, and Rashford just needs to get replaced for cheaper/younger options that suit this kind of football more. Perhaps Bruno needs to go as well, but I think he will improve with better players around him - I don't see him necessarily as the biggest problem, but if he is, he will get found out next to those better players quite quickly. Then we need better squad options who are also good at passing and ball carrying - This means Maguire, Lindelof, AWB, McTominay, Antony, Sancho, Greenwood all need selling. That's 10 players to sell and then 4 defenders, 3 midfielders, and around 3 wide players to add.
10 years of mismanagement + two bad decisions by ETH/Murtogh on Antony and Case (Good player but not for us imo) results in this mess, hope that INEOS themselves see that the squad still needs a lot of work. Oldest player we signed during the Gill/Fergie era was RVP so I hope we return to that policy when we buy from outside, and I hope some more of our youth players will also help us bridge this gap.
Another right winger with attacking threat and end product
2 midfielders with ball retention and athleticism
Competition for Hojlund
Athletic Ball playing RCB
Right back with attacking threat
2 midfielders with ball retention and athleticism
Competition for Hojlund
Athletic Ball playing RCB
Right back with attacking threat
Hojlund
Rashford Bruno Olise
Thuram Zubimendi
Shaw Martinez Todibo Frimpong
Onana
Rashford Bruno Olise
Thuram Zubimendi
Shaw Martinez Todibo Frimpong
Onana
LCB
RCB
LB
RB
CM
RW
ST
7 players in the next 2 summers hopefully.
Martinez and Varane need two more CBs with them, and Maguire and Lindelof moved on.
Shaw and Dalot need competition going forwards, why not look at Ferland Mendy from Real Madrid seeing as they're linked with Alphonso Davies at Bayern. Frimpong is an obvious one being linked with us last year and being available with a doable buyout clause in the summer.
We still need a CM that we should've signed when Ten Hag signed Mount to play CM.
A right winger if Greenwood isn't being brought back in the summer to play. That player can replace Sancho, Greenwood and Antony as a starter.
Another CF as we need two for next season with Martial leaving at the end of his contract.
The players that need to go to make way for signings:
Malacia
Maguire
Lindelof
AWB
Eriksen
Sancho
Antony
Martial
RCB
LB
RB
CM
RW
ST
7 players in the next 2 summers hopefully.
Martinez and Varane need two more CBs with them, and Maguire and Lindelof moved on.
Shaw and Dalot need competition going forwards, why not look at Ferland Mendy from Real Madrid seeing as they're linked with Alphonso Davies at Bayern. Frimpong is an obvious one being linked with us last year and being available with a doable buyout clause in the summer.
We still need a CM that we should've signed when Ten Hag signed Mount to play CM.
A right winger if Greenwood isn't being brought back in the summer to play. That player can replace Sancho, Greenwood and Antony as a starter.
Another CF as we need two for next season with Martial leaving at the end of his contract.
The players that need to go to make way for signings:
Malacia
Maguire
Lindelof
AWB
Eriksen
Sancho
Antony
Martial
Malacia the mystery man of the season was pretty decent last season. Maguire is going nowhere and is actually a pretty decent third option at CB. We're not going to find a better fourth option at CB than Lindelof. We could upgrade at RB but AWB is a decent second option at RB. Erkisen is done. Sancho will be hard to sell, but he does have to GTF out of OT. Antony will be impossible to sell, but maybe a season-long loan in Germany would do him wonder. Martial, like Varane (whom you didn't mention), will walk out on a free.
Depending on whether he can maintain his newfound form, Onana may need to face the plank as well. But he's been in fine form of late and if we can keep it up we may be ok at keeper next season. Not great as there isn't a scintilla of greatness about him either as a shot stopper, sweeper-keeper or in terms of his command of the box -- all of which was promised when we brought him in.
Good Post agree with everything more or less .While I'm no expert in football statistics, these are my thoughts on what I think is working for City (as an example) when I looked at their individual player stats:
Ederson - In the bottom 2% of goal kicks taken across top 5 leagues in Europe. He's also in the bottom 10% for passes over 40 yards.
Ake, Dias, Stones, Akanji, Walker, Gvardiol - Every single one of those 6 players are at 90+ percentile for passing. If you look at our players, only Martinez is up there with that group, so a good place to start would be those ball playing CBs and FBs. 1 or 2 of these City players are also excellent at progressive carries.
Rodri - leads every stat when it comes to passing, and is also 99th percentile for progressive passes and carries. Case while he's great with the defensive side of things (top percentiles across Europe for tackles, blocks, clearances and aerial duals), is well behind in progressive passing and ball carrying.
Bernardo - Also great with his progressive passes and carries, while being in the 98th percentile both for passes attempted and passes completed. Mainoo might still get there but he doesn't impose himself in a game in that same way yet.
De Bruyne (Small sample size with him this season admittedly) - Also in the top of Europe in his passing stats (passes attempted, progressive passes, progressive carries, take ons and touches in the attacking penalty area). He is 99th percentile for progressive passes received, which shows how well everyone behind him works to get the ball safely to him while being higher up the pitch (And how good he is at receiving). Bruno on the other hand is the only midfielder in our team that is in the 99th percentile for progressive passes but is only in the 25th percentile for progressive passes received and is well behind KdB in those other areas I mentioned earlier, while being ahead in the defensive actions - Which means, he's not able to play a proper No 10 role with this team as he doesn't have the right profile of midfielders/defenders behind him that are ball carriers and most of the time, he's got to do his progressive passing from behind the half way line.
From their usual wide attackers - Doku, Grealish, Alvarez and Foden are high up in those passing/carrying stats. Rashford is well below par in these stats, and Garnacho only excels in progressive carries plus touches in attacking pen. area. Alvarez and Doku are high up in the tackles stat (Above 80th percentile), while Rashy for example in the 4th and 5th percentile respectively for tackles and interceptions (None of the City wide players this season are below the 40th percentile in at least one of these stats)
Haaland - Decent pass accuracy for a CF, and takes a lot of touches in the box (90th percentile). Hojlund on the other hand takes far less touches in the box (50th percentile), but is well ahead of Haaland in terms of ball carries and take ons. He is also quite high for progressive passes received (78th percentile, whereas Haaland is in the 12th percentile). I think what this shows is that Hojlund is not able to be a fully functioning centre forward in this team, he has to do a lot of the ball carrying in the final third - Whereas he should just be the final piece of the puzzle, that is able to do some passing, but is there solely to score goals.
Putting all this together, if we want to play with more control, I think we need CBs/FBs who are able to pass progressively, while also carrying the ball well. The midfield 3 themselves need to be passing and carrying the ball to a high standard. This composed spine of the team allows our GK to play short/flat passes to distribute the ball. The ability to pass well with composure then leads to more possession, and less defensive actions required from the midfield and defence. The wide attackers also need to pass more often, pass more accurately, pass progressively, carry the ball forwards more often, and contribute defensively at a high level (Either via tackles or interceptions). Our CF then just needs to make more runs into the box, and utilise the passing abilities of the wide players / FBs / midfielders to have more effective touches inside the box. I think Rasmus, Garna, Kobbie, Bruno, Shaw, Licha, Dalot, Onana, Mount are all capable of playing this way. I'm just not convinced with the rest of our squad - Case, Varane, and Rashford just needs to get replaced for cheaper/younger options that suit this kind of football more. Perhaps Bruno needs to go as well, but I think he will improve with better players around him - I don't see him necessarily as the biggest problem, but if he is, he will get found out next to those better players quite quickly. Then we need better squad options who are also good at passing and ball carrying - This means Maguire, Lindelof, AWB, McTominay, Antony, Sancho, Greenwood all need selling. That's 10 players to sell and then 4 defenders, 3 midfielders, and around 3 wide players to add.
10 years of mismanagement + two bad decisions by ETH/Murtogh on Antony and Case (Good player but not for us imo) results in this mess, hope that INEOS themselves see that the squad still needs a lot of work. Oldest player we signed during the Gill/Fergie era was RVP so I hope we return to that policy when we buy from outside, and I hope some more of our youth players will also help us bridge this gap.
Awesome post. I hope SJR, SDB, Berrada and the incoming DOF look at the squad in a similar way. Would like to see us be ruthless with players this summer and set a new standard that is in line with the new vision for the club.While I'm no expert in football statistics, these are my thoughts on what I think is working for City (as an example) when I looked at their individual player stats:
Ederson - In the bottom 2% of goal kicks taken across top 5 leagues in Europe. He's also in the bottom 10% for passes over 40 yards.
Ake, Dias, Stones, Akanji, Walker, Gvardiol - Every single one of those 6 players are at 90+ percentile for passing. If you look at our players, only Martinez is up there with that group, so a good place to start would be those ball playing CBs and FBs. 1 or 2 of these City players are also excellent at progressive carries.
Rodri - leads every stat when it comes to passing, and is also 99th percentile for progressive passes and carries. Case while he's great with the defensive side of things (top percentiles across Europe for tackles, blocks, clearances and aerial duals), is well behind in progressive passing and ball carrying.
Bernardo - Also great with his progressive passes and carries, while being in the 98th percentile both for passes attempted and passes completed. Mainoo might still get there but he doesn't impose himself in a game in that same way yet.
De Bruyne (Small sample size with him this season admittedly) - Also in the top of Europe in his passing stats (passes attempted, progressive passes, progressive carries, take ons and touches in the attacking penalty area). He is 99th percentile for progressive passes received, which shows how well everyone behind him works to get the ball safely to him while being higher up the pitch (And how good he is at receiving). Bruno on the other hand is the only midfielder in our team that is in the 99th percentile for progressive passes but is only in the 25th percentile for progressive passes received and is well behind KdB in those other areas I mentioned earlier, while being ahead in the defensive actions - Which means, he's not able to play a proper No 10 role with this team as he doesn't have the right profile of midfielders/defenders behind him that are ball carriers and most of the time, he's got to do his progressive passing from behind the half way line.
From their usual wide attackers - Doku, Grealish, Alvarez and Foden are high up in those passing/carrying stats. Rashford is well below par in these stats, and Garnacho only excels in progressive carries plus touches in attacking pen. area. Alvarez and Doku are high up in the tackles stat (Above 80th percentile), while Rashy for example in the 4th and 5th percentile respectively for tackles and interceptions (None of the City wide players this season are below the 40th percentile in at least one of these stats)
Haaland - Decent pass accuracy for a CF, and takes a lot of touches in the box (90th percentile). Hojlund on the other hand takes far less touches in the box (50th percentile), but is well ahead of Haaland in terms of ball carries and take ons. He is also quite high for progressive passes received (78th percentile, whereas Haaland is in the 12th percentile). I think what this shows is that Hojlund is not able to be a fully functioning centre forward in this team, he has to do a lot of the ball carrying in the final third - Whereas he should just be the final piece of the puzzle, that is able to do some passing, but is there solely to score goals.
Putting all this together, if we want to play with more control, I think we need CBs/FBs who are able to pass progressively, while also carrying the ball well. The midfield 3 themselves need to be passing and carrying the ball to a high standard. This composed spine of the team allows our GK to play short/flat passes to distribute the ball. The ability to pass well with composure then leads to more possession, and less defensive actions required from the midfield and defence. The wide attackers also need to pass more often, pass more accurately, pass progressively, carry the ball forwards more often, and contribute defensively at a high level (Either via tackles or interceptions). Our CF then just needs to make more runs into the box, and utilise the passing abilities of the wide players / FBs / midfielders to have more effective touches inside the box. I think Rasmus, Garna, Kobbie, Bruno, Shaw, Licha, Dalot, Onana, Mount are all capable of playing this way. I'm just not convinced with the rest of our squad - Case, Varane, and Rashford just needs to get replaced for cheaper/younger options that suit this kind of football more. Perhaps Bruno needs to go as well, but I think he will improve with better players around him - I don't see him necessarily as the biggest problem, but if he is, he will get found out next to those better players quite quickly. Then we need better squad options who are also good at passing and ball carrying - This means Maguire, Lindelof, AWB, McTominay, Antony, Sancho, Greenwood all need selling. That's 10 players to sell and then 4 defenders, 3 midfielders, and around 3 wide players to add.
10 years of mismanagement + two bad decisions by ETH/Murtogh on Antony and Case (Good player but not for us imo) results in this mess, hope that INEOS themselves see that the squad still needs a lot of work. Oldest player we signed during the Gill/Fergie era was RVP so I hope we return to that policy when we buy from outside, and I hope some more of our youth players will also help us bridge this gap.
I think to get to a level where we can compete with City I agree there needs to be about 10 out and 10 in based on where the squad is today, which I believe is possible over the next 3 windows.
TY! It's not going to be done across 1 season of course, it'll have to be over a few windows and we'll still make at least 1-2 mistakes in those windows. ETH himself needs to be questioned whether he can buy into this type of football, if not he needs to go as well. If we can get 5 in with this profile with 5 out (250M gross spend, 125M net with the outgoings let's say) this summer that would be terrific - The players to go will be the ones on high wages + Mason who just needs to get sold imo: Case, Varane, Sancho, Greenwood and Rashford to start I guess.
GK: Onana, Bayindir, Heaton
RB: Dalot, Kayode (20m)
LB: Shaw, Malacia
CD: Todibo (40m), Martinez, Maguire, Lindelof, Evans
DM: Casemiro, Gourna-Douath (20m)
CM: Mainoo, McTominay
AM: Fernandes, Mount
RW: Olise (52m release clause), Amad
LW: Garnacho, Rashford
ST: Hojlund, Sesko (42m release clause)
174m in total supplemented by sales such as Greenwood, Wan-Bissaka, Antony (loan), Sancho and co
RB: Dalot, Kayode (20m)
LB: Shaw, Malacia
CD: Todibo (40m), Martinez, Maguire, Lindelof, Evans
DM: Casemiro, Gourna-Douath (20m)
CM: Mainoo, McTominay
AM: Fernandes, Mount
RW: Olise (52m release clause), Amad
LW: Garnacho, Rashford
ST: Hojlund, Sesko (42m release clause)
174m in total supplemented by sales such as Greenwood, Wan-Bissaka, Antony (loan), Sancho and co
I think we need a winger with a comparable quality to Rashford and Garnacho, a striker (I'd be happy with an experienced striker to complement Hojlund or a versatile forward like David), a young DM, unfortunately a left back, as we can't rely on Shaw and a starting CB.
Seems doable in the summer. We may not be title favorites immediately, but if we get more of signing right than wrong, I think we'd have a very strong squad to build on.
Seems doable in the summer. We may not be title favorites immediately, but if we get more of signing right than wrong, I think we'd have a very strong squad to build on.
That's a poor selection of CB's, would be basically worse off than now. Lindelof and Evans likely to leave anyway. I think we'll see two come in, one established, one young prospect (unless Kambwalla is ready to step up).
Basically just swapping Todibo with Varane. Todibo should at least be regularly available. I don't necessarily disagree with you. Personally I'd love us to sign Yoro, Hato (especially as they are both out of contract in 2025) or Branthwaite but they'll be expensive and I don't think we'll be able to afford more than 1 plus a striker plus a DM and a RW. Todibo is a little older and has played for a huge club before so is a bit more ready made than those guys.
If I were in charge, I'd be in for the following players this summer:
-------------------------Hojlund------------------------
Leao---------------------------------------Garnacho
--------------------------------------------------------------
------------------Bruno-----Mainoo-----------------
--------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------Kimmich------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------
Shaw---------------------------------------Frimpong
---------------------------------------------------------------
----------------Martinez-----Todibo-----------------
---------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------Onana----------------------------
-------------------------Hojlund------------------------
Leao---------------------------------------Garnacho
--------------------------------------------------------------
------------------Bruno-----Mainoo-----------------
--------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------Kimmich------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------
Shaw---------------------------------------Frimpong
---------------------------------------------------------------
----------------Martinez-----Todibo-----------------
---------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------Onana----------------------------
I struggle to see Rashford leaving this summer, unless Mbappe goes and Rashford is their no. 1 target. I don’t see any other club having enough interest in him to pay what I think we would want for him.
Other than that, I expect all the other high earners to go for financial reasons to support the rebuild (although saying that most of the high earners should be going for footballing reasons too).
5 in should be the minimum but I’d love us to get as much business done as possible provided we’re not overspending drastically on targets.
Lots of rumours regarding Olise today. I think he is a fun footballer to watch on his day, but he is not ready for the step up to a big club yet, and I dont know if he ever will be United, City, Liverpool quality. On the other hand, I think Neto has the potential to be the next best player that is snapped up from a mid-table club and that can play a key role for a contender. He works hard, and has the end product. But with both of these players, the injuries are a major concern.
Primary targets (realistic):
- J.C. Todibo (RCB) - Straightforward replacement of Varane, pace, power and ability in 1v1 duels to hold the right side channel by himself alongside with decent ability on the ball.
- F. Medina (LCB) - Our build up play drops to a bottom half league level without Lisandro and we can’t let that happen in the future as we should look for more consistency in our performances next season. Medina is the perfect back up for Lisandro and a very, very similar profile of player.
- E. Palacios (CM) - Great combination of defensive contribution, ball winning ability and passing elegance. I think his work for Leverkusen this season is somehow underrated. I would love him here, I think that him, a deep playmaker like Mainoo and an advanced midfielder like Bruno would be a well balanced midfield trio.
- K. Thuram (CM) - Young and promising midfielder who can contribute to our squad, I think his physicality makes him ready for EPL football and like his progression skills - he is a great ball carrier.
- M. Simakan (RB/RCB) - I have a soft spot for this kind of “hybrid” player and as last summer both Timber and Pavard were on the move and we didn’t go for any of them, I would like to have a player like Simakan in the squad. He adds versatility with a lot of space for improvement, he is physically very good and he is good at carrying the ball to the opponent’s half.
- Andre Trindade (DMC) - I thinks it’s risk worthy, talented player who could add something different to our squad as he is natural at #6 position. That can help change dynamics regarding the opponent or phase of the game.
- M. de Ligt (RCB) - He was labelled as generational talent last time he worked under ETH, still very young and should go somewhere where he will be first choice player. Still think he doesn’t have the pace/agility needed to defend in 1v1 situations in wide areas.
- J. Kimmich (DM/RB) - Experienced at the highest level at both DM and RB positions - will add needed experience and versatility into our squad, not to mention his game intelligence and controlling a game.
Realistically, Thuram and Caqueret would be an ideal partnership in our midfield. They would have an understanding with one another, both being French and starters for the national team.
Add a pair of center backs, Todibo, Branthwaite, Diomande, and we would have a very solid young core.
Add a pair of center backs, Todibo, Branthwaite, Diomande, and we would have a very solid young core.
Dream signing for me is Pedro Neto. The only concern is his injury record but he is absolutely electric. I believe that he wouldn't be too overpriced given Wolves have an FFP requirement. Thought the same when Jota was signing for Liverpool.
We need a centre back, a long term replacement for Casemiro (I'd keep him in the squad for another season) and a back up striker in the summer
Get those and we're in a much better position.
Other signings will ultimately depend on who we can sell. If Maguire has a good end to the season and a decent Euros, I'd be tempted to sell whilst his value is higher and then maybe bring in another young centre back.
If we can get a decent fee in for Sancho and the lad currently on loan at Getafe, you probably have the funds to bring in left winger would probably be useful to compete with Rashford.
I also think long term decisions need to be made on Pellestri, Diallo and Hannibal. I'd probably go down the route of selling either Pellestri or Diallo and keeping the other especially if we're in the Europa and have at least 8 group games to contend with. Selling one would give a bit of room for someone younger to step up.
Get those and we're in a much better position.
Other signings will ultimately depend on who we can sell. If Maguire has a good end to the season and a decent Euros, I'd be tempted to sell whilst his value is higher and then maybe bring in another young centre back.
If we can get a decent fee in for Sancho and the lad currently on loan at Getafe, you probably have the funds to bring in left winger would probably be useful to compete with Rashford.
I also think long term decisions need to be made on Pellestri, Diallo and Hannibal. I'd probably go down the route of selling either Pellestri or Diallo and keeping the other especially if we're in the Europa and have at least 8 group games to contend with. Selling one would give a bit of room for someone younger to step up.
Lovely post @moses @Damien give the newbie some love.While I'm no expert in football statistics, these are my thoughts on what I think is working for City (as an example) when I looked at their individual player stats:
Ederson - In the bottom 2% of goal kicks taken across top 5 leagues in Europe. He's also in the bottom 10% for passes over 40 yards.
Ake, Dias, Stones, Akanji, Walker, Gvardiol - Every single one of those 6 players are at 90+ percentile for passing. If you look at our players, only Martinez is up there with that group, so a good place to start would be those ball playing CBs and FBs. 1 or 2 of these City players are also excellent at progressive carries.
Rodri - leads every stat when it comes to passing, and is also 99th percentile for progressive passes and carries. Case while he's great with the defensive side of things (top percentiles across Europe for tackles, blocks, clearances and aerial duals), is well behind in progressive passing and ball carrying.
Bernardo - Also great with his progressive passes and carries, while being in the 98th percentile both for passes attempted and passes completed. Mainoo might still get there but he doesn't impose himself in a game in that same way yet.
De Bruyne (Small sample size with him this season admittedly) - Also in the top of Europe in his passing stats (passes attempted, progressive passes, progressive carries, take ons and touches in the attacking penalty area). He is 99th percentile for progressive passes received, which shows how well everyone behind him works to get the ball safely to him while being higher up the pitch (And how good he is at receiving). Bruno on the other hand is the only midfielder in our team that is in the 99th percentile for progressive passes but is only in the 25th percentile for progressive passes received and is well behind KdB in those other areas I mentioned earlier, while being ahead in the defensive actions - Which means, he's not able to play a proper No 10 role with this team as he doesn't have the right profile of midfielders/defenders behind him that are ball carriers and most of the time, he's got to do his progressive passing from behind the half way line.
From their usual wide attackers - Doku, Grealish, Alvarez and Foden are high up in those passing/carrying stats. Rashford is well below par in these stats, and Garnacho only excels in progressive carries plus touches in attacking pen. area. Alvarez and Doku are high up in the tackles stat (Above 80th percentile), while Rashy for example in the 4th and 5th percentile respectively for tackles and interceptions (None of the City wide players this season are below the 40th percentile in at least one of these stats)
Haaland - Decent pass accuracy for a CF, and takes a lot of touches in the box (90th percentile). Hojlund on the other hand takes far less touches in the box (50th percentile), but is well ahead of Haaland in terms of ball carries and take ons. He is also quite high for progressive passes received (78th percentile, whereas Haaland is in the 12th percentile). I think what this shows is that Hojlund is not able to be a fully functioning centre forward in this team, he has to do a lot of the ball carrying in the final third - Whereas he should just be the final piece of the puzzle, that is able to do some passing, but is there solely to score goals.
Putting all this together, if we want to play with more control, I think we need CBs/FBs who are able to pass progressively, while also carrying the ball well. The midfield 3 themselves need to be passing and carrying the ball to a high standard. This composed spine of the team allows our GK to play short/flat passes to distribute the ball. The ability to pass well with composure then leads to more possession, and less defensive actions required from the midfield and defence. The wide attackers also need to pass more often, pass more accurately, pass progressively, carry the ball forwards more often, and contribute defensively at a high level (Either via tackles or interceptions). Our CF then just needs to make more runs into the box, and utilise the passing abilities of the wide players / FBs / midfielders to have more effective touches inside the box. I think Rasmus, Garna, Kobbie, Bruno, Shaw, Licha, Dalot, Onana, Mount are all capable of playing this way. I'm just not convinced with the rest of our squad - Case, Varane, and Rashford just needs to get replaced for cheaper/younger options that suit this kind of football more. Perhaps Bruno needs to go as well, but I think he will improve with better players around him - I don't see him necessarily as the biggest problem, but if he is, he will get found out next to those better players quite quickly. Then we need better squad options who are also good at passing and ball carrying - This means Maguire, Lindelof, AWB, McTominay, Antony, Sancho, Greenwood all need selling. That's 10 players to sell and then 4 defenders, 3 midfielders, and around 3 wide players to add.
10 years of mismanagement + two bad decisions by ETH/Murtogh on Antony and Case (Good player but not for us imo) results in this mess, hope that INEOS themselves see that the squad still needs a lot of work. Oldest player we signed during the Gill/Fergie era was RVP so I hope we return to that policy when we buy from outside, and I hope some more of our youth players will also help us bridge this gap.
This is absolutely top class work. Fair play.While I'm no expert in football statistics, these are my thoughts on what I think is working for City (as an example) when I looked at their individual player stats:
Ederson - In the bottom 2% of goal kicks taken across top 5 leagues in Europe. He's also in the bottom 10% for passes over 40 yards.
Ake, Dias, Stones, Akanji, Walker, Gvardiol - Every single one of those 6 players are at 90+ percentile for passing. If you look at our players, only Martinez is up there with that group, so a good place to start would be those ball playing CBs and FBs. 1 or 2 of these City players are also excellent at progressive carries.
Rodri - leads every stat when it comes to passing, and is also 99th percentile for progressive passes and carries. Case while he's great with the defensive side of things (top percentiles across Europe for tackles, blocks, clearances and aerial duals), is well behind in progressive passing and ball carrying.
Bernardo - Also great with his progressive passes and carries, while being in the 98th percentile both for passes attempted and passes completed. Mainoo might still get there but he doesn't impose himself in a game in that same way yet.
De Bruyne (Small sample size with him this season admittedly) - Also in the top of Europe in his passing stats (passes attempted, progressive passes, progressive carries, take ons and touches in the attacking penalty area). He is 99th percentile for progressive passes received, which shows how well everyone behind him works to get the ball safely to him while being higher up the pitch (And how good he is at receiving). Bruno on the other hand is the only midfielder in our team that is in the 99th percentile for progressive passes but is only in the 25th percentile for progressive passes received and is well behind KdB in those other areas I mentioned earlier, while being ahead in the defensive actions - Which means, he's not able to play a proper No 10 role with this team as he doesn't have the right profile of midfielders/defenders behind him that are ball carriers and most of the time, he's got to do his progressive passing from behind the half way line.
From their usual wide attackers - Doku, Grealish, Alvarez and Foden are high up in those passing/carrying stats. Rashford is well below par in these stats, and Garnacho only excels in progressive carries plus touches in attacking pen. area. Alvarez and Doku are high up in the tackles stat (Above 80th percentile), while Rashy for example in the 4th and 5th percentile respectively for tackles and interceptions (None of the City wide players this season are below the 40th percentile in at least one of these stats)
Haaland - Decent pass accuracy for a CF, and takes a lot of touches in the box (90th percentile). Hojlund on the other hand takes far less touches in the box (50th percentile), but is well ahead of Haaland in terms of ball carries and take ons. He is also quite high for progressive passes received (78th percentile, whereas Haaland is in the 12th percentile). I think what this shows is that Hojlund is not able to be a fully functioning centre forward in this team, he has to do a lot of the ball carrying in the final third - Whereas he should just be the final piece of the puzzle, that is able to do some passing, but is there solely to score goals.
Putting all this together, if we want to play with more control, I think we need CBs/FBs who are able to pass progressively, while also carrying the ball well. The midfield 3 themselves need to be passing and carrying the ball to a high standard. This composed spine of the team allows our GK to play short/flat passes to distribute the ball. The ability to pass well with composure then leads to more possession, and less defensive actions required from the midfield and defence. The wide attackers also need to pass more often, pass more accurately, pass progressively, carry the ball forwards more often, and contribute defensively at a high level (Either via tackles or interceptions). Our CF then just needs to make more runs into the box, and utilise the passing abilities of the wide players / FBs / midfielders to have more effective touches inside the box. I think Rasmus, Garna, Kobbie, Bruno, Shaw, Licha, Dalot, Onana, Mount are all capable of playing this way. I'm just not convinced with the rest of our squad - Case, Varane, and Rashford just needs to get replaced for cheaper/younger options that suit this kind of football more. Perhaps Bruno needs to go as well, but I think he will improve with better players around him - I don't see him necessarily as the biggest problem, but if he is, he will get found out next to those better players quite quickly. Then we need better squad options who are also good at passing and ball carrying - This means Maguire, Lindelof, AWB, McTominay, Antony, Sancho, Greenwood all need selling. That's 10 players to sell and then 4 defenders, 3 midfielders, and around 3 wide players to add.
10 years of mismanagement + two bad decisions by ETH/Murtogh on Antony and Case (Good player but not for us imo) results in this mess, hope that INEOS themselves see that the squad still needs a lot of work. Oldest player we signed during the Gill/Fergie era was RVP so I hope we return to that policy when we buy from outside, and I hope some more of our youth players will also help us bridge this gap.
What would be the maximum number of players INEOS are looking to bring in this summer. Also which positions do you think they are going to prioritise
Agree with the general takeaway here, which is that we need to rebuild the right-side of our defence and the DM spot with quality passers. Liverpool and City play very differently but they've had much better passers than us that suited their style (Liverpool direct with the fullbacks and Van Dijk hitting longer balls, City with good short passers).
Garnacho----Hojlund----------RW
----------Bruno----Mainoo-----------
------------------DM----------------------
Shaw-Lisandro---RCB-------RB
-----------------Onana-----------------
feels like our best chance to have 11 players who are actually strong in terms of ball progression. Rashford and Dalot are decent players but they don't really fit that sort of style so might be better off as subs providing some running. Amad might be the RW, way too early to say, but he does seem to have the link play you want there, if not sure the dribbling ability of a Grealish or Doku.
The DM is the hardest to find, because you probably need someone big enough to help on set pieces with Lisandro being small, but also a quality passer.
In theory, finding a right side of defence that can pass the ball better than Maguire/Varane and Dalot should be achievable if we sign the right players.
So yeah, if this summer we can sign quality passers at DM, RCB and RB and then any productive backup #9, we should in theory be a more consistent team in terms of keeping the ball and dominating games. Then if it isn't working, you probably have to look at moving on from either Bruno or Ten Hag, since the former might still fit a Klopp style okay and maybe you find a manager like that, or you have to hope Bruno can be moved to say PSG, Serie A or Atletico for enough money to sign a more traditional #8 and just play a 4-3-3 and hope that increasing our balance makes a serious difference.
What I feel you've missed here is the vision, tactics and strategy that has been implemented at City for many years. And with Guardiola being at City for almost 8 years, it's provided them with the stability to create a system/style of play that has led them to sign players with a clear and concise idea in mind. And that system or style of play is one that is adopted by most top clubs in England to some degree. And also Guardiola inherited a team from Manuel Pellegrini that was coached to play a system that was quite similar in many aspects along with many quality players that had been signed over the years. They also made a number of poor signings aswell, but when you have Abu Dhabi backing you, then you can turn things around quickly within one or at most two transfer windows. So before you look at the statistics, it's important to understand how City want to play in all phases of play and how they want to go about exerting control with and without the ball.While I'm no expert in football statistics, these are my thoughts on what I think is working for City (as an example) when I looked at their individual player stats:
Ederson - In the bottom 2% of goal kicks taken across top 5 leagues in Europe. He's also in the bottom 10% for passes over 40 yards.
Ake, Dias, Stones, Akanji, Walker, Gvardiol - Every single one of those 6 players are at 90+ percentile for passing. If you look at our players, only Martinez is up there with that group, so a good place to start would be those ball playing CBs and FBs. 1 or 2 of these City players are also excellent at progressive carries.
Rodri - leads every stat when it comes to passing, and is also 99th percentile for progressive passes and carries. Case while he's great with the defensive side of things (top percentiles across Europe for tackles, blocks, clearances and aerial duals), is well behind in progressive passing and ball carrying.
Bernardo - Also great with his progressive passes and carries, while being in the 98th percentile both for passes attempted and passes completed. Mainoo might still get there but he doesn't impose himself in a game in that same way yet.
De Bruyne (Small sample size with him this season admittedly) - Also in the top of Europe in his passing stats (passes attempted, progressive passes, progressive carries, take ons and touches in the attacking penalty area). He is 99th percentile for progressive passes received, which shows how well everyone behind him works to get the ball safely to him while being higher up the pitch (And how good he is at receiving). Bruno on the other hand is the only midfielder in our team that is in the 99th percentile for progressive passes but is only in the 25th percentile for progressive passes received and is well behind KdB in those other areas I mentioned earlier, while being ahead in the defensive actions - Which means, he's not able to play a proper No 10 role with this team as he doesn't have the right profile of midfielders/defenders behind him that are ball carriers and most of the time, he's got to do his progressive passing from behind the half way line.
From their usual wide attackers - Doku, Grealish, Alvarez and Foden are high up in those passing/carrying stats. Rashford is well below par in these stats, and Garnacho only excels in progressive carries plus touches in attacking pen. area. Alvarez and Doku are high up in the tackles stat (Above 80th percentile), while Rashy for example in the 4th and 5th percentile respectively for tackles and interceptions (None of the City wide players this season are below the 40th percentile in at least one of these stats)
Haaland - Decent pass accuracy for a CF, and takes a lot of touches in the box (90th percentile). Hojlund on the other hand takes far less touches in the box (50th percentile), but is well ahead of Haaland in terms of ball carries and take ons. He is also quite high for progressive passes received (78th percentile, whereas Haaland is in the 12th percentile). I think what this shows is that Hojlund is not able to be a fully functioning centre forward in this team, he has to do a lot of the ball carrying in the final third - Whereas he should just be the final piece of the puzzle, that is able to do some passing, but is there solely to score goals.
Putting all this together, if we want to play with more control, I think we need CBs/FBs who are able to pass progressively, while also carrying the ball well. The midfield 3 themselves need to be passing and carrying the ball to a high standard. This composed spine of the team allows our GK to play short/flat passes to distribute the ball. The ability to pass well with composure then leads to more possession, and less defensive actions required from the midfield and defence. The wide attackers also need to pass more often, pass more accurately, pass progressively, carry the ball forwards more often, and contribute defensively at a high level (Either via tackles or interceptions). Our CF then just needs to make more runs into the box, and utilise the passing abilities of the wide players / FBs / midfielders to have more effective touches inside the box. I think Rasmus, Garna, Kobbie, Bruno, Shaw, Licha, Dalot, Onana, Mount are all capable of playing this way. I'm just not convinced with the rest of our squad - Case, Varane, and Rashford just needs to get replaced for cheaper/younger options that suit this kind of football more. Perhaps Bruno needs to go as well, but I think he will improve with better players around him - I don't see him necessarily as the biggest problem, but if he is, he will get found out next to those better players quite quickly. Then we need better squad options who are also good at passing and ball carrying - This means Maguire, Lindelof, AWB, McTominay, Antony, Sancho, Greenwood all need selling. That's 10 players to sell and then 4 defenders, 3 midfielders, and around 3 wide players to add.
10 years of mismanagement + two bad decisions by ETH/Murtogh on Antony and Case (Good player but not for us imo) results in this mess, hope that INEOS themselves see that the squad still needs a lot of work. Oldest player we signed during the Gill/Fergie era was RVP so I hope we return to that policy when we buy from outside, and I hope some more of our youth players will also help us bridge this gap.
Ederson was bought to help aid the development of the positional play principles and it's absolutely imperative for a GK to provide the +1 in possession to create the first numerical superiority for a team that wants to build play from the back. The GK in such a system is the free-man in the build up phase hence City went ahead and signed Ederson from Benfica.
Most of Ake, Dias, Stones, Akanji, Walker, Gvardiol have a 90% or close to 90% pass percentile due to the system they play in and how that system functions with the players they have. I created a thread on here when we were linked to Akanji, (link below) and many thought he wasn't better than what we had. But the big difference imo, in why City's CBs have a advantage over our CBs (without including the pace and athleticism) is that the players they pass the ball to and how those players are better at receiving the pass and playing the game on the half turn in small spaces in comparison to our players. That in itself makes a difference in how a bad pass can be turned into a good pass due to the player receiving the ball having the ability in small spaces to create space and progress play on the turn.
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/manuel-akanji.469058/
Rodri, De Bruyne and Bernardo I will mention together because their performances are linked to one another on the pitch. Rodri is the best player in the world in his position imo, but when you have players like Bernardo and De Bruyne who can receive the pass in the middle third and evade the press on the half turn, then that makes a big difference to why and how City exert zonal and positional control over the opposition. You mention De Bruyne as being in the 99 percentile for passes received but Bruno only being at 25 percentile, and that there is one aspect of why City's first phase (Ederson, CBs, and Rodri) are so good at maintaining a high pass percentile due to the players they're passing the ball to. And Bernardo Silva at the same age as Kobbie Mainoo hadn't even broke into the Benfica first team and was later loaned aged 20 before being sold to the same club he was loaned to at the age of 21.
Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
Rashford and Garnacho are playing in a team that has players that are not good enough playing in small spaces. And when you can't progress play in small spaces, then going direct becomes a option. And those stats will then reflect how the wide forwards of two different teams will appear statistically. Rashford can't be bothered half the time, so I'm not sure how much improvement I expect from him considering his application out of possession is pathetic at times.
Haaland is playing in a team that has much more of the ball in comparison to Hojlund. So City being the more dominant team with and without the ball, will mean they spend more time in the opponent's half hence a striker like Haaland will have more touches in the opposition's box.
If we want to play with more control then we have to work towards creating a team that has the ability to play out from the back and through the thirds. Press high in a collective block with non active players in the press either cutting off passing lanes or marking the opposition forwards tightly. And we need to have the ability to control large space in transition. If we do those things it will create problems for City. I would like to see Mason Mount given a chance in a central role because he does have the ability to receive passes in confined spaces and create half a yard.
Last edited:
Good post, great effort. Has to be said that the missing piece of all this is, how are the teams being setup to play. Pep set City up to play in a way that promotes build up throughout the team. Us on the other hand are set up to go route one a lot more often and our build is slow. This whole idea of standing on the ball with the goalie or CBs to draw the opposition on, then go long rarely ever bears fruit. Yet we do it over and over again. @Adnan well saidWhile I'm no expert in football statistics, these are my thoughts on what I think is working for City (as an example) when I looked at their individual player stats:
Ederson - In the bottom 2% of goal kicks taken across top 5 leagues in Europe. He's also in the bottom 10% for passes over 40 yards.
Ake, Dias, Stones, Akanji, Walker, Gvardiol - Every single one of those 6 players are at 90+ percentile for passing. If you look at our players, only Martinez is up there with that group, so a good place to start would be those ball playing CBs and FBs. 1 or 2 of these City players are also excellent at progressive carries.
Rodri - leads every stat when it comes to passing, and is also 99th percentile for progressive passes and carries. Case while he's great with the defensive side of things (top percentiles across Europe for tackles, blocks, clearances and aerial duals), is well behind in progressive passing and ball carrying.
Bernardo - Also great with his progressive passes and carries, while being in the 98th percentile both for passes attempted and passes completed. Mainoo might still get there but he doesn't impose himself in a game in that same way yet.
De Bruyne (Small sample size with him this season admittedly) - Also in the top of Europe in his passing stats (passes attempted, progressive passes, progressive carries, take ons and touches in the attacking penalty area). He is 99th percentile for progressive passes received, which shows how well everyone behind him works to get the ball safely to him while being higher up the pitch (And how good he is at receiving). Bruno on the other hand is the only midfielder in our team that is in the 99th percentile for progressive passes but is only in the 25th percentile for progressive passes received and is well behind KdB in those other areas I mentioned earlier, while being ahead in the defensive actions - Which means, he's not able to play a proper No 10 role with this team as he doesn't have the right profile of midfielders/defenders behind him that are ball carriers and most of the time, he's got to do his progressive passing from behind the half way line.
From their usual wide attackers - Doku, Grealish, Alvarez and Foden are high up in those passing/carrying stats. Rashford is well below par in these stats, and Garnacho only excels in progressive carries plus touches in attacking pen. area. Alvarez and Doku are high up in the tackles stat (Above 80th percentile), while Rashy for example in the 4th and 5th percentile respectively for tackles and interceptions (None of the City wide players this season are below the 40th percentile in at least one of these stats)
Haaland - Decent pass accuracy for a CF, and takes a lot of touches in the box (90th percentile). Hojlund on the other hand takes far less touches in the box (50th percentile), but is well ahead of Haaland in terms of ball carries and take ons. He is also quite high for progressive passes received (78th percentile, whereas Haaland is in the 12th percentile). I think what this shows is that Hojlund is not able to be a fully functioning centre forward in this team, he has to do a lot of the ball carrying in the final third - Whereas he should just be the final piece of the puzzle, that is able to do some passing, but is there solely to score goals.
Putting all this together, if we want to play with more control, I think we need CBs/FBs who are able to pass progressively, while also carrying the ball well. The midfield 3 themselves need to be passing and carrying the ball to a high standard. This composed spine of the team allows our GK to play short/flat passes to distribute the ball. The ability to pass well with composure then leads to more possession, and less defensive actions required from the midfield and defence. The wide attackers also need to pass more often, pass more accurately, pass progressively, carry the ball forwards more often, and contribute defensively at a high level (Either via tackles or interceptions). Our CF then just needs to make more runs into the box, and utilise the passing abilities of the wide players / FBs / midfielders to have more effective touches inside the box. I think Rasmus, Garna, Kobbie, Bruno, Shaw, Licha, Dalot, Onana, Mount are all capable of playing this way. I'm just not convinced with the rest of our squad - Case, Varane, and Rashford just needs to get replaced for cheaper/younger options that suit this kind of football more. Perhaps Bruno needs to go as well, but I think he will improve with better players around him - I don't see him necessarily as the biggest problem, but if he is, he will get found out next to those better players quite quickly. Then we need better squad options who are also good at passing and ball carrying - This means Maguire, Lindelof, AWB, McTominay, Antony, Sancho, Greenwood all need selling. That's 10 players to sell and then 4 defenders, 3 midfielders, and around 3 wide players to add.
10 years of mismanagement + two bad decisions by ETH/Murtogh on Antony and Case (Good player but not for us imo) results in this mess, hope that INEOS themselves see that the squad still needs a lot of work. Oldest player we signed during the Gill/Fergie era was RVP so I hope we return to that policy when we buy from outside, and I hope some more of our youth players will also help us bridge this gap.
Last edited:
The fact you and I are on the same page with this encourages me greatly.
I’ve been fighting what feels like a tidal wave of Mount bashing trying to justify why he makes sense for the style of play we want to play long term.
He could fail but he’s got the exact profile we’re missing to have the ability to move through the midfield with a bit more incision.
Agree with this and if I am to add we need better cover for Shaw. Ditto on the DM, basically we need a Casemiro with Carrick's passing and that could be difficult to fulfill and expensive to do. Which is why I think, under a new coach, we could postpone the RW signing and look to use Amad more so that we buy real quality at DM, RCB, RB and back up LB.
Whilst the Left side is great they are also injury prone which sees us losing effectiveness on that side for large periods of the season. That would mean we need up to six signings and unless we can make a couple of unheralded ones who are ready to go into the first team we'd need a £300m window.
Oh 100% I agree with you @Adnan - City have a far more stable structure behind the manager with Txiki and co that set out a style of play, player profiles etc. that ensures the right profiles got signed even pre-guardiola and that Pep just built on it. City have a lot more money to spend than us yes, and have probably spent it outside the rules - but Man Utd have also spent a fortune, I expect us to make mistakes as well but we seem to have made far more errors - In that some of these players we signed were not bad players, but that they were signed with no clear (due to the lack of a footballing structure that survives managers) and no consistent (The strategy seemed to change as managers changed) ideology/philosophical direction in terms of how we should set up and play and what our style was going to be. They've also been able to offload players like Sane, Mahrez, Laporte, Ferran etc. for good value - due to success on the pitch of course, our inability to do so really hurts us even more. We talk a little bit about the need for structure in this thread as well: https://www.redcafe.net/threads/uni...is-why-im-happy-with-6th-so-far.481470/page-7
Bruno is a weird one for me because I think he's very capable at receiving the ball, as good as Kevin and Bernardo imo. But in our team, he's the guy who has to do a lot of the line breaking passes (Case does this a bit too, and Eriksen but they're both in the 80th percentiles and well behind in other aspects of their game) instead of receiving them higher up the pitch - With City, players like Bernardo and KDB are able to receive the ball higher up because the progressive passing is done well by all of the players behind them.
What you say about Haaland is true, but it is what we should get our team to do as well right? So we need players capable of playing a disciplined passing/carrying game to a high level, that takes responsibility off Hojlund in terms of carrying, and progressive passing (Hojlund should be doing as little progressive passing and ball carrying as possible). They should facilitate players like Bruno and Hojlund spending as much time in the final third as possible, by being able to play out from the back and through the thirds as you mention.
Conversely we need our wide players to do the defensive work while passing more often - I think we probably agree that Rashford just isn't going to work for us, even though we all see he needs to do more. I would be happy with him being sold tbh, for a player that suits us more. It's not an agenda against Rashford or anything, I think we all see what his weak points are and we know that he isn't going to fix those.
I too rate Mason Mount, and am not ready to write him off yet. I think his ball carrying/passing/receiving abilities were why the manager took him on, it's been disappointing but I think we'll see what he really is about when he gets a good run of games.
Agree with you on Kobbie as well, I think he has the potential to be a world beater, he's nowhere near Bernardo Silva's current iteration yet but he has all the tools to get there one day - What I say (And I'm sure you'd agree) is that we need to see more from the kid, I'd like to see him nail down his starting spot at United due to his own talent not due to a lack of options. He just needs to keep playing and playing and playing this season, and he'll get there.
I think we're mostly in agreement mate, and what I'll do is focus more on what needs to be done (IMO) to close the gap on teams like City, Liverpool and even Arsenal now. I think it's important to understand how the aforementioned clubs went about developing their teams with the intention to play the game in the opponent's half. And playing in a higher defensive line will enable the CBs to be on the half way line whilst having the opposition penned in their own half, which will enable the CBs to contribute to what the team does in possession. So playing closer to the half way line as a CB will require the CBs to contribute on the ball but also require them to defend the channel in 1v1 situations because it'll give the fullbacks more freedom to contribute going forward and also make the high pressing more effective.
If we have Trent Alexander Arnold in our team currently or even in the last 5 years, we'd likely be critical of him because he 'can't' defend. But if you analyse the CBs at City, Liverpool and Arsenal, they have pace and power in abundance to defend the channel in a highline which allows their fullbacks to be attackers first and defenders second. This then allows those fullbacks to push up high and also contribute towards the press whilst the CBs take care of the transition threat in 1v1 situations. We don't have CBs good enough to do that, and eventhough Varane was good in that regard I think we need more than just Varane. So for me I think two CBs with pace and athleticism along with the requisite technical ability are required to raise our level at both progressing the play in possession and also thwarting the threat of the opposition in transition whilst defending the channel without fullback support. It's why I was hoping we signed Akanji on the cheap when he was linked to us due to his ability to defend higher up the pitch.
And I agree with you about Bruno Fernandes, he should be utilised higher up the pitch. And for me he should be utilised as a wide playmaker and not a central playmaker. And the reason for that is due to him not having the bio-mechanics to evade and resist pressure when he has his back towards the opposition goal. So I believe Mason Mount in a more central attacking role is better than Bruno at receiving the pass with his back to goal and he also has the ability to connect and combine with team mates in smaller spaces. Bruno is very good in the final third and has the ability to make a difference with a pass, cross or shot, but he's not someone that is great when he's required to drop deeper to occupy a midfield position when our DM retreats to form a back 3 and vacates his midfield position. And unless the opposition are of the weaker variety, Bruno will struggle to evade/resist the opponent's press.
I think when replacing Casemiro what we need is a player who is capable in possession but also has the ability to defend large spaces in transition. I think we badly lack that player and hence a combination of a physically and athletically inferior midfield gives advantage to teams who have players of that profile. So when you have a good mix of players who are adept at contributing in small spaces in-possession and large spaces out of possession, then things will start to take shape imo.
I'd personally go the young player route to strengthen the team. Players like Yoro, Branthwaite would be my choice for RCB and LCB. And if we can bring in a midfielder with pace and power without sacrifing on technical ability along with a younger midfielder who is of the creative type, then I think that should be a good window as far as raising the physical, athletic and technical level of our first phase both in-possession in the build up phase and out of possession in a higher defensive line against the opponent's transition.
Pretty sure Sir Jim, Brailsford, Omar and Dan Ashworth will want to make a statement and they will all be very joined up.
They will first decide on the players that must be moved out this summer, some on loan done on permanent transfers.
They will fall into definite as who must leave this summer, some players will be released, some loaned, some forced out .
These definites leaver's this summer in my opinion will be ; Antony Martial(Free), Jadon Sancho(30m), Antony (25m), Mason Greenwood(35m), DVB(5m), R Varanne(Free), V Lindelof(15m). Just to move this many players on in one window is a huge task, getting £100-110m for this lot even harder. We probably will sell another £15-25m of youth players like F Pellistri, Hanibal and Alvero Fernandez for FFP profit that’s 10 players out huge task?
That’s why the borderline players like ; AWB, Maguire, Mctominay, C Eriksen and T Malacia will be kept to the winter or following summer before they are released. Assuming ETH gets one final season I think he will have some input into transfers and may be indulged with one player. I add that should ETH not qualify for CL he will be sacked and I’m sure he’s already been told this.
I don’t subscribe to the ridiculous £350-450m that is being banded around. Instead it’s more likely £200m plus players sales so probably £275-325m
I also think ETH will be told that the budget must service all of the positions required and there will be 3 or 4 options but the club will not under any circumstances overpay for any position ;
Positions Required - FB, RCB, LCB, DM/CM, young No 8, RWS, CFW
FB Options (40m) - J Frimpong, D Dumfies, T Hernandez, P Estupinian
RCB Options (45m) - J C Todibo, M Ghuei
E Tapsoba, J Tah
LCB options (45m) - G Incacio , L Yoro , M Brathwaite, A Silva,
DM/Cm (75m) - FDJ, N Barella, J Paulinho, J Neves, A Rabiot(Free), K Thurman
Young number 8’s (15m) - L Redondo, G infantino , Fabricio Diaz, Gustavo Puerta,
Right winger (50m) - M Olise, P Neto, F Chiesa, J Bakayoko
Centre Forward (40m) - J Zirkzee, B Sesko, Santiago Gimenez,
If Rabiot who is on a free was signed or another player that ETH might want in any of the positions needed, then this would free up funds to be spent in another area.
I’m sure this will be the strategy used all be it with some players we as United fans have never heard or thought of.
Can't fault the above. I'd love them to prioritise our defence in the next couple of months and get all FB/CB signings done in the first few weeks of the window (or even better have preagreements already signed).
Anything we hope to achieve is based on competent defenders where every single one of them excels when playing a high line. Get them in early and get them drilling together as soon as humanly possible.
Could we throw Kimmich into DM/CM list as he's in the last year of his contract. So if you had to pick one for each category (obviously can't sign 7 in a window) who are you signing then?
I think that’s a fair request, I’d also throw in the left footed Argentinian CB Facundo Medina at RC Lens as he’s probably available at £20m, this is how smart we need to operate in this summer’s Window, we should have been all over Bournemouths Alex Scott last summer but now he’ll cost £35-45m. We will not be able to buy all our number 1 requests so buying an option that’s not as expensive, personally I’d like Todibo and G Inacio at CB for £80-85m and get rid of Lindeloft And Maguire or Varane.
Yeah I agree playing with a higher line is definitely important, and is key to getting the best out of a GK like Onana. I think it was Jaap Stam in that segment on the Overlap with GNev who was saying that even back in the day, Fergie expected his CBs to get into 1-on-1 situations and still come out on top, whether it's through pace or through reading the game well, that was part of being a CB for Man United. Like yes, there's a 50-50 chance you could lose out in those duels, but by taking that risk and trusting yourself, you get your team attacking the opponent constantly and not giving them a moment to rest.
Re. Bruno - It has to be done for us to see if this works, but what you describe is certainly one way to fit both Bruno and Mount into the team, it was maybe something ETH thought about (when he signed Mount) because he tried Bruno at RW a few times last season? But I see why you'd go with him at RW, almost like we see Bernardo playing on the wing every now and then, fits Bruno's attributes well.
Re. replacing Case - Yeah I think whoever that DM is, they need to be a good passer and ball carrier that covers a lot of ground. Lots of people here saying Conor Gallagher is the guy to do it, but I'm sure United will be looking at a few options. I still wish we went for Declan Rice that summer where we signed Case (Instead of Casemiro), 80M or whatever was quoted seems like a steal when you think about what we paid for Case (Fees + Wages) and what Arsenal paid for Declan this summer. Would like a classic Mourinho style player in this role as well, in the vein of a Makelele, or John Obi Mikel over someone who's more leaning towards a DLP (e.g. Frenkie De Jong).
I don't know much about Yoro, I like Branthwaite but I also like this guy Van Hecke at Brighton because he's up there with his passing stats and I thought he's done quite well for Brighton (https://fbref.com/en/players/4fd08daa/Jan-Paul-van-Hecke). But yes, young players is the route to go for sure, and I think at least 2 CBs and a DM should be priority positions this summer.
Last edited:
If we're serious a good summer would mean a LB, DM, CB, CM, ST, RW and really a GK.
Not a lot.
Not a lot.
I have told you before. A top class LB who is injury-resistant is needed. We should try to lure Theo Hernandez. Luka Shaw can be both a backup for LB and LCB spot. We can't rely on him as a starter.
RB: Frimpong 40m - Release clause
LB: Mendy (Real Madrid) OR L. Hernandez (Bayern) 60m
CB: Todibo 50m
CM: Thuram 30m
CDM: Joao Neves 90m
RW: Pedro 80m
ST: Sesko 50m - Release clause OR Toney 65m
= 400m/415m euro
Greenwood 55m
Bayindir 5m
VDB 20m
Eriksen 10m
Wan-Bissaka 25m
Hannibal 10m
Sancho 40m
Varane 50m
Lindelöf 25m
Martial 15m
Casemiro 60m
ANTONY*
RASHFORD**
= 315m + 100m transfer budget = 415m euro
---------------------------Onana
--Frimpong Todibo Martinez Mendy/Hernandez
----------------Neves Mainoo
-------------Pedro Bruno Garnacho
-----------.---------------Höjlund
-------------- ------------Vitek
--------Dalot Maguire Kambwala Shaw
-----------Thuram McTominey
-------------Antony* Mount Rashford**
----------------Sesko/Toney
*I would sell Antony and rather play Amad but since we paid 90m euro for him and we wont get even 50m for him now, the smartest thing would be to loan him out to a strong La Liga/Seria A team or PSG (maybe even Nce). A stronger team in one of those 3 leagues where a RW is needed and he is "guaranteed" playtime and in that way maybe he can raise his value up a bit and sell him 2025 (if a miracle happens and he starts to play like a 90m euro RW should, then of course we should keep him)
** If he feels that he cant find the happiness back or the motivation to fight for a spot in this new project, and if PSG for real is willing to pay up to 100m euro for him then we should do it and bring in Rafa Leao who has still not signed a new contract with Milan and they seem to be open to sell him to find money for 2-3 players (they are asking for around 100-120m euro)
This would be my open heart surgery for Manchester United summer 2024.
LB: Mendy (Real Madrid) OR L. Hernandez (Bayern) 60m
CB: Todibo 50m
CM: Thuram 30m
CDM: Joao Neves 90m
RW: Pedro 80m
ST: Sesko 50m - Release clause OR Toney 65m
= 400m/415m euro
Greenwood 55m
Bayindir 5m
VDB 20m
Eriksen 10m
Wan-Bissaka 25m
Hannibal 10m
Sancho 40m
Varane 50m
Lindelöf 25m
Martial 15m
Casemiro 60m
ANTONY*
RASHFORD**
= 315m + 100m transfer budget = 415m euro
---------------------------Onana
--Frimpong Todibo Martinez Mendy/Hernandez
----------------Neves Mainoo
-------------Pedro Bruno Garnacho
-----------.---------------Höjlund
-------------- ------------Vitek
--------Dalot Maguire Kambwala Shaw
-----------Thuram McTominey
-------------Antony* Mount Rashford**
----------------Sesko/Toney
*I would sell Antony and rather play Amad but since we paid 90m euro for him and we wont get even 50m for him now, the smartest thing would be to loan him out to a strong La Liga/Seria A team or PSG (maybe even Nce). A stronger team in one of those 3 leagues where a RW is needed and he is "guaranteed" playtime and in that way maybe he can raise his value up a bit and sell him 2025 (if a miracle happens and he starts to play like a 90m euro RW should, then of course we should keep him)
** If he feels that he cant find the happiness back or the motivation to fight for a spot in this new project, and if PSG for real is willing to pay up to 100m euro for him then we should do it and bring in Rafa Leao who has still not signed a new contract with Milan and they seem to be open to sell him to find money for 2-3 players (they are asking for around 100-120m euro)
This would be my open heart surgery for Manchester United summer 2024.
Last edited:
Are we buying back Kovar? Never should have sold him - really good GK
Got me there, meant Vitek! Thanks.
Kovar is better IMO, we should buy him back.