100% Ten Hag players:
Onana, Eriksen, Amrabat (loan) Weghorst (loan), Martinez, Mount, Antony, Malacia.
Total: 6+1 including Amrabat this year
UPDATED!!! United vs Top 6 - An Injury/Availability Analysis - Still Happy With 6th?
- Thread starter BenitoSTARR
- Start date
Onana, Eriksen, Amrabat (loan) Weghorst (loan), Martinez, Mount, Antony, Malacia.
Total: 6+1 including Amrabat this year
What about Casemiro?
But this is IMO wrong way of looking at it. If a manager comes in he will want to keep the core of the team and then replace the weakest parts.
Rashford, Shaw, Dalot, Bruno and Varane are players that no manager would be willing to move - so do we really want to use them as an excuse that "this is not ETH team"?
McTominay was not bought by ETH but seems like he didn't want to let him go, so which category he falls under?
Casemiro doesn't feel like a true Ten Hag signing.
We were chasing De Jong (would have been a true Ten Hag signing) the whole summer, the competition already started, the fans were getting frustrated by the back-to-back losses in the PL and the lack of new midfielders. The board probably informed Ten Hag that acquiring de Jong now would be very difficult, but Casemiro at least was available. Ten Hag caved in because he was already under pressure after losing the first two games and the summer transfer window would close after a week.
I get what you're saying, but the next level for me is to put any manager (Not just ETH) into a system where someone like Dan Ashworth and a network of scouts / football officers identify a play style that works for this league, hire the manager who can play that style (or go with the existing manager if they can play that style), identify the positions that we need to strengthen, put forward 4 or 5 well researched candidates for each position that the manager is happy with (X player name doesn't matter, he just needs to have the attributes that complement the team), and go out and negotiate for those players without breaking the bank. I believe before we look at new managers, we should look at setting up the environment where managers can succeed at United.
ETH came to this team that finished 8th in the PL and had to reset the culture at this club in a number of ways, in addition to taking responsibility in bringing players in - The fact that he came into this shower of shite and got us a very respectable 3rd by playing a bit more controlled style of football than Ole is enough to see his merits. He's struggled a lot this season, and will continue to for the rest of it, but I would like to see what he's capable of in a more supportive/stable environment - If he's not good enough in that sort of environment, then by all means we should go out and get someone else, without sacrificing the style of play/philosophy/players we've been building under the previous manager.
The criticism on his transfers is fair, I think Mount will have a part to play in this team (He's a ball carrying midfielder who would suit a progressive team), but I'm not a fan of Antony, and I'm not a fan of Case (I like the player but don't think he suits how we should play) - I don't think those signings are purely down to ETH, in fact what it shows is that the club only started working on transfers when he came to the club, which is honestly insanity. Contrast that with Mourinho when he came to Chelsea - They had already greenlit Robben and Cech before he came in as coach. Let's just give the guy some time for now imo, assess where we are at the end of the season, and in the meantime get our football structure / transfer team sorted out - sort out our roots before we get to the branches so to speak.
Well I feel that is true, and to be honest I feel he got quite lucky last year because of how good Casemiro was for us, but on the other hand you can't expect to get "a De Jong" for every position. We spent too much time waiting for fdj anyway, this isn't how you build a team.
I want to have a manager who can make it work with what we have (as a squad) and has a vision for the future. I don't see this in Ten Hag. To be honest, he definitely has a vision, just not a very good one imo.
Great post. I know we are moving away from the injury conversation but fans need to avoid looking at this as a binary "should ETH stay or go?" The importance of a manager grows when the structure above them is so poor, now that we are seemingly hiring intelligent football people in those positions, our squad should be run to the point were any high end manager will get us challenging for titles. I hate to put emphasis on City but they have been the benchmark for 10 years. They have challenged and won titles under Manchini, Pellegrini and Pep, of course Pep has put them on a new stratosphere but we wouldn't be falling over ourselves to hire the other two to replace ETH. The Idea is that whether or not ETH is good enough isn't really relevant anymore. If he's not we find the person who is.
I personally have no interest in seeing us replicate Cheaty‘s playstyle, since it is frankly boring, ineffective against sides that sit deep and it would take years to build a squad capable of it.
The tactics we are seeing are geared towards solving our inability the create chances from positions where the opponent has closed all the spaces and plays compact. Even Cheaty struggles to do this.
The players we are targeting certainly have the right profile for what Ten Hag is trying to do: comfortable on the ball and with strong character. To make it work the players need to be decisive and skillful.
Without Martinez and Shaw, we really did fall off a cliff playing out the back, no doubt about it. We will secure a world class cb in summer.
We are making moves also to improve the structures around the team. The problems we have will impact any manager or playstyle.
I think Ten Hag has shown last season he can set up the team tactically to win big games, but the base level to fall back on when things are hard is very low. We fall apart.
The injuries have prevented us from working on consistency and raising this base level.
Exactly, been saying this for years.
Its ironic that some people think there is some cult of manager about keeping ETH, they really dont get it. I want every United manager (regardless of quality) to have the best chance of success. That doesnt mean "400 million spent", it means that there is an actual cohesive plan at the club with the best in class in all departments working together to meet the targets.
I‘ll answer that: without Mainoo, Shaw, Martinez and Casemiro we are completely fecked at this point.
City style is ineffective against sides that sit deep - compared to what style? I don't think City fans complain about this, and just quickly looking at the result their style seems quite effective against those smaller teams that sit back.
I am interested in the bolded part as well, how do you see our style working exactly? I'd describe our style against those teams sitting deep as "push bodies forward". Sometimes work, sometimes it doesn't.
Ole has shown that as well and if I recall correctly, he had a good record against the big teams - and in those games we played very similar to Ten Hag style tbh, so there's a valid comparison. OGS didn't have the injuries as an excuse.
To be honest I think ETH got an "out of jail card" with the injuries and he seems to escape a lot of criticism because he has a "good coach" reputation which is based on Ajax doing well.
Like I said before, we do suffer from injuries but just as much as from poor coaching and poor recruitment.
Watch City‘s game against Everton. Two shots on goal, two goals. They looked stale all game and can imagine the moaning if we played like that (2015/16 start of the season: we were winning but the fans were not happy).
Our style: if all works reasonably well, we play through the opponent and create chances from skillful movement and decision making of our wingers, fb and midfielders. If the attack stalls, recycle and go again. If we lose the ball, gegenpress. If that fails, rest defence.
I agree about Ole‘s good period: he made good use of the players available. The difference with Ten Hag is the build up from the back.
Out of jail card for Ten Hag: nah, he is facing a lot of pressure and so far is dealing with it. The pressure is on, there is no out of jail card.
But you’re arguing he’s a Ten Hag signing or player as if he’s a top choice.
It’s no more Ten Hags squad than it is Ole’s at this point. What it should be is United’s and we build towards a philosophy of playing.
The injuries we’ve had have prevented the few players capable of playing the more progressive style we want from being available.
Im not saying he hasn’t been backed Im saying key parts of his plan that he did sign aren’t available so the changes he wants to make with personnel are going to be slower.
Impossible job is now being made possible.
To be precise, they had 3 shots on goal out of 19 total. They have also limited Everton to basically no threat. Anyway, it has proven to be an effective style over years so I am not going to invest too much time into that discussion. If you don't like their style, that's fine, but it is bloody effective.
I don't understand how this description of "our style" differs from any other team that is aspiring for the top. We do press high, but we are also not effective in this pressing, so hard to praise this approach (it's like praising a player for taking a lot of shots from any random position - something will go in just because of the volume, but usually you just lose the ball). We don't really play out from the back any better compared to Ole days, apart from when Martinez plays, but that seems to be the ONLY difference (we used to rely on Shaw a lot to bring the ball out of defense to midifeld).
That's the key thing to me.
One could argue that the OP isn't showing the full picture, because Ten Hag didn't always pick players even if they were available, and it's a squad game, and similar points. That's all true, but then leads to the point that United's squad is still horribly imbalanced from about a decade of frequent stylistic change (from one coach to another) and scattershot transfer policy.
True, Ten Hag's period did not improve that as much as it could have (whether or not Ten Hag is solely to blame for that), but either way, the fact remains that United's squad makes little sense, as the backups are often nothing like the starting XI players that they're supposed to be able to fill in for. In that context, I would agree that finally installing properly capable people in the football structure should be United's priority, ideally before anything else happens in terms of the coach or even player transfers.
I'll add that I agree that, despite these issues, Ten Hag should probably still have instilled a more coherent style on the team (that then just wouldn't always work out as well, depending on the players available), but that's a topic for a different thread. This one is about first XI availability, and by extension about squad strength - and I think the OP and subsequent discussion make clear what a mess United have been in, in that regard.
Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
Interesting article. Opta gives us a 6% chance of 4th and a 19% chance of 5th. Sounds about right.
I would have us much higher for 5th.
I think Villa losing two more games than us (and us winning at the same time) sounds more likely than it is.
We aren't playing well.
I expect Villa to struggle a lot the upcoming few months. Their defense is decimated, Kamara is out, they will lose their edge there.
Because we would have another embarissing Champions League campaign?
Do you go through life not doing things incase you might look silly or there's a chance it won't go well?
The irony here isn’t lost on me.
good post. What you’re not showing is the overlap -%. United have had multiple injuries to key players at the same time.
See above post for the overlaps.
Spurs did their part today
Fulham gave Villa (who are going through a bit of an injury run of their own) a good game as well. I think top 4 is still open to us if we want it and play for it - Just 6 points between us and spurs now with a game in hand.A near full strength Spurs lose? No it’s not possible.Spurs did their part today
The issue isn't them but whether we're good enough to take advantage. Villa knock off another game keeping the advantage at least the same.Spurs did their part today
I fully agree, it's ours to lose rather than theirs to gain. If we go on and lose tomorrow, we're back to square one. But we've got a realistic shot at top 4 if we play properly.
We are going to use this excuse again today, aren't we? Luton aggregated xG 1,13 in 45 mins against Luton, we had 41% possession - with only Martinez missing.
Maybe if your game plan relies on elite on the ball players and otherwise your team can't play football, then it isn't a very good plan.
Maybe if your game plan relies on elite on the ball players and otherwise your team can't play football, then it isn't a very good plan.
Imagine being a United fan and your first thought after a really tough away win is to post the above.
Oh come on we had a good game, finishing let us down massively today as well with 5-6 clear cut chances wasted on top of the 2 goals - This against a team who have won with 1 goal margins at Kenilworth Road against Spurs, Chelski, City and Arsenal on top of drawing against Liverpool and beating Newcastle. Not a perfect game by any means, but enough to enjoy the win for me.
It was only a tough away win because we are pretty horribly coached. We had a 2 goal lead gifted after 7 minutes. A well coached team controls that game, keeps the ball, limits them to below 10 shots, and just dominates the game like Liverpool, Arsenal and city did. Ten Hags garbage system leads to a basketball game even against lower league opposition. It's pathetic. I don't care about league position this year. I want to see quality coaching, reasons for us to be optimistic that we can play a dominant style of play and actually become a top team. As it is, it's just end to end against whoever and hope our players get the job done. It's the reason why we're horrible against big teams, it's the reason why our form plummeted with injuries more than other teams.
The moaning will stop once our performances aren't shit. It is really quite simple.
We didn't want to blow them away with possession because they are very dangerous on the counter. It was a fine plan, with 2.81xg for us and 1. 76xg against.
You're now just crying for the sake of it, it's pretty sad.
Facking hell imagine winning a game away, again, and hearing the same shite about circumstantial things favouring the team and no credit being given to the manager.
I've seen shit house posts like these after Wolves away, West Ham, Luton, even Villa on the last game.
The blue balls is real with some fans. I'm sure you're waiting to burst the second we drop points again but just try holding on a bit longer.
Agreed can’t believe we lost.
I don't believe such people exist. Nevermind the fact that we need no excuses having won the match, created significantly more than the opposition, and gained ground on the teams around us.
I also wonder if people actually know what possession is. The fact that Luton played more passes than us means nothing when it gets them one big chance versus our four.
Doesn't look like we were effective at preventing Luton to create chances.
We deserved to win, but it was another horrible performance with almost full squad available.
It's not injuries that prevent us from playing good football at the moment.
I'm glad we won. I want to see competent performances against teams like luton. It's not a lot to ask for.
It's almost like after 10 years of moaning, some of us are so scarred we can't separate being a United fan and moaning
It was competent! We should have won by more, we just don’t play the type of football you seem to want.
Shaw wasn't fully fit enough as shown by the sub before HT. Licha is out too, but yeah there were elements that we certainly could have controlled better.
That being said I think our game plan was to soak and hit rather than try and blow them away. Liverpool and Arsenal tried and failed with what appeared an obvious approach.
We weren't superb today, there was a 30 min spell where we were poor. But the entire performance certainly wasn't horrible. That's just overkill.