I applaud your effort to use a statistical analysis to understand our issues, but I believe your conclusion is flawed. % of minutes played does not translate into % of minutes available. What you're proving here is that the team isn't well constructed, that only a handful of players are nailed on starters, and that we rotate a lot - a point you concede when looking at Man City. You also mention that you can't speculate as to why a player wasn't picked and that you can't base it on club announced injuries, because that would be speculation not backed up by data. The problem with that, is that you presuppose that we have a best XI and that whenever available our "best" players will play. Which is also speculation, and arguably a more significant assumption.
Injuries are reported, and data is available to see how many matches a player actually misses because of injuries. The data supports that five players have been out injured for a significant amount of time. Allowing for one game "recovery" in the league per injury - 90 minutes matches not withstanding.
Tyrell Malacia - 0% available
Mason Mount - 21% available
Lisandro Martinez - 29.2% available
Luke Shaw - 37.5% available
Casemiro - 44.8% available
A number of players in your list have not been injured for nearly as much as suggested by their selections.
Garnacho - 100% available
Varane - 83% available Hojlund - 70% available
Mainoo - 58.3%
Varane was left out of the squad for non-injury related reasons twice. There is an argument to be had as to whether the Casemiro, Martinez, Shaw trio is key to our entire team structure, but injury wise your XI actually looks like this - suspensions are ignored, because honestly that is self inflicted. 100% is indicated by no percentage added.
Now, not all of these players were significant last season, when we finished third, so it might be important to look at how much those players have been available this season - and our backups to key positions.
Scott McT 100%
Antony 91% - two matches special leave
Amrabat 87.5%
Eriksen 75%
Maguire 75% Martial 66%
Which shows that there is primarily one position we've not had the personell to cover because of injuries - which is left back. The XI suggested in OP with second choice backups for long term injuries:
A well built squad should be able to handle all but the left back issues. Recruitment has clearly been a problem, but at the same time there are players here that should be performing better on the basis of previous performances and ability (arguably a topic for another thread). Squad management is also an issue that could be, and probably should be, scrutinzed.
@Laurencio
I said I’d come back to this and I will. You’re fast becoming one of my favourite new (I think you’re new) posters. I think this is just a brilliant post so I’m not going to try and poke holes here.
My follow up to this would be do you think our squad is as well constructed as Arsenal, City and Liverpool to deal with those injuries.
So let’s say we only really lost:
Mount
Mainoo
Shaw
Martinez
Casemiro
What does that take out of our squad do you feel that can/cant be replaced?
ETH has purchased players for £380M
This over 8 players.
Do you really think he was planning to play reactive fotball with those? Like he does now?
And he is bad at it as well.
Try guess how many of those actually fits into a ball playing team?
All of them
The problem is that he has done bad transfers, either they are old, and dont have the legs for it, injury prone, or just not good enough.
Thats why he isnt playing modern fotball.
His fault. Nobody else.
You need to stop trying to make him into something he isnt.
He has been bad so far. Its that simple.
Casemiro and Eriksen was his buys as well. Do you know how much salary these guys are on, are you delusional?
Malacia was his buy, dont even start. He is a young player ETH insisted taking with him.
Manager isnt responsible??
I mean, what??
Come to think of it, im done with this thread, it just seems you keep pulling things out of your #¤& as you go along.
Waste of time.
You have no grasp of reality at all.
Sorry, im done.
If City (regrettably) are the standard you can see how every player they have helps their style with excellent individual quality suited to the teams needs.
If we want to play modern football we need a squad full of certain profiles. Now when City, Arsenal or Liverpool get injuries they’ve had the structure in place to have the right kind of profiles in the squad to play to a similar standard and manner. Of course some injuries would be more impactful than others see Liverpool losing Van Dijk or City losing Rodri.
Do we have that squad? And if not is that Ten Hags fault or a wider cultural issue?
Then we could argue well Ten Hag has to develop that style of play but how do you do that without the right personnel?
We could then argue well is Ten Hag the right manager for this current squad? But then if he’s not who is capable of getting them to play modern football without them being the archetypal modern player?
A.) Pep is the best coach of all time when it comes to actually IMPROVING technicality in players far past what they’ve previously shown. Combine that with his obsessive nature when it comes to drilling the nuances of how he wants his players to position themselves between each other in possession and you’ll get a bunch of technical players that have a good amount of easy passes/options available to them.
B.) We all know they have the freedom (especially now) to fire funds at transfers every summer and are fine if they don’t work out.
As far as whether or not we have that squad of ideal profiles/technicality etc, it’s quite clear we don’t. One of United’s biggest failures of the past decade is failing to prioritize technical quality enough in each signing they make. But I don’t think Ten Hag has really shown he’s able to quite identify the profiles either. Now we can blame Murtough and the old guard for transfers sure, but some of that blame also has to go to ETH seeing as he demanded a level of control over transfer as well when he was hired here and by all accounts we’ve managed to get a good percentage of his targets (FdJ and Kane being the obvious misses). But barring Hojlund, he’s yet to make a signing that made real sense profile wise compared to his vision for how he seemingly wants us to play. Even Martinez (his clear “best” signing) isn’t the ideal CB for a team looking to play high in space and press relentlessly to create turnovers, because Licha isn’t as good defending high and wide physically as other teams CB’s even though he might make up for it with his wizardry on the ball and world class anticipation. Its why Arsenal preferred him as a more defensive LB to play that Zinchenko role instead of playing in the middle of the defense where he’d be asked to defend far more space against counters.
Likewise, it’s never felt like ETH has had the urgency to expunge many of the failures of past administrations players to get more of those “ideal” profiles in. Instead he’s tried to fit square pegs into round holes with many of them. Now none of us know whether that’s a directive from those above him, or his own decisions, but it’s quite clear either way that so far it’s been spotty results at best. So if I have a manager that hasn’t quite shown himself to be adept at identifying what he really needs player wise in the transfer market nor within his own squad, do I really want to trust him with another summer of “getting his own players in”? Is it really that difficult to find a manager that can come in and immediately stamp his footprint on the squad to get them playing an obvious/executed style (whether it’s good to watch or not)? For example, I don’t think Ange is some elite manager by any means, but he’s a great example of coming in and immediately imprinting a clear style on a squad that’s repeatable even with lackluster options and not all “ideal profiles”.
So we are left with:
1. A team that can only play “good football” when every single first choice player is available and in decent form, and otherwise are forced to scratch and claw our way through games. I had no issue with that last year as it was his first year/in 4 competitions/lack of competent striker/we needed results. But it feels even watching our first choice team this year that the formula is pretty similar apart from now moving to a single pivot (which seems like a questionable decision considering the lack of athleticism in our midfield options and Casemiro’s rapidly declining legs).
2. A manager that seemingly doesn’t quite know what he wants as far as qualities to add to his team, and either is okay with the players he has in the squad or is unable to bring the hammer down and rid himself of them. I find it difficult to trust that manager through a 3rd consecutive season, even with what will seemingly be an elite recruitment structure we are bringing in, because he hasn’t shown to be a coach capable thus far of drilling in enough repeatable actions/tactics into the current side where I can go “yeah he’s fecked up a bit with his signings but the formula is there and INEOS will fill in the rest this summer”. Right now (as I’ve stated before) I’m open to the idea IF there’s notable progress and success not just with results but moreso the performances in the run in. But I’m extremely skeptical/doubtful that the level of progress I’d like to see will even occur.
Casemiro and Eriksen was his buys as well. Do you know how much salary these guys are on, are you delusional?
Malacia was his buy, dont even start. He is a young player ETH insisted taking with him.
Manager isnt responsible??
I mean, what??
Come to think of it, im done with this thread, it just seems you keep pulling things out of your #¤& as you go along.
Waste of time.
You have no grasp of reality at all.
Sorry, im done.
A.) Pep is the best coach of all time when it comes to actually IMPROVING technicality in players far past what they’ve previously shown. Combine that with his obsessive nature when it comes to drilling the nuances of how he wants his players to position themselves between each other in possession and you’ll get a bunch of technical players that have a good amount of easy passes/options available to them.
B.) We all know they have the freedom (especially now) to fire funds at transfers every summer and are fine if they don’t work out.
As far as whether or not we have that squad of ideal profiles/technicality etc, it’s quite clear we don’t. One of United’s biggest failures of the past decade is failing to prioritize technical quality enough in each signing they make. But I don’t think Ten Hag has really shown he’s able to quite identify the profiles either. Now we can blame Murtough and the old guard for transfers sure, but some of that blame also has to go to ETH seeing as he demanded a level of control over transfer as well when he was hired here and by all accounts we’ve managed to get a good percentage of his targets (FdJ and Kane being the obvious misses). But barring Hojlund, he’s yet to make a signing that made real sense profile wise compared to his vision for how he seemingly wants us to play. Even Martinez (his clear “best” signing) isn’t the ideal CB for a team looking to play high in space and press relentlessly to create turnovers, because Licha isn’t as good defending high and wide physically as other teams CB’s even though he might make up for it with his wizardry on the ball and world class anticipation. Its why Arsenal preferred him as a more defensive LB to play that Zinchenko role instead of playing in the middle of the defense where he’d be asked to defend far more space against counters.
Likewise, it’s never felt like ETH has had the urgency to expunge many of the failures of past administrations players to get more of those “ideal” profiles in. Instead he’s tried to fit square pegs into round holes with many of them. Now none of us know whether that’s a directive from those above him, or his own decisions, but it’s quite clear either way that so far it’s been spotty results at best. So if I have a manager that hasn’t quite shown himself to be adept at identifying what he really needs player wise in the transfer market nor within his own squad, do I really want to trust him with another summer of “getting his own players in”? Is it really that difficult to find a manager that can come in and immediately stamp his footprint on the squad to get them playing an obvious/executed style (whether it’s good to watch or not)? For example, I don’t think Ange is some elite manager by any means, but he’s a great example of coming in and immediately imprinting a clear style on a squad that’s repeatable even with lackluster options and not all “ideal profiles”.
So we are left with:
1. A team that can only play “good football” when every single first choice player is available and in decent form, and otherwise are forced to scratch and claw our way through games. I had no issue with that last year as it was his first year/in 4 competitions/lack of competent striker/we needed results. But it feels even watching our first choice team this year that the formula is pretty similar apart from now moving to a single pivot (which seems like a questionable decision considering the lack of athleticism in our midfield options and Casemiro’s rapidly declining legs).
2. A manager that seemingly doesn’t quite know what he wants as far as qualities to add to his team, and either is okay with the players he has in the squad or is unable to bring the hammer down and rid himself of them. I find it difficult to trust that manager through a 3rd consecutive season, even with what will seemingly be an elite recruitment structure we are bringing in, because he hasn’t shown to be a coach capable thus far of drilling in enough repeatable actions/tactics into the current side where I can go “yeah he’s fecked up a bit with his signings but the formula is there and INEOS will fill in the rest this summer”. Right now (as I’ve stated before) I’m open to the idea IF there’s notable progress and success not just with results but moreso the performances in the run in. But I’m extremely skeptical/doubtful that the level of progress I’d like to see will even occur.
I’m not saying Ten Hag is as good as Pep so let’s just make that clear before anyone claims that’s my argument.
A) Ten Hag is widely reported to be obsessed in training too.
B) Then if we’re playing catch up to a club like that surely a bit more time is needed?
Im glad we agree on the lack of technical quality but Ten Hag is widely reported to have wanted FDJ for example. I also think while you have a point on some aspects of Martinez he’s easily a positive.
It’s also not as easy for him to say sell all these players and get me new ones. Our FFP is tight so unlike other clubs we can’t just sign a new RB or CB every season if the old one don’t suit us quite right. That inability to move out the wrong profile has to sit with a director of football or a wider overseer of the squad.
The formula is similar because we haven’t had the players to change the formula due to injury.
Im very hopeful that INEOS will put in the structure to finally give either Ten Hag or future managers the tools for them to be successful. I’d hope that could be with Ten Hag but if someone else then great too.
Again for what it’s worth really liked this post of yours too. We disagree but I now can see and understand your point well enough that it’s entirely reasonable to feel that way. So thanks for taking the time.
A.) Pep is the best coach of all time when it comes to actually IMPROVING technicality in players far past what they’ve previously shown. Combine that with his obsessive nature when it comes to drilling the nuances of how he wants his players to position themselves between each other in possession and you’ll get a bunch of technical players that have a good amount of easy passes/options available to them.
B.) We all know they have the freedom (especially now) to fire funds at transfers every summer and are fine if they don’t work out.
As far as whether or not we have that squad of ideal profiles/technicality etc, it’s quite clear we don’t. One of United’s biggest failures of the past decade is failing to prioritize technical quality enough in each signing they make. But I don’t think Ten Hag has really shown he’s able to quite identify the profiles either. Now we can blame Murtough and the old guard for transfers sure, but some of that blame also has to go to ETH seeing as he demanded a level of control over transfer as well when he was hired here and by all accounts we’ve managed to get a good percentage of his targets (FdJ and Kane being the obvious misses). But barring Hojlund, he’s yet to make a signing that made real sense profile wise compared to his vision for how he seemingly wants us to play. Even Martinez (his clear “best” signing) isn’t the ideal CB for a team looking to play high in space and press relentlessly to create turnovers, because Licha isn’t as good defending high and wide physically as other teams CB’s even though he might make up for it with his wizardry on the ball and world class anticipation. Its why Arsenal preferred him as a more defensive LB to play that Zinchenko role instead of playing in the middle of the defense where he’d be asked to defend far more space against counters.
Likewise, it’s never felt like ETH has had the urgency to expunge many of the failures of past administrations players to get more of those “ideal” profiles in. Instead he’s tried to fit square pegs into round holes with many of them. Now none of us know whether that’s a directive from those above him, or his own decisions, but it’s quite clear either way that so far it’s been spotty results at best. So if I have a manager that hasn’t quite shown himself to be adept at identifying what he really needs player wise in the transfer market nor within his own squad, do I really want to trust him with another summer of “getting his own players in”? Is it really that difficult to find a manager that can come in and immediately stamp his footprint on the squad to get them playing an obvious/executed style (whether it’s good to watch or not)? For example, I don’t think Ange is some elite manager by any means, but he’s a great example of coming in and immediately imprinting a clear style on a squad that’s repeatable even with lackluster options and not all “ideal profiles”.
So we are left with: 1. A team that can only play “good football” when every single first choice player is available and in decent form, and otherwise are forced to scratch and claw our way through games. I had no issue with that last year as it was his first year/in 4 competitions/lack of competent striker/we needed results. But it feels even watching our first choice team this year that the formula is pretty similar apart from now moving to a single pivot (which seems like a questionable decision considering the lack of athleticism in our midfield options and Casemiro’s rapidly declining legs).
2. A manager that seemingly doesn’t quite know what he wants as far as qualities to add to his team, and either is okay with the players he has in the squad or is unable to bring the hammer down and rid himself of them. I find it difficult to trust that manager through a 3rd consecutive season, even with what will seemingly be an elite recruitment structure we are bringing in, because he hasn’t shown to be a coach capable thus far of drilling in enough repeatable actions/tactics into the current side where I can go “yeah he’s fecked up a bit with his signings but the formula is there and INEOS will fill in the rest this summer”. Right now (as I’ve stated before) I’m open to the idea IF there’s notable progress and success not just with results but moreso the performances in the run in. But I’m extremely skeptical/doubtful that the level of progress I’d like to see will even occur.
Is it? Because I just mentioned Ange right after that who also had a load of injures yet spurs style was pretty consistent. The aforementioned City can play their entire youth and reserve team yet the approach is the same even if results aren’t always as stellar.
Is it? Because I just mentioned Ange right after that who also had a load of injures yet spurs style was pretty consistent. The aforementioned City can play their entire youth and reserve team yet the approach is the same even if results aren’t always as stellar.
For all the talk about Ange, he plays pretty much a chaotic approach with a super high line. He gets credit for racking up points early in the season where they had games they won that could’ve easily gone the other way. The narrative around him would be very different otherwise.
City can play some very boring games when they don’t have their key performers for prolonged periods of time, where they revert to handball -like football where they just pass it around waiting for a miracle.
Liverpool last season played like garbage when they had injuries.
Newcastle this season have put in very inconsistent performances too because of their injuries.
Barca and Real this season too have been hit by injuries and their football can be pretty ugly at times as well.
So yeah, virtually every coach needs their strongest side to play the best brand of football they want.
For all the talk about Ange, he plays pretty much a chaotic approach with a super high line. He gets credit for racking up points early in the season where they had games they won that could’ve easily gone the other way. The narrative around him would be very different otherwise.
City can play some very boring games when they don’t have their key performers for prolonged periods of time, where they revert to handball -like football where they just pass it around waiting for a miracle.
Liverpool last season played like garbage when they had injuries.
Newcastle this season have put in very inconsistent performances too because of their injuries.
Barca and Real this season too have been hit by injuries and their football can be pretty ugly at times as well.
So yeah, virtually every coach needs their strongest side to play the best brand of football they want.
I think you’re confusing applauding results or pure montage worthy football with my desire for a system and style to be in place that’s repeatable regardless if a few players might be injured.
I don’t really care that Ange had them top of the league for a bit as much as I’m noting that he almost instantly put them into a system and style that produced good execution and pleasing football even after they were hit injuries. Same with City. Yes it’s boring, but it’s largely the same system and principles being repeated even if slightly less effective without KDB or Rodri providing the world class touch to the game.
Real Madrid isn’t a great example because they’ve largely been the most adaptable squad and club in modern football game to game (which is why they have been unbelievable in the UCL year after year).
But because we have a CB and LB missing for most of the year, many are willing to excuse almost 5 months straight of being dominated by lesser sides coupled with some of the worst results in club history over a short period. It got to the point that we just ceded attempting any sort of control or normal attacking patterns and moved to playing like stoke city in 2012 having McTominay box crash constantly hoping to bag a goal. If a managers system is that fragile, then the system itself is flawed.
I think you’re confusing applauding results or pure montage worthy football with my desire for a system and style to be in place that’s repeatable regardless if a few players might be injured.
I don’t really care that Ange had them top of the league for a bit as much as I’m noting that he almost instantly put them into a system and style that produced good execution and pleasing football even after they were hit injuries. Same with City. Yes it’s boring, but it’s largely the same system and principles being repeated even if slightly less effective without KDB or Rodri providing the world class touch to the game.
Real Madrid isn’t a great example because they’ve largely been the most adaptable squad and club in modern football game to game (which is why they have been unbelievable in the UCL year after year).
But because we have a CB and LB missing for most of the year, many are willing to excuse almost 5 months straight of being dominated by lesser sides coupled with some of the worst results in club history over a short period. It got to the point that we just ceded attempting any sort of control or normal attacking patterns and moved to playing like stoke city in 2012 having McTominay box crash constantly hoping to bag a goal. If a managers system is that fragile, then the system itself is flawed.
City playing boring football is their equivalent of dropping deep and waiting it out.
Ange « style » is said to be recognizable only because he has wins, there’s a real bias because they’ve played some very bad football at times where the only recognizable pattern was « play a suicidal high line ».
You talk about us giving up control but never did the coach say he wanted United to be a team in control, he literally said the opposite, transition team. Which means that his football of coming out the back to then quickly attack can easily turn into chaos if the personnel to get the ball out from the back is missing or not technically good enough.
The style is easy to spot, he wants a 3-2-4-1 on the ball with one of the full backs tucking in midfield with the DM to form a box shape with the two pressing 8s. The aim is not control but to play as high up the pitch as possible, even at the cost of defensive balance. It’s possible when you have a specific kind of defenders.
If anything Ten Hag is too stubborn to try something more balanced, which leads to the kind of incomprehensible football we play.
EDIT: we didn’t only have a CB and LB missing for 5 months though. Our covers were missing and in some instances even our 3rd choices were missing
I think you’re confusing applauding results or pure montage worthy football with my desire for a system and style to be in place that’s repeatable regardless if a few players might be injured.
I don’t really care that Ange had them top of the league for a bit as much as I’m noting that he almost instantly put them into a system and style that produced good execution and pleasing football even after they were hit injuries. Same with City. Yes it’s boring, but it’s largely the same system and principles being repeated even if slightly less effective without KDB or Rodri providing the world class touch to the game.
Real Madrid isn’t a great example because they’ve largely been the most adaptable squad and club in modern football game to game (which is why they have been unbelievable in the UCL year after year).
But because we have a CB and LB missing for most of the year, many are willing to excuse almost 5 months straight of being dominated by lesser sides coupled with some of the worst results in club history over a short period. It got to the point that we just ceded attempting any sort of control or normal attacking patterns and moved to playing like stoke city in 2012 having McTominay box crash constantly hoping to bag a goal. If a managers system is that fragile, then the system itself is flawed.
Based on a discussion in the Erik Ten Hag thread I present in my view the biggest reason we've failed to perform consistently at a high level whilst other teams haven't suffered as much in the top 6.
Each side in the Top 6 (Liverpool, City, Arsenal, Spurs, Villa and United) have been broken down player by player into their % mins in the PL also with their (in my opinion) best XI and a brief comment as to how this looks in terms of key player losses and who has played in their stead. It also take a small look into the future in some cases with current injuries.
75% or above 50% to 74% 0% to 49%
* = GK or additional circumstance (e.g. Loan)
Liverpool Alisson 88%
Trent 75% Van Dijk 89%Konate 53%Robertson 40% Mac Allister 68% Jones 43% Szobozslai 77%
Salah 81%____________Díaz 69%
Núñez 66%
The only position up for debate here is Jones but as you can see Liverpool's overall availability taking into account rotations is healthy. The best players, Salah, Van Dijk, Alisson, Szobozslai and Trent all have played at least 3/4 of the PL season minutes to date with Robertson and Thiago arguably the only significant players absent through injury for a longer period. The rest of the squad has been used more in rotation as and when. Joe Gomez is the player who I wouldn't consider in the strongest XI but has played more minutes than Robertson. Injury wise Matip is ACL so out for the season, Szobozsali has a hamstring issue but could be back next week and Thiago is unlikely to return anytime soon but its not a 'big big injury', Trent has a knee issue unsure if he will or won't play on it and Salah has a thigh injury but could return this week.
Alisson 88% Kelleher 13%*
Adrian 0%*
TAA 75% Bradley 7%
Van Dijk 89% Konate 53%
Joe Gomez 54% Matip 36%
Quansah 16%
Robertson 40%
Tsimikas 31%
Mac Allister 68% Endo 38%
Bajcetic 0%
Szoboszlai 77% Jones 43%
Thiago 0%
Gravenberch 38%
Salah 81% Diaz 69% Jota 47%
Gakpo 43%
Elliot 26%
Doak 1%
Núñez 66%
Manchester City Ederson 92%
Walker 92% Dias 76%Ake 66% Gvardiol 71% Rodri 83% De Brunye 11%Bernardo 73% Foden 90% Haaland 72% Doku 52%
Now there could be arguments made for the inclusion of several players here such is the strength in depth of the Man City squad but even allowing for any change you'd choose to make the only long term injuries have been De Brunye (massive of course) and Stones. The rest have been used in rotation as you would expect with a squad as strong as City's. I'd say they are the 2nd least affected side by injuries in the top 6. The only positions I consider up for debate in this starting XI are Doku and Ake. Álvarez is actually the most played outfield player with 94% mins played and would be the one to replace De Brunye in the most played XI. Currently no players are significantly injured Kovacic has a knock, Gvardiol being assessed and Grealish a hip issue being assessed.
Ederson 92% Ortega 8%*
Carson 0%*
Walker 92% Lewis 22%
Dias 76% Aké 66% Stones 29% Akanji 64%
Gvardiol 71% Gomez 1%
Rodri 83% Kovacic 42%
Nunes 30%
De Brunye 11% Bernardo Silva 73%
Foden 90% Doku 52% Grealish 34%
Bobb 6%
Haaland 72% Álvarez 94%
Arsenal Raya 83%
White 84% Saliba 100% Gabriel 84%Zinchenko 66% Rice 96%
Ødegaard 87%Havertz 67% Saka 92%Jesus 51% Martinelli 72%
Arsenal's first choice XI feels a bit more clear cut but I would accept an argument for Partey over Havertz. Regardless you can see they've had their best XI available the majority of the season the only exception being Jesus who still have over 1/2 the available minutes for Arsenal. Partey and Timber stand out as longer injuries to squad players but beyond that they've not been hit too badly. Saliba 100% is mind boggling considering his role! Timber is expected back April, Zinchenko has a calf issue but could be back this week, Partey has a hamstring issue no idea when back, Vieira is back in the next few weeks and Jesus has a knee problem but could be back within days too.
Raya 83% Ramsdale 21%
Hein 0%*
White 84% Tomiyasu 29%
Soares 1%
Saliba 100%
Gabriel 84% Timber 2%
Kiwor 20%
Zinchenko 66%
Rice 96% Partey 12%
Jorginho 23%
Elneny 1%
Ødegaard 87% Havertz 67% Vieira 11%
Smith Rowe 10%
Martinelli 72% Trossard 38%
Saka 92% Nelson 6%
Jesus 51% Nketiah 47%
Tottenham Hotspur Vicario 100%
Porro 96% Romero 71% van de Ven 60%Udogie 82% Sarr 59% Bissouma 58% Kulusevski 86%Maddison 53%Son 80% Richardson 59%
The Spurs midfield pairing is very much up for debate so argue amongst yourselves as to who you'd swap in but this myth of Spurs injuries have been as bad across the season just isn't statistically true. They have absolutely been impacted by losing Maddison but beyond that the loss isn't anywhere near our levels. They are I'd say the 2nd most affected by injuries out of the top 6. No major injuries to report currently but Lo Celso back this week, Solomon out for the foreseeable with knee issues and Sessegnon no idea.
Aston Villa Martinez 96%
Konsa 93%Carlos 54%Torres 70%
Cash 69%Kamara 77% Luiz 91%Digne 71% McGinn 95% Diaby 68%Watkins 98%
Aston Villa are very hard to pin to a formation so I've tried my best to show what I believe is in Emery's mind the best mix of players in roughly the right places. So don't shoot me! The only notable lower % player is Carlos but with Konsa able to play RCB/CB and Cash they've rotated well. Diaby has been rotated with Bailey for their pacey outlet option so overall looking very healthy with key players like Martinez, Konsa, Luis, McGinn and Watkins all in the 90+% bracket. Mings is long term injured but not a player any Villa fan would consider in their best XI. They have more recently picked up injuries and I would expect them to struggle more now with Kamara and Cash out. Kamara is out long term knee, Buendia is in recovery (knee) our for the season likely, Mings similar, Konsa likely out for 3/4 weeks.
Manchester United Onana 100%
Dalot 89% Varane 42% Martinez 26% Shaw 43%
Casemiro 42% Mainoo 36% Garnacho 66% Bruno 96% Rashford 76% Højlund 64%
Now we can debate Dalot vs AWB, I've gone Dalot because he's had the most minutes and so as not to be accused of trying to hide high % playing 'starters', and I've opted Varane over Maguire but I'd argue Varane is better and it's only a 5% difference in minutes share.
When you consider Mainoo's minutes would likely have gone to Mount while injured we've been really royally fecked over by injuries. Look at us compared to the top 6 sides.
Dealing with some level of injury is absolutely to be expected but 5 of what many would consider our best XI haven't played more than 57% of our PL matches so far this season. Our best CB has missed 3/4 of the season so far and looks to be missing even more. And we've been without our best midfield pairing for 64% of the season. Now add in Champions League, League Cup and FA cup fixtures and you can see why we might have found it difficult.
The impact injuries have had on our defence is unprecedented we have one player (Dalot) who has been able to play 50%+ of our games.
In midfield due to injuries and fitness we've had to rely on McTominay for 56% of our game time but with the squad back and fit you can see his role is reduced to clutch player (impact sub).
Our record since having most players back has been 4 wins in 4. But we have Martinez out until April earliest, Martial out till April, Malacia expected back end of Feb/Early march, Shaw hopefully back this weekend. Mount also back hopefully next week. Wan Bissaka out for the foreseeable.
BenitoSTARRamong the best and most informed threads posted on here.
Those stats and figures speak for themselves. To have any type of a reasonable successful season you need to have a solid defence with little chopping and changing going on. United never had that this season and currently on their 13th different centre back pairing?
Even Klopp's Liverpool a few seasons ago struggled badly when they were injury hit defensively.
hopefully with INEOS now in charge they'll be looking for a solution to the injury first and foremost before thinking of replacing the manager. Something is not right. And no matter how many quality players we have if theyre always injured we're fecked.
Nothing worse than ive been called directly several times allready on this forum.
But i guess im a "newb".
Right.
Feel free to remove my account, im not looking for an echo chamber.
Btw, wouldnt condescending be if i said they didnt understand?
Wich i didnt.
Based on a discussion in the Erik Ten Hag thread I present in my view the biggest reason we've failed to perform consistently at a high level whilst other teams haven't suffered as much in the top 6.
Each side in the Top 6 (Liverpool, City, Arsenal, Spurs, Villa and United) have been broken down player by player into their % mins in the PL also with their (in my opinion) best XI and a brief comment as to how this looks in terms of key player losses and who has played in their stead. It also take a small look into the future in some cases with current injuries.
Thanks for the appreciation towards my post in the other thread @BenitoSTARR and @moses ! I'm glad you quoted me here because this is the first time I saw this thread - Love how you presented your stats in the OP, always wondered how we compared against the field in terms of injuries this season. I feel like the current team position is where we are due to a number of reasons:
1. Injuries @Laurencio makes a good case here as well to add to yours, in that simply looking at pick rate is not enough. As you've rightly pointed out though imo, missing Shaw, Case and Licha (Automatic starters) have still hurt us big time this season - huge players for us last season that lifted our team. I would make a safe bet that (out of the very high impact players for each top 6 team) only KDB has missed an equivalent/greater amount of games to these 3 players?
2. Squad depth (Lack of)
As @711 pointed out - City (And I would add Liverpool and Arsenal to a lesser extent to this list) just have similar profiles of players to just step in and keep the train on the tracks when key players drop out for some periods. Mentally as well, all their squad players as well as starters are ready to fight for every point - while 2-3 different players seemed to let us down every match. Having a squad of similarly talented players means managing fatigue and injuries is also easier with them.
3. Transfer policy (or lack of) + Player power
As @Valencia Shin Crosses states, we have had problems with signing players of a high technical quality and in identifying the right profiles of players. All the coaches at United from Moyes to Ten Hag have made bad signings (In fairness even SAF did). Imo, while the coach too should take blame for it (especially in the case of Antony and Case for me with ETH), United have always had this 'hybrid' coaching role (Jose talked a bit about this in Rio's podcast yesterday, and said this especially made his job hard), which is only now getting revamped under INEOS. Even ETH said yesterday, how important it is to have good people around you at a huge club like United. This way of doing things has been going on for 10+ years now, and the reasons we have problems in point 1 and 2 now is our repeated inability/unwillingness to fix point 3. Case in point being how RVP was our oldest signing of the Gill era, whereas post Gill we have signed many players over 30 on crazy wages. Changing the manager won't necessarily fix the problem, we need to change the way we work with our manager, whether it's Ange, De Zerbi or ETH. For this summer's transfers to be effective, we needed to have implemented a structure last season - Just shows how behind we are, when we haven't been doing this for 10 years.
While I agree with you Valencia, that Pep is able to coach this elite passing game to his players better than others, you still need great passers of the ball to build the passing team you want - his players needed to begin with a base level (Which he's elevated). But if he started with a Rashford or an older Ibra or a Balotelli for example he'd struggle to play that passing game, it's difficult to get your tactics working in a team with players that are just not suited to it. We can talk about being ruthless, but even Jose who is usually one of the most ruthless of all, wasn't able to get rid of a few players he didn't rate at United. The coach has to be ruthless, but the structure around the coach (that usually outlasts the coach) also has to be ruthless, which then puts the fear of god into these players - doesn't matter how talented you / the media think you are, if you think you are bigger than Man United you won't be part of Man United, because we have a conveyor belt full of talent waiting to stick a knife in your back and replace you, whether you're a player or a manager or a staff member.
Another issue is the kind of mental profiles of the players we target - We seem to attract a few negative personalities here and there, coupled with the lack of a footballing structure which ensures that bad players outlast bad managers (Honestly in hindsight, I wouldn't even call Jose that bad, enjoyed Ole ball as well for what it's worth), we just get stuck with a bunch of semi-talented prima-donnas who only show up on the pitch when they need new contracts. Part of it is the players, but a larger part of it is how the club just goes along with it - quite rudderless in that sense.
Honestly for me personally, ETH is one of our lesser problems right now because the coach should just be a cog in this machine - I'm more concerned about the structure we put in place to get our transfers right (and their vision around style of play / player profiles) without getting fleeced constantly in the future, what we do with our 1B of debt, and how we build a squad that can play commanding possession football while navigating FFP after a failed decade, when we need about 10 players in the squad to even think of adopting a possession based style.
On a side note, if you feel that we play without any tactics under ETH like I used to think - I'd recommend this YT channel called Scarlet Report, he highlighted quite a few things I didn't pick up when I watched games in real time.
Thanks for the appreciation towards my post in the other thread @BenitoSTARR and @moses ! I'm glad you quoted me here because this is the first time I saw this thread - Love how you presented your stats in the OP, always wondered how we compared against the field in terms of injuries this season. I feel like the current team position is where we are due to a number of reasons:
1. Injuries @Laurencio makes a good case here as well to add to yours, in that simply looking at pick rate is not enough. As you've rightly pointed out though imo, missing Shaw, Case and Licha (Automatic starters) have still hurt us big time this season - huge players for us last season that lifted our team. I would make a safe bet that (out of the very high impact players for each top 6 team) only KDB has missed an equivalent/greater amount of games to these 3 players?
2. Squad depth (Lack of)
As @711 pointed out - City (And I would add Liverpool and Arsenal to a lesser extent to this list) just have similar profiles of players to just step in and keep the train on the tracks when key players drop out for some periods. Mentally as well, all their squad players as well as starters are ready to fight for every point - while 2-3 different players seemed to let us down every match. Having a squad of similarly talented players means managing fatigue and injuries is also easier with them.
3. Transfer policy (or lack of) + Player power
As @Valencia Shin Crosses states, we have had problems with signing players of a high technical quality and in identifying the right profiles of players. All the coaches at United from Moyes to Ten Hag have made bad signings (In fairness even SAF did). Imo, while the coach too should take blame for it (especially in the case of Antony and Case for me with ETH), United have always had this 'hybrid' coaching role (Jose talked a bit about this in Rio's podcast yesterday, and said this especially made his job hard), which is only now getting revamped under INEOS. Even ETH said yesterday, how important it is to have good people around you at a huge club like United. This way of doing things has been going on for 10+ years now, and the reasons we have problems in point 1 and 2 now is our repeated inability/unwillingness to fix point 3. Case in point being how RVP was our oldest signing of the Gill era, whereas post Gill we have signed many players over 30 on crazy wages. Changing the manager won't necessarily fix the problem, we need to change the way we work with our manager, whether it's Ange, De Zerbi or ETH. For this summer's transfers to be effective, we needed to have implemented a structure last season - Just shows how behind we are, when we haven't been doing this for 10 years.
While I agree with you Valencia, that Pep is able to coach this elite passing game to his players better than others, you still need great passers of the ball to build the passing team you want - his players needed to begin with a base level (Which he's elevated). But if he started with a Rashford or an older Ibra or a Balotelli for example he'd struggle to play that passing game, it's difficult to get your tactics working in a team with players that are just not suited to it. We can talk about being ruthless, but even Jose who is usually one of the most ruthless of all, wasn't able to get rid of a few players he didn't rate at United. The coach has to be ruthless, but the structure around the coach (that usually outlasts the coach) also has to be ruthless, which then puts the fear of god into these players - doesn't matter how talented you / the media think you are, if you think you are bigger than Man United you won't be part of Man United, because we have a conveyor belt full of talent waiting to stick a knife in your back and replace you, whether you're a player or a manager or a staff member.
Another issue is the kind of mental profiles of the players we target - We seem to attract a few negative personalities here and there, coupled with the lack of a footballing structure which ensures that bad players outlast bad managers (Honestly in hindsight, I wouldn't even call Jose that bad, enjoyed Ole ball as well for what it's worth), we just get stuck with a bunch of semi-talented prima-donnas who only show up on the pitch when they need new contracts. Part of it is the players, but a larger part of it is how the club just goes along with it - quite rudderless in that sense.
Honestly for me personally, ETH is one of our lesser problems right now because the coach should just be a cog in this machine - I'm more concerned about the structure we put in place to get our transfers right (and their vision around style of play / player profiles) without getting fleeced constantly in the future, what we do with our 1B of debt, and how we build a squad that can play commanding possession football while navigating FFP after a failed decade, when we need about 10 players in the squad to even think of adopting a possession based style.
On a side note, if you feel that we play without any tactics under ETH like I used to think - I'd recommend this YT channel called Scarlet Report, he highlighted quite a few things I didn't pick up when I watched games in real time.
Really nice post, and i agree to everything besides the bolded part.
ETH is the man in charge and as the Manager the man with most influence to change things directly, over time, with both tactics, economy and transfers.
Thats just not a cog in the machine, or i could have done the job.
I havent seen anything yet that makes me think ETH will be the man that takes this team to the next lvl.
Why would anybody just asume he will transfer this kind of chaos fotball, to anything that will make us compete at the highest lvl. I mean, its there to see every week?
No progress, just random stuff happening, and bad fotball for the most part.
And i do feel the manager will have the last word in most transfer situations, wich again shapes the squad and our expectations of it.
I feel ETH have made a continious series of transfers that has really just made it even more difficult going forward. If this is the result of him alone or a team around him im not sure, but i do know it will stop our progress the next couple years dead in the tracks.
And that wasnt what we needed or asked for when we appointed ETH.
Thanks for the appreciation towards my post in the other thread @BenitoSTARR and @moses ! I'm glad you quoted me here because this is the first time I saw this thread - Love how you presented your stats in the OP, always wondered how we compared against the field in terms of injuries this season. I feel like the current team position is where we are due to a number of reasons:
1. Injuries @Laurencio makes a good case here as well to add to yours, in that simply looking at pick rate is not enough. As you've rightly pointed out though imo, missing Shaw, Case and Licha (Automatic starters) have still hurt us big time this season - huge players for us last season that lifted our team. I would make a safe bet that (out of the very high impact players for each top 6 team) only KDB has missed an equivalent/greater amount of games to these 3 players?
2. Squad depth (Lack of)
As @711 pointed out - City (And I would add Liverpool and Arsenal to a lesser extent to this list) just have similar profiles of players to just step in and keep the train on the tracks when key players drop out for some periods. Mentally as well, all their squad players as well as starters are ready to fight for every point - while 2-3 different players seemed to let us down every match. Having a squad of similarly talented players means managing fatigue and injuries is also easier with them.
3. Transfer policy (or lack of) + Player power
As @Valencia Shin Crosses states, we have had problems with signing players of a high technical quality and in identifying the right profiles of players. All the coaches at United from Moyes to Ten Hag have made bad signings (In fairness even SAF did). Imo, while the coach too should take blame for it (especially in the case of Antony and Case for me with ETH), United have always had this 'hybrid' coaching role (Jose talked a bit about this in Rio's podcast yesterday, and said this especially made his job hard), which is only now getting revamped under INEOS. Even ETH said yesterday, how important it is to have good people around you at a huge club like United. This way of doing things has been going on for 10+ years now, and the reasons we have problems in point 1 and 2 now is our repeated inability/unwillingness to fix point 3. Case in point being how RVP was our oldest signing of the Gill era, whereas post Gill we have signed many players over 30 on crazy wages. Changing the manager won't necessarily fix the problem, we need to change the way we work with our manager, whether it's Ange, De Zerbi or ETH. For this summer's transfers to be effective, we needed to have implemented a structure last season - Just shows how behind we are, when we haven't been doing this for 10 years.
While I agree with you Valencia, that Pep is able to coach this elite passing game to his players better than others, you still need great passers of the ball to build the passing team you want - his players needed to begin with a base level (Which he's elevated). But if he started with a Rashford or an older Ibra or a Balotelli for example he'd struggle to play that passing game, it's difficult to get your tactics working in a team with players that are just not suited to it. We can talk about being ruthless, but even Jose who is usually one of the most ruthless of all, wasn't able to get rid of a few players he didn't rate at United. The coach has to be ruthless, but the structure around the coach (that usually outlasts the coach) also has to be ruthless, which then puts the fear of god into these players - doesn't matter how talented you / the media think you are, if you think you are bigger than Man United you won't be part of Man United, because we have a conveyor belt full of talent waiting to stick a knife in your back and replace you, whether you're a player or a manager or a staff member.
Another issue is the kind of mental profiles of the players we target - We seem to attract a few negative personalities here and there, coupled with the lack of a footballing structure which ensures that bad players outlast bad managers (Honestly in hindsight, I wouldn't even call Jose that bad, enjoyed Ole ball as well for what it's worth), we just get stuck with a bunch of semi-talented prima-donnas who only show up on the pitch when they need new contracts. Part of it is the players, but a larger part of it is how the club just goes along with it - quite rudderless in that sense.
Honestly for me personally, ETH is one of our lesser problems right now because the coach should just be a cog in this machine - I'm more concerned about the structure we put in place to get our transfers right (and their vision around style of play / player profiles) without getting fleeced constantly in the future, what we do with our 1B of debt, and how we build a squad that can play commanding possession football while navigating FFP after a failed decade, when we need about 10 players in the squad to even think of adopting a possession based style.
On a side note, if you feel that we play without any tactics under ETH like I used to think - I'd recommend this YT channel called Scarlet Report, he highlighted quite a few things I didn't pick up when I watched games in real time.
The way I see it, we overperfomed last season.
This season we’re back to a more regular level, with a team that can at best be 3rd under the right circumstances.
With shite circumstances such as what we experienced, well best you can do is try not to fall too hard.
Exactly. We have the most expensive squad ever and an increasingly strong flow of academy players. This whole thread is another pointless excuse for ETH and his under delivering. What is laughable is its also the players not following instructions that leaves us wide open, rather than our appalling team shape that is clearly what the manager wants
ETH has purchased players for £380M
This over 8 players.
Do you really think he was planning to play reactive fotball with those? Like he does now?
And he is bad at it as well.
Try to guess how many of those actually fits into a ball playing team?
All of them
The problem is that he has done bad transfers, either they are old, and dont have the legs for it, injury prone, or just not good enough.
Thats why he isnt playing modern fotball.
His fault. Nobody else.
You need to stop trying to make him into something he isnt.
He has been bad so far. Its that simple.
This argument is really dense and boring to be honest.
Chelsea have spent over a billion in the last 12 months and have a steady flow of academy players. City are under investigation for a number of irregularities (as are Chelsea). There’s plenty of factors a play with a number of different teams.
The most obtuse aspect of the money angle is Ten Hag has been at United for one full season. He’s had two transfers windows both of which have been restricted somewhat due to FFP. He should have had four windows but the club has had to ditch both Januarys due to mismanaged financials.
Secondly, do people really thing this is Ten Hag’s squad after one season and two windows? When you compare 9/10 years of Klopp and Pep, 5 years of Arteta? These clubs have assembled squads with consistent management, and recruitment, over a prolonged period and have undergone the open heart surgery Rangnick advised United needed. This hasn’t happened at United yet but fortunately INEOS look like they know what’s needed and are making positive moves quickly.
Chelsea has fast tracked their reboot, spent over a billion and burnt through two coaches over the past 12 months. They sit firmly behind United and look in absolute disarray after being widely held as the team with the best set up and structure for many years. They are a shambles.
It’s all good and well saying ‘Ten Hag has had 380m’, ‘United have one of the most expensive squads’ but without the actual context it’s a really stupid angle.
As @Laurencio has pointed out most of the players available this season haven’t been Ten Hag signings and have been at the club for several years already.
As @BenitoSTARR has pointed out other squads are understandably more capable of absorbing injuries as they have managers and recruitment set ups which are well established and have contributed to complete overhauls of what they inherited.
Am I saying Ten Hag has been perfect? Absolutely not. He’s made mistakes and there are legitimate concerns about play style and the acquisition of Antony and Mount.
To totally ignore the actual data and context here though is beyond naive and reeks of an agenda in my opinion, as does the lazy money argument when the bulk of the squad have been at the club before Ten Hag and those signed during his tenure have come through a dysfunctional recruitment set up which is now finally getting attention.
We definitely over achieved last season whilst our rivals (Chelsea, Liverpool, Spurs) underachieved. I’m not sure how anyone can dispute that.
This argument is really dense and boring to be honest.
Chelsea have spent over a billion in the last 12 months and have a steady flow of academy players. City are under investigation for a number of irregularities (as are Chelsea). There’s plenty of factors a play with a number of different teams.
The most obtuse aspect of the money angle is Ten Hag has been at United for one full season. He’s had two transfers windows both of which have been restricted somewhat due to FFP. He should have had four windows but the club has had to ditch both Januarys due to mismanaged financials.
Secondly, do people really thing this is Ten Hag’s squad after one season and two windows? When you compare 9/10 years of Klopp and Pep, 5 years of Arteta? These clubs have assembled squads with consistent management, and recruitment, over a prolonged period and have undergone the open heart surgery Rangnick advised United needed. This hasn’t happened at United yet but fortunately INEOS look like they know what’s needed and are making positive moves quickly.
Chelsea has fast tracked their reboot, spent over a billion and burnt through two coaches over the past 12 months. They sit firmly behind United and look in absolute disarray after being widely held as the team with the best set up and structure for many years. They are a shambles.
It’s all good and well saying ‘Ten Hag has had 380m’, ‘United have one of the most expensive squads’ but without the actual context it’s a really stupid angle.
As @Laurencio has pointed out most of the players available this season haven’t been Ten Hag signings and have been at the club for several years already.
As @BenitoSTARR has pointed out other squads are understandably more capable of absorbing injuries as they have managers and recruitment set ups which are well established and have contributed to complete overhauls of what they inherited.
Am I saying Ten Hag has been perfect? Absolutely not. He’s made mistakes and there are legitimate concerns about play style and the acquisition of Antony and Mount.
To totally ignore the actual data and context here though is beyond naive and reeks of an agenda in my opinion, as does the lazy money argument when the bulk of the squad have been at the club before Ten Hag and those signed during his tenure have come through a dysfunctional recruitment set up which is now finally getting attention.
Nothing worse than ive been called directly several times allready on this forum.
But i guess im a "newb".
Right.
Feel free to remove my account, im not looking for an echo chamber.
Btw, wouldnt condescending be if i said they didnt understand?
Wich i didnt.
You have made 112 posts and your user profile has 4 notes from staff. Just be less abrasive. And it's not about an echo chamber, but it's a forum for discussion not a boxing ring.
Also we don't need your permission to remove your account.
You are right the argument is boring. But lets have a few more facts. One of the reason we have had 2 January blanks is the amount we spent on ETH's targets, especially Antony and Mount, there is £145m plus wages on two players who are not good enough. Antony had already been ruled out by our scouts, while Mount had one stand out season with Chelsea, was already on the down and beginning to suffer injuries, and Chelsea were v happy to see him go. Plus noone still knows where he is meant to fit into the team. ETH also wasted most of his summer on a pointless and obsessive pursuit of FDJ, which we all knew was going nowhere. A common feature here is his obsession with signing former players or those who played against him in the Dutch league. So while our recruitment is awful, ETH has in many ways made it even worse. He has also at times chosen not to play the players he signed.
You have made 112 posts and your user profile has 4 notes from staff. Just be less abrasive. And it's not about an echo chamber, but it's a forum for discussion not a boxing ring.
Also we don't need your permission to improve your account.
You are right the argument is boring. But lets have a few more facts. One of the reason we have had 2 January blanks is the amount we spent on ETH's targets, especially Antony and Mount, there is £145m plus wages on two players who are not good enough. Antony had already been ruled out by our scouts, while Mount had one stand out season with Chelsea, was already on the down and beginning to suffer injuries, and Chelsea were v happy to see him go. Plus noone still knows where he is meant to fit into the team. ETH also wasted most of his summer on a pointless and obsessive pursuit of FDJ, which we all knew was going nowhere. A common feature here is his obsession with signing former players or those who played against him in the Dutch league. So while our recruitment is awful, ETH has in many ways made it even worse. He has also at times chosen not to play the players he signed.
Ten Hag doesn’t agree fees or wages. You know this.
You can argue that Antony doesn’t look good enough and we are all struggling to see where Mount fits, but in terms of finances that’s nothing to do with the coach and sits firmly with the dysfunctional recruitment set up. A set up that if run correctly would be taking this whole process away from Ten Hag, in terms of identifying players, and presenting him options which suit our financial picture and squad building strategy.
You are right the argument is boring. But lets have a few more facts. One of the reason we have had 2 January blanks is the amount we spent on ETH's targets, especially Antony and Mount, there is £145m plus wages on two players who are not good enough. Antony had already been ruled out by our scouts, while Mount had one stand out season with Chelsea, was already on the down and beginning to suffer injuries, and Chelsea were v happy to see him go. Plus noone still knows where he is meant to fit into the team. ETH also wasted most of his summer on a pointless and obsessive pursuit of FDJ, which we all knew was going nowhere. A common feature here is his obsession with signing former players or those who played against him in the Dutch league. So while our recruitment is awful, ETH has in many ways made it even worse. He has also at times chosen not to play the players he signed.
I can appreciate Antony’s effort and defensive contribution, and he does help us sustain attacks, I do think we need a bit more from our RW. He’s not enough of a creative or goal threat on top of the above. Ten Hag isn’t responsible for the price we paid or the wages though that comes down to our negotiating team. But I’d also argue plenty of other clubs make poor transfers and realise a player isn’t quite working for them. The difference is they have the structure to not overpay in the first place so replacing isn’t as big an issue.
Mount hasn’t just had one stand out season at Chelsea that’s disingenuous to say he won their player of the year award two years on the bounce 20/21 and 21/22 seasons so again that’s objectively not true if we’re wanting to deal in facts.
Chelsea were happy to see him go? Prove it please. From all reports I’ve seen the opposite is true.
Again did ETH waste the window or did our negotiation team? Going for a world class ball playing CM as a target is sensible for the technical level that our midfield is/was sorely lacking. It’s a big reason why Mount was signed he can play on the back foot and is very good at finding space and linking.
Every manger chooses not to use players they/the club has signed for them. I’m not sure that is a point really worth making.
We definitely over achieved last season whilst our rivals (Chelsea, Liverpool, Spurs) underachieved. I’m not sure how anyone can dispute that.
This argument is really dense and boring to be honest.
Chelsea have spent over a billion in the last 12 months and have a steady flow of academy players. City are under investigation for a number of irregularities (as are Chelsea). There’s plenty of factors a play with a number of different teams.
The most obtuse aspect of the money angle is Ten Hag has been at United for one full season. He’s had two transfers windows both of which have been restricted somewhat due to FFP. He should have had four windows but the club has had to ditch both Januarys due to mismanaged financials.
Secondly, do people really thing this is Ten Hag’s squad after one season and two windows? When you compare 9/10 years of Klopp and Pep, 5 years of Arteta? These clubs have assembled squads with consistent management, and recruitment, over a prolonged period and have undergone the open heart surgery Rangnick advised United needed. This hasn’t happened at United yet but fortunately INEOS look like they know what’s needed and are making positive moves quickly.
Chelsea has fast tracked their reboot, spent over a billion and burnt through two coaches over the past 12 months. They sit firmly behind United and look in absolute disarray after being widely held as the team with the best set up and structure for many years. They are a shambles.
It’s all good and well saying ‘Ten Hag has had 380m’, ‘United have one of the most expensive squads’ but without the actual context it’s a really stupid angle.
As @Laurencio has pointed out most of the players available this season haven’t been Ten Hag signings and have been at the club for several years already.
As @BenitoSTARR has pointed out other squads are understandably more capable of absorbing injuries as they have managers and recruitment set ups which are well established and have contributed to complete overhauls of what they inherited.
Am I saying Ten Hag has been perfect? Absolutely not. He’s made mistakes and there are legitimate concerns about play style and the acquisition of Antony and Mount.
To totally ignore the actual data and context here though is beyond naive and reeks of an agenda in my opinion, as does the lazy money argument when the bulk of the squad have been at the club before Ten Hag and those signed during his tenure have come through a dysfunctional recruitment set up which is now finally getting attention.
First team "Ten Hag's" players:
Onana, Hojlund, Antony, Casemiro, Evans, Eriksen, Amrabat, Martinez, Mount - 9.
"Non Ten Hag's players" - Bruno, Dalot, Rashford, McTominay, Maguire, Lindelof, Shaw, Varane, AWB, Martial - 10.
6 out of those 10 (Bruno, Dalot, Rashford, McTominay, Shaw and Varane) are key players and realistically any other manager would only get rid of McTominay, the rest would still be core of the team.
Mainoo and Garnacho are from academy, not sure where to they fall, probably to "ETH players" bin as well.
The only players that we can really label as "ETH did not want" are Maguire, Martial and maybe AWB - only Maguire plays an important role this season.
First team "Ten Hag's" players:
Onana, Hojlund, Antony, Casemiro, Evans, Eriksen, Amrabat, Martinez, Mount - 9.
"Non Ten Hag's players" - Bruno, Dalot, Rashford, McTominay, Maguire, Lindelof, Shaw, Varane, AWB, Martial - 10.
6 out of those 10 (Bruno, Dalot, Rashford, McTominay, Shaw and Varane) are key players and realistically any other manager would only get rid of McTominay, the rest would still be core of the team.
Mainoo and Garnacho are from academy, not sure where to they fall, probably to "ETH players" bin as well.
The only players that we can really label as "ETH did not want" are Maguire, Martial and maybe AWB - only Maguire plays an important role this season.
Apparently ETH needs 5 years, another £400m and perfect conditions, no injuries, including global warming making Old Trafford drier and warmer. Then we can judge, maybe.
First team "Ten Hag's" players:
Onana, Hojlund, Antony, Casemiro, Evans, Eriksen, Amrabat, Martinez, Mount - 9.
"Non Ten Hag's players" - Bruno, Dalot, Rashford, McTominay, Maguire, Lindelof, Shaw, Varane, AWB, Martial - 10.
6 out of those 10 (Bruno, Dalot, Rashford, McTominay, Shaw and Varane) are key players and realistically any other manager would only get rid of McTominay, the rest would still be core of the team.
Mainoo and Garnacho are from academy, not sure where to they fall, probably to "ETH players" bin as well.
The only players that we can really label as "ETH did not want" are Maguire, Martial and maybe AWB - only Maguire plays an important role this season.
First team "Ten Hag's" players:
Onana, Hojlund, Antony, Casemiro, Evans, Eriksen, Amrabat, Martinez, Mount - 9.
"Non Ten Hag's players" - Bruno, Dalot, Rashford, McTominay, Maguire, Lindelof, Shaw, Varane, AWB, Martial - 10.
6 out of those 10 (Bruno, Dalot, Rashford, McTominay, Shaw and Varane) are key players and realistically any other manager would only get rid of McTominay, the rest would still be core of the team.
Mainoo and Garnacho are from academy, not sure where to they fall, probably to "ETH players" bin as well.
The only players that we can really label as "ETH did not want" are Maguire, Martial and maybe AWB - only Maguire plays an important role this season.
Do you expect Ten Hag to replace the core of the team (Varane, Dalot, Shaw, Rashford, Bruno, McTominay*) anytime soon? Do you think until they are replaced we can use the "it's not Ten Hag's team" excuse?
I believe not, because they are good players that ANY manager would build the team around - this is also what Ten Hag has been doing, just not very efficiently so far. So yes, this is Ten Hag's team.
You can't spend 150m on Antony and Mount and they moan about not having money for priority signings - I don't think ETH is the only one to blame, but surely he takes majority of the blame here. The money excuse isn't really there for Ten Hag. You could make a case he shouldn't be in charge of transfers, but you can't complain about the club not providing the budget.
We don't play Football Manager on cheat codes. If you spend money on players which are not priority signings (RW/#10), you can't really moan about not having money for Centre Back. A result of that is Jonny Evans (who is doing quite nicely tbh) - a consequence of Ten Hag choices.
Do you think he was promised infinite budget when coming here?
We don't play Football Manager on cheat codes. If you spend money on players which are not priority signings (RW/#10), you can't really moan about not having money for Centre Back. A result of that is Jonny Evans (who is doing quite nicely tbh) - a consequence of Ten Hag choices.
Do you think he was promised infinite budget when coming here?
What? I never said this, I am arguing that we have Evans because there was no money left in the bank. We did have a money for 3x overpaid right winger and 3rd #10 in the club though. So I feel this "it's not ETH squad" is an excuse, just very weak.
I don't mind Evans as 5th choice CB, but you have to consider he's 4th Centre Back that prevents ETH from implementing his "style" (added to Varane, Maguire, and Lindelof). If you can't play football without elite on the ball centreback and left back, maybe you prioritise them as signing instead of going for another #10 (especially since apparently Mainoo was key element in ETH plan this season, as this thread also suggests). This is all consequence of other choices.
Right Winger was not a priority signing, we already had Sancho, Pellistri, even Bruno, maybe Garnacho + Amad close. It was managers decision to go big for RW, and it was definitely ETH decision to go for Antony. Again, it has serious consequences, and it makes this "he wasn't backed in the transfer window" excuse weak as well.
Damn autocorrect.