Are Bruno and Rashford a problem?

Borys

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When Rashford can be arsed, he's still a potential starter for a top club but barring last season, he hasn't been arsed for 3 or 4 years now. Fernandes is a major problem though, his inability to lead, to create chances and importantly retain possession in the final 3rd has been awful for a long time now.

When I look at what we need to bring in and our FFP restrictions, these two being moved on is a no brainer. Both are on mega money they don't deserve, both could generate decent fees still and neither are really good enough if we have aspirations to be competing at the top level each season.
Both are replaceable too. Rashford for me isn't a big loss because he can barely play as a striker, and we can probably get a decent LW for the money we get for Marcus. Bruno doesn't need to be replaced in the first place, selling him should get us some decent money to get CB/CM and maybe we can make it work with the offensive players we have + new LW and CF (that we need anyway).

I don't think they will be sold this summer, but I would get rid of them if we really want to rebuild.
 

afatzp

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It really takes gut to make the decision of letting go Bruno and Rashford , and I deeply hope the new management team see the need and make it happen.

The two of them pretty much summarize the reasons why we can't control the midfield and lack of productivity in the attack. If anyone disagrees, you just need to watch Odegaard and Martinelli in Arsenal games. They perform their functions for the team: Odegarrd strings the play together and shows for the balls in pocket space, Martinelli stretches the opponents vertical with his on or off ball movements. That's just LWF and AMC/MC should do, also nothing too fancy / spectacular. They just keeps the intensity and discipline of repeating the same work, then the team creates chances and control the game.

The high turnover rates with both of their quality determine that we will not be able to form any systematic style whatsoever if they are the core players in the game plan. We are more betting the luck and their forms , and ironically making their stats look great and fall into the circular reference to prove that they are important players for the team.
 

sugar_kane

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I don't think we'll sell both and I'd sell Rashford every day over Bruno. The latter works 100 times harder and shouldn't be a priority to sell. The only change I'd make is to rotate him a bit more often to keep him fresh and focused.
 

Desert Eagle

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It really takes gut to make the decision of letting go Bruno and Rashford , and I deeply hope the new management team see the need and make it happen.

The two of them pretty much summarize the reasons why we can't control the midfield and lack of productivity in the attack. If anyone disagrees, you just need to watch Odegaard and Martinelli in Arsenal games. They perform their functions for the team: Odegarrd strings the play together and shows for the balls in pocket space, Martinelli stretches the opponents vertical with his on or off ball movements. That's just LWF and AMC/MC should do, also nothing too fancy / spectacular. They just keeps the intensity and discipline of repeating the same work, then the team creates chances and control the game.

The high turnover rates with both of their quality determine that we will not be able to form any systematic style whatsoever if they are the core players in the game plan. We are more betting the luck and their forms , and ironically making their stats look great and fall into the circular reference to prove that they are important players for the team.
Exactly this especially the last paragraph. They are both easily replaced but it will require cahones from the people upstairs. Just like when ETH first arrived myself and plenty others said how he handles these two players will determine how successful he is as manager, the same will be true for the ineos regime. The best thing will be to get rid of both asap and reinvest into a new vision of the football we want to play. If like ETH they choose to make these two the focal point of their project then we're fecked.
 

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I think ETH signed Mount with the idea of rotating him in for Bruno and eventually pushing Bruno out, I mean I love Bruno for his passion and brilliance, but when he is not pulling a rabbit out of a hat he is absolutely undermining us, the problem is when the entire focus of the team is to go through him he is exposed time after time, in a better set up where he was not the sole focus in midfield I think he would improve

Rashford is at his best unplayable, as good as it gets in world football, however if you expect more from him than what he gives then you have a problem, I know football has changed but can you imagine some of our greats like RVN, Cole, Yorke, Cantona, Berbatov etc... tracking back and putting in the hard yards, play Rashford to his strengths is a set up that suits him and he will be killer, is that Utd? if he moves and they utilise him well he will be outstanding

Yesterday vs Liverpool, Garnacho was just as guilty as Rashford for laziness and offered about as much going forward (not meaning to knock AG BTW just saying) the only winger we have that actually works hard in defence is Antony and he is a disaster in attack, in an ideal world/set up we would have players that do everything and do it at 100% all the time, but we don't I would rather have a solid defence and midfield and let the attackers attack, again I know football has moved on, but can you imagine a Irwin and Parker consistently being further forward than their wingers, or Kanchelskis and Sharpe covering as FBs every attack?

I would really keep Rashford over Bruno, but I would only keep either if they are going to be used to their strengths, the problem is the expectations for both are unrealistic, not saying that excuses them just saying it leads to disappointment
 

Doracle

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Yesterday vs Liverpool, Garnacho was just as guilty as Rashford for laziness and offered about as much going forward
This is just untrue. Rashford did more defensive work and offered a lot more going forwards. Off the top of my head, Rashford put in two really dangerous crosses, played a nice first time pass into Bruno to create space (who should have set Garnacho through) and released Hojlund with a lovely bit of skill and through ball (who should have got a shot off). He also had nearly twice as many touches despite playing 10 minutes less.

I rated Rashford a 7 yesterday and Garnacho a 5. That isn’t to say that I thought Garnacho did anything particularly wrong - he just struggled to get involved.
 

stepic

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In fairness we’ll never control a game with these tactics, no matter the personnel.

The boss had a chance to swap out both yesterday with tonnes of options on the bench for once (Mount, Antony & Eriksen), but kept them on for most of the game & was happy with the performance showing our great potential.

I’m not gonna argue anyone should be sold based on these tactics, it’s just absolute chaos.
The tactics are catering to both of their style of play. He won’t play a more controlling, possession based style because it doesn’t suit our supposedly best players.

It’s a reflection on ETH as well, in trying to come up with a tactic around the players rather than imposing his own style. That’s why he’s destined to fail because the players he is catering to means we’re so exposed. It’s even more insane when you consider that neither of these two players are actually that great.
 

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Rashford is at his best unplayable, as good as it gets in world football, however if you expect more from him than what he gives then you have a problem, I know football has changed but can you imagine some of our greats like RVN, Cole, Yorke, Cantona, Berbatov etc... tracking back and putting in the hard yards, play Rashford to his strengths is a set up that suits him and he will be killer, is that Utd? if he moves and they utilise him well he will be outstanding

Yesterday vs Liverpool, Garnacho was just as guilty as Rashford for laziness and offered about as much going forward (not meaning to knock AG BTW just saying) the only winger we have that actually works hard in defence is Antony and he is a disaster in attack, in an ideal world/set up we would have players that do everything and do it at 100% all the time, but we don't I would rather have a solid defence and midfield and let the attackers attack, again I know football has moved on, but can you imagine a Irwin and Parker consistently being further forward than their wingers, or Kanchelskis and Sharpe covering as FBs every attack?
The state of this, feck me. He doesnt even start for England. Why are you comparing him to a load of centre forwards?
 
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The tactics are catering to both of their style of play. He won’t play a more controlling, possession based style because it doesn’t suit our supposedly best players.
You honestly think these tactics cater to anyone? :lol:
It’s bringing out the worst version of every single one of our players, besides possibly Onana who’s getting a lot of work.
 

ifightdragons

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You honestly think these tactics cater to anyone? :lol:
It’s bringing out the worst version of every single one of our players, besides possibly Onana who’s getting a lot of work.
You must be laughing at yourself, because he is completely correct.

This counterattacking, chaotic style is absolutely what suits players like Bruno and Rashford. All of their "good" performances for United have come when games are transitional, and we have minimum control.

I say "good" because they honestly almost never play a full, good game. They are generally poor in every season, but go through patches with displays of individual moments in games. Bruno's goal yesterday is the perfect example. He scored a brilliant goal. Yet he played really awfully. And that's also how they usually play at their "best", more or less. Last year, Rashford scored 30 goals. But rarely, if ever, did he actually have a really good game for 90 minutes. It's all just moments here and there of individual brilliance. That's their true level.
 
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FootballAI

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If we have to choose, I'd rather we sell Bruno but definitely keep Rashford. Rashford is definitely rated high by clubs and fans outside of United. If you ask Arsenal and Pool to take Rashford he would be in their starting line up for sure, maybe not for City since they have Foden.
 

Josep Dowling

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The tactics are catering to both of their style of play. He won’t play a more controlling, possession based style because it doesn’t suit our supposedly best players.

It’s a reflection on ETH as well, in trying to come up with a tactic around the players rather than imposing his own style. That’s why he’s destined to fail because the players he is catering to means we’re so exposed. It’s even more insane when you consider that neither of these two players are actually that great.
Every single manager that has come in post Fergie has done the same. Anyone thinking we are going to shift Rashford and Bruno on their salaries are in for a rude surprise. Both won’t leave, same as Sancho.
 

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This is just untrue. Rashford did more defensive work and offered a lot more going forwards. Off the top of my head, Rashford put in two really dangerous crosses, played a nice first time pass into Bruno to create space (who should have set Garnacho through) and released Hojlund with a lovely bit of skill and through ball (who should have got a shot off). He also had nearly twice as many touches despite playing 10 minutes less.

I rated Rashford a 7 yesterday and Garnacho a 5. That isn’t to say that I thought Garnacho did anything particularly wrong - he just struggled to get involved.
Garnacho was more industrious than Rashford yesterday I thought? Neither did any damage anyway.
 

Alpha 1

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I think ETH signed Mount with the idea of rotating him in for Bruno and eventually pushing Bruno out, I mean I love Bruno for his passion and brilliance, but when he is not pulling a rabbit out of a hat he is absolutely undermining us, the problem is when the entire focus of the team is to go through him he is exposed time after time, in a better set up where he was not the sole focus in midfield I think he would improve

Rashford is at his best unplayable, as good as it gets in world football, however if you expect more from him than what he gives then you have a problem, I know football has changed but can you imagine some of our greats like RVN, Cole, Yorke, Cantona, Berbatov etc... tracking back and putting in the hard yards, play Rashford to his strengths is a set up that suits him and he will be killer, is that Utd? if he moves and they utilise him well he will be outstanding

Yesterday vs Liverpool, Garnacho was just as guilty as Rashford for laziness and offered about as much going forward (not meaning to knock AG BTW just saying) the only winger we have that actually works hard in defence is Antony and he is a disaster in attack, in an ideal world/set up we would have players that do everything and do it at 100% all the time, but we don't I would rather have a solid defence and midfield and let the attackers attack, again I know football has moved on, but can you imagine a Irwin and Parker consistently being further forward than their wingers, or Kanchelskis and Sharpe covering as FBs every attack?

I would really keep Rashford over Bruno, but I would only keep either if they are going to be used to their strengths, the problem is the expectations for both are unrealistic, not saying that excuses them just saying it leads to disappointment
You're clearly overrating Rashford. He has never been the level you say he is including last season.

Bruno's biggest problem is that he tries too many Hollywoodballs and regularlygives it away with the occasional assist or goal in between; an archtypal stats player. He is also overrated by most United fans. Neither would get into Ferguson's best teams' first 11.

If we have to choose, I'd rather we sell Bruno but definitely keep Rashford. Rashford is definitely rated high by clubs and fans outside of United. If you ask Arsenal and Pool to take Rashford he would be in their starting line up for sure, maybe not for City since they have Foden.
Again overrating Rashford.
 

LDUred

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They're not going anywhere and that's fine with me.

We're just not functioning as a unit, so it's no surprise that our creative players are misfiring.

The spine of the team needs to be addressed and ETH needs to bring in players who are fast, physical, and work hard to win back the ball. The team is too slow to play the transitional football he's after and we're being played through the middle, putting strain on the back four and GK.

If we can add some physical presence and energy to that midfield, Bruno and Rashford will start to tick. We saw with Kambwala how much it helps to have a bit of pace and strength in the side. Winning ground duels, competing physically, is where we're lacking.

Yes, I know Rashford is part of that solution but our midfield is just so easy to play against, bolstering that will improve those two and give them a base.
 

Rojofiam

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barring last season, he hasn't been arsed for 3 or 4 years now
19/20, 20/21 and 22/23 all very good seasons for Rashford

21/22 and 23/24 both dogshit seasons

The opposite is true of your statement, 3 good seasons out of the last 5

The 2 bad seasons also happened where we were collectively very bad and severely underachieving, so 2 nightmare seasons

He's never been a problem when we were good as a team
 

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I just cant wrap my head around why these two are lumped together. Is it because they are our biggest profiles?

Rashford has shown repetedly he cant be arsed if hes not feeling like it. There are numerous games just this season where he has strolled casually around while his teammates are pusting a gut to cover spaces. Never mind his diabolical bottom level, that kind of attitude is poison in a team sport and is simply inexcusable.

Bruno is frustrating for sure, and hes a bit to likely to have a good old moan when things are not going his way, but you can never fault his desire or work rate. Bruno tries to press, everyone can see that, but both the coaching and the set up is simply not up to standard and as mentioned earlier here, its just pure chaos.
 
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You must be laughing at yourself, because he is completely correct.

This counterattacking, chaotic style is absolutely what suits players like Bruno and Rashford. All of their "good" performances for United have come when games are transitional, and we have minimum control.
Nar, their best performances by far have come when we’ve had some control and our transitional game has been on point.

How any poster can argue that any player plays better in an absolutely chaotic system like this is nuts.

If they both thrive more in this system? Rather than the more controlled football we played for a large part of last system, explain why both have been wank this year ? Doesn’t logic say they both suit a team that can control AND transition fast?

Have a think man.
 

Pughnichi

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I just cant wrap my head around why these two are lumped together. Is it because they are our biggest profiles?

Rashford has shown repetedly he cant be arsed if hes not feeling like it. There are numerous games just this season where he has strolled casually around while his teammates are pusting a gut to cover spaces. Never mind his diabolical bottom level, that kind of attitude is poison in a team sport and is simply inexcusable.

Bruno is frustrating for sure, and hes a bit to likely to have a good old moan when things are not going his way, but you can never fault his desire or work rate. Bruno tries to press, everyone can see that, but both the coaching and the set up is simply not up to standard and as mentioned earlier here, its just pure chaos.
Bruno’s issue isn’t effort. Its application. Yeah he runs around a lot…some might say too much - to the detriment of the team when he’s pressing when he shouldn’t be because the team isn’t with him and subsequently leaves a big hole. But more worrying is his ball retention. He gives it away far too much. Look at Bernardo and Odegaard. How they look after the ball but still threaten is night and day to what Bruno offers
 

FootballAI

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You're clearly overrating Rashford. He has never been the level you say he is including last season.

Bruno's biggest problem is that he tries too many Hollywoodballs and regularlygives it away with the occasional assist or goal in between; an archtypal stats player. He is also overrated by most United fans. Neither would get into Ferguson's best teams' first 11.


Again overrating Rashford.
How can you be sure you are not under-rating him? He scored 30+ last season, this season he really missed Shaw I think, Wan Bissaka has been very poor with providing attack support.
 

izak

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Replacing both should be seen as necessary, but it has to be with players that would improve our team play.

We'll do right to sign players that are calm under pressure that can retain possession in tight spaces, those are the type player we should be looking at.
 

izak

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Just a piece of William Gallas urging Chelsea to sign both, He feel Bruno and Rashford will improve their team.

If Chelsea come in for them in the summer we should strike a far deal for both.
 

Doracle

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The tactics are catering to both of their style of play. He won’t play a more controlling, possession based style because it doesn’t suit our supposedly best players.

It’s a reflection on ETH as well, in trying to come up with a tactic around the players rather than imposing his own style. That’s why he’s destined to fail because the players he is catering to means we’re so exposed. It’s even more insane when you consider that neither of these two players are actually that great.
Both Bruno and Rashford are capable of playing in a possession based team. At present, it’s probably our CBs, AWB, Casemiro and Hojlund who would cause the most problems in that system currently.

In Rashford’s case, he’s one of the better passers of the ball I’ve seen for a player who is primarily focussed on pace and goal-scoring. One of the key issues he’s suffered from this season is that we have (a) failed to get players close to him and he’s been isolated regularly and (b) the passing to him when he’s made defence splitting runs has been poor. Both of those issues would be solved by having a more technical midfield/CF and switching to a more controlled game plan.

For Bruno, we’ve seen him play a more controlled game when he’s been asked to play a deeper role. I suspect he will always frustrate at times with a sloppy pass but I think he’s capable of adapting.
 

Wolfbot

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You must be laughing at yourself, because he is completely correct.

This counterattacking, chaotic style is absolutely what suits players like Bruno and Rashford. All of their "good" performances for United have come when games are transitional, and we have minimum control.

I say "good" because they honestly almost never play a full, good game. They are generally poor in every season, but go through patches with displays of individual moments in games. Bruno's goal yesterday is the perfect example. He scored a brilliant goal. Yet he played really awfully. And that's also how they usually play at their "best", more or less. Last year, Rashford scored 30 goals. But rarely, if ever, did he actually have a really good game for 90 minutes. It's all just moments here and there of individual brilliance. That's their true level.
That's pretty much every player. In competitive football at a high level, there aren't many players who are consistently good for a full 90 minutes every game.

They are playing against professional players who are doing their best to ensure they don't look good for a full game. These individual 'moments' are what separates a good player from a decent or 'average' one.

You could have a team full of steady workhorses who play it safe and they would probably do ok, but your not going to win all those matches that need someone to do something special.

The most important thing in my opinion is to get the balance of the players in the team and the tactical set up / instructions right to get the most out of the players that will do the damage and score goals.

We could replace the likes of Bruno, Rashford and even McTominay with plenty of other players who might keep the ball better, but that won't win us games on it's own. The challenge is replacing them with players who are better at keeping the ball and making good decisions, but are also capable of producing the 'moments' and goals as well. Those players aren't often easy to find, nor do they often come cheap.

Rashford and Bruno have been especially poor this season but I feel that's symptomatic of the team performing horribly as a whole which comes back to the manager. A lot of the thought in this thread seems to get rid of these players just to have more possession. We could do that but possession alone doesn't win football matches. I want to see more control as much as the next man, but not at the expense of less creativity than we already have.

They are top players when at their best and it's down to the coaches getting paid handsomely to get the best out of them until they can be replaced with someone who genuinely can provide both the consistency and the creativity.
 

van Nistelrooy

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Rashford is the biggest problem at the club.
  • Wages - Our own fault for offering the contract, but at £325k+ per week for 5-years, we're paying far too much and it doesn't help in resetting our crazy wage bill.
  • Inconsistent - It seems a rarity now, but he could produce a moment of genius, i.e. goal against City, but then he is mostly poor or anonymous throughout games.
  • Entitlement - Created by our love of 'homegrown' players. He's nearly always undroppable due to wanting a local lad to be playing, regardless of form.
  • Attitude - Sulking, moping around the place. Throwing arms around when he doesn't get his way. Missing training. If he needs help, get it.
  • Ability - He's 26.5 now. We need to stop treating him as a teenager who will improve. Time is running out at the top and in reality he just isn't that good a player
If a club came to us with a £50m offer, bearing in mind the burden of his huge contract, we should be biting their hand off.
 

Hammondo

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If we have to choose, I'd rather we sell Bruno but definitely keep Rashford. Rashford is definitely rated high by clubs and fans outside of United. If you ask Arsenal and Pool to take Rashford he would be in their starting line up for sure, maybe not for City since they have Foden.
I have literally heard the opposite every time.
 

Hammondo

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Nar, their best performances by far have come when we’ve had some control and our transitional game has been on point.

How any poster can argue that any player plays better in an absolutely chaotic system like this is nuts.

If they both thrive more in this system? Rather than the more controlled football we played for a large part of last system, explain why both have been wank this year ? Doesn’t logic say they both suit a team that can control AND transition fast?

Have a think man.
Rashford has basically only done well when we are defensive and player counter attacking.
 

ROFLUTION

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I don't think we'll sell both and I'd sell Rashford every day over Bruno. The latter works 100 times harder and shouldn't be a priority to sell. The only change I'd make is to rotate him a bit more often to keep him fresh and focused.
Same here. Id play Bruno more in a free role as attacking midfielder who tracks back / adds pressure as he runs a lot. Then also buy a holding defensive midfielder to get the best out of him. With Mainoo and a sound central midfielder we would get to see his best in attack.

I dont buy the crap that Bruno’s attitude is affecting his team. That is assuming they are all snowflakes and I just don’t think they are. At United you should be able to tell things straight - it’s what everyone did under Ferguson too. He might have moany antics, but that’s not affecting the team imo.
 
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Hammondo

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Same here. Id play Bruno more in a free role as attacking midfielder who tracks back and buy a holding defensive midfielder to get the best out of him. His best is in attack.

I dont buy the crap that Bruno’s attitude is affecting his team. That is assuming they are all snowflakes and I just don’t think they are. At United you should be able to tell things straight - it’s what everyone did under Ferguson too. He might have moany antics, but that’s not affecting the team imo.
What other teams do that though?
 

roonster09

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Nar, their best performances by far have come when we’ve had some control and our transitional game has been on point.

How any poster can argue that any player plays better in an absolutely chaotic system like this is nuts.

If they both thrive more in this system? Rather than the more controlled football we played for a large part of last system, explain why both have been wank this year ? Doesn’t logic say they both suit a team that can control AND transition fast?

Have a think man.
Rashford also did well under LVG, we played lot more controlled football.

Someone started it and people just follow it like a sheep.
 

stefan92

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What other teams do that though?
Thomas Müller plays a similar free role for Bayern for about 15 years now. The big difference is that "Radio Müller" really takes care of orchestrating how the team presses and sets up while Bruno often just runs on his own in headless chicken mode. He just hasn't the awareness how he should position himself (and others) when playing this free role.
 

ROFLUTION

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What other teams do that though?
You don’t have to play 1:1 the same setup as other top teams, do you? Chelsea, Leicester, Liverpool have all played in different ways than the “mainstream” / most popular way when they’ve won the league.
 
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Did he? Not how I remember it.
Scored 2 on his debut, then went on to score 5 and assist 2 in 11 PL games, with winning goals versus City away and Arsenal at home in there.

In the FA Cup he scored that worldie vs. West Ham.

How can you not remember it? Was extremely exciting as a United fan in a boring season to see a young lad burst onto the scene & end up with an FA Cup.
 

reddevilz007

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Just a piece of William Gallas urging Chelsea to sign both, He feel Bruno and Rashford will improve their team.

If Chelsea come in for them in the summer we should strike a far deal for both.
Yeah, Cole Palmer for Rashy and Bruno :)
 

Hammondo

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Scored 2 on his debut, then went on to score 5 and assist 2 in 11 PL games, with winning goals versus City away and Arsenal at home in there.

In the FA Cup he scored that worldie vs. West Ham.

How can you not remember it? Was extremely exciting as a United fan in a boring season to see a young lad burst onto the scene & end up with an FA Cup.
Yea that's good for a kid in terms of goals, but it doesn't mean much. You are trying to take so much from a few goals.
 

troylocker

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Thomas Müller plays a similar free role for Bayern for about 15 years now. The big difference is that "Radio Müller" really takes care of orchestrating how the team presses and sets up while Bruno often just runs on his own in headless chicken mode. He just hasn't the awareness how he should position himself (and others) when playing this free role.
Not even remotely similar roles in their teams. Muller has a free attacking role and only has defensive responsibilities in the attacking half of the pitch.

Muller's vs. Bruno's defensive stats this season in own half:

Tackles in def 1/3:
Muller 0,07/90 min
Bruno 0,83/90 min

Interceptions:
Muller 0,07/90 min
Bruno 0,77/90 min

Clearances:
Muller 0,30/90 min
Bruno 1,37/90min

Blocked shots:
Muller 0,0/90 min
Bruno 0,20/90 min

Possession:

Touches:
Own penalty area:
Muller 0,44/90 min
Bruno 2,88/90 min
Def 1/3:
Muller 3,40/90 min
Bruno 12,2/90 min
Mid 1/3:
Muller 18,5/90 min
Bruno 30/90 min
Att 1/3:
Muller 30,2/90 min
Bruno 31,7/90 min
Oppo pen area:
Muller 6/90 min
Bruno 2,8/90 min

For every involvement with or without the ball Muller has in the defensive 3rd, Bruno has 5.
One of them is a second striker/10 and and the other is a combo 10/8/6 box to box midfielder with creative and defensive responsibilities all over the pitch.
The areas Bruno has to cover is 5 times bigger than the german's.

Both Bruno and Rashford can be great players if managed correctly and playing in a system with defined roles that plays to their strenghts.
Our current manager looks clueless when it comes to both man management and implementing any system at all.