Are Bruno and Rashford a problem?

BenitoSTARR

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And this season when he has Shaw?
Shaw hasn’t been around enough for me to judge that to be fair.
Amad is as talented as Garnacho. That'll become clear once Ten Hag gives him a run of games.
And what are you basing this on? By all accounts Amad has been implied to lack the same work ethic (Mitten et al) which has held him back.

There’s a big difference between talent and “best in the league” and he’s not shown that kind of potential because that would be a Salah style player as a left footed RW.
A poor season for Salah still returns 30 goals+assists. An average season for Rashford returns just 14. But they're paid near enough the same wages.
Yup, which is why whilst im sympathetic towards Rashford my patience for someone earning that rate isn’t enough I don’t think to excuse it.

Id argue Salah would be scoring and assisting more for us right now even despite our shite season.
 

BenitoSTARR

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Less to do with how we attack and more to do with him realising how limited he is as a footballer.

Whether due to old shoulder injuries or just innate cowardice he really hates physical contact and has conditioned himself to stop trying. If he isn't left alone with the ball in lots of space, he doesn't want it. Physically he's the easiest player to tackle in the entire league because he's happy to just kick it forward and let the defender take it than put up any resistance or use his body to protect the ball.
I definitely think he’s duelling a lot less 1v1.

He can’t go shoulder to shoulder anymore.

I do think it’s injury based. I think his back and shoulder injuries have meant it’s just not going to be his game.
 

luke511

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Shaw hasn’t been around enough for me to judge that to be fair.

And what are you basing this on? By all accounts Amad has been implied to lack the same work ethic (Mitten et al) which has held him back.

There’s a big difference between talent and “best in the league” and he’s not shown that kind of potential because that would be a Salah style player as a left footed RW.

Yup, which is why whilst im sympathetic towards Rashford my patience for someone earning that rate isn’t enough I don’t think to excuse it.

Id argue Salah would be scoring and assisting more for us right now even despite our shite season.
Based on statistics. His technical ability is at a very high level. He hardly ever gives the ball away, he's very good at keeping hold of possession in the final third, and on top of that he manages to be a creative player too. It's not often you have a player that creates a lot of chances whilst hardly ever giving away possession. Chuck in his goalscoring ability as well, you have a very talented player. His work ethic is fine, after the Liverpool game Ten Hag said he's been training hard and well, but hasn't had the opportunity due to competition in the side. He took his chance vs Liverpool and hopefully now we'll see him getting more minutes on the pitch.
 

BenitoSTARR

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Based on statistics. His technical ability is at a very high level. He hardly ever gives the ball away, he's very good at keeping hold of possession in the final third, and on top of that he manages to be a creative player too. It's not often you have a player that creates a lot of chances whilst hardly ever giving away possession. Chuck in his goalscoring ability as well, you have a very talented player. His work ethic is fine, after the Liverpool game Ten Hag said he's been training hard and well, but hasn't had the opportunity due to competition in the side. He took his chance vs Liverpool and hopefully now we'll see him getting more minutes on the pitch.
Please could you provide the source of your stats so I can better understand your argument in context?
 

Musclehead

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Well beyond that we need 3 midfielders, and Bruno might be labelled as one, but I would argue he's not at all.
We need a complete rebuild. I would keep Hojlund, Martinez, Garnacho
I remain it is Bruno who is the problem. We have a midfield problem. Look at how Casemiro lifted our fortunes when he was in form and had some legs. But also Casemiro did a lot of work Bruno didn't and doesn't do.

Playing Bruno is like playing 4 defenders 2 midfielders 4 attackers with only one of them (Garnacho) seemingly willing to actually track back and give a damn.

And maybe it would be different if Bruno actually starts to produce number 10 or attackers goals. As it is, he has half of McTominays (!!!) number.

No. I say no more. Bruno is a liability and Ten Hag needs to go if he keeps persisting with what is very clear to anyone. Our midfield is the biggest problem, the biggest factor why we have so many changing displays.

We need to give him a nice cake, thank him for being so injury free and he does give anything within his zone but it just is not enough.
I do agree, Bruno is part of the problem, but unfortunately not the entire problem. It goes way deeper.
You forgot Mount here but agree with everything.

If we are to continue with ETH, and that is a big if, his current set-up requires a stronger DCM to partner with Mainoo and Mount. Let's Bruno and Rashford go and we can bring in a winger and another playmaker to be more effective with Mainoo in both controlling the game and maintaining possession. Do it like Pep, if you keep losing the ball then you can go. A good left back to cover for Shaw would also be necessary.

In term of priority for this summer:

1. World class DCM (keep Casemiro as sub and promote another youth as 2nd back-up)
2. World class play maker (sell Bruno, have Mount switching from left forward to center as back up, promote another youth as 2nd back up)
3. World class left forward (sell Rashford, bring in someone like Anthony Gordon, have Amad as sub)
3. An older striker at reasonable price to switch with Hojlund (release Martial, promote another youth as 2nd back up)
4. A decent left back to sub for Shaw (sell Malacia, promote another youth as 2nd back up)

Carrington is doing well, we should start to promote our youth more, can't just go out and buy everyone. A good mix between world class purchase and youth promotion should be the way forward.
Those are just some of the problems, as much as I don't like to say it, ETH is over his head. The setups are too much a park the bus version and try for transition. Then they don't have enough up on the transition and weak on 1 v 1. They are too compact, don't move the ball quick enough and the back end doesn't stay with the play. It is really broken. It needs to be rebuilt from the ground up, I would keep some players, but guys like Rashford and Bruno are not any of them.
 

QuiteOn Fortune

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Good post.

And I don’t passionately disagree with it because part of me wonders how much is the player vs the circumstances. Rashford hasn’t had a LB to play with all season. That is going to impact him in attack more than anyone else.
I hate to mention his name because i never really rated him but I think losing Sancho as the potential False 9 may have affected both his & our teams form more than some people realise.

Sancho as a false 9 seemed like our Plan B or even Plan C when it came to the central forward.

Sancho was looking better playing as a false 9 during pre-season and his main attributes are his through balls which would have been useful to inverted forwards like Rashford, Garnacho and even possibly Antony.

We lost Sancho & lost Martial - our ability for a central forward to play an inverted forward in behind the defence got lost with them going missing.

After that Hojlund became our only CF and the tactics changed to always having inverted forwards trying to play in a centralised poacher which simply doesn't work very well.
 

BenitoSTARR

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Thank you @luke511.

Unfortunately this is based on 624 mins of football the bulk of which is made up of Championship minutes.

So I can see why you’ve drawn those conclusions but the sample Fbref provides is too small, and at not high enough a level, to reach the conclusion he’s got the potential to be the best in the PL.

I guess we’ll have to just see if he gets given the chance to show what you hope he can be.
 

miliebrowndivorceattorney

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Bruno - aside from his goal, stolen from Hojlund, he was atrocious again. Many missed passed, many Chelsea attacks started because of him just not knowing what to do. Why do we pay him 250 k a week? He should pay us 2 million a week for wearing the shirt. I love Erik ten Hag and he is our future but Bruno, my god, a liability was never more apparent.
 

statpadder

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Can’t progress if we don’t get rid of these two and bring in technical footballers who have better decision making
 

jem

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Bruno - aside from his goal, stolen from Hojlund, he was atrocious again. Many missed passed, many Chelsea attacks started because of him just not knowing what to do. Why do we pay him 250 k a week? He should pay us 2 million a week for wearing the shirt. I love Erik ten Hag and he is our future but Bruno, my god, a liability was never more apparent.
I'm not a big Bruno fan but how was his goal stolen from Hojlund?
 

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Bruno has a very specific set of skills that should be utilised better by the coaching staff.

If you look at his key passes, assists, ball retention etc...its all about what you'd expect for a creative midfield player - the problem is we have him playing predominantly in areas that really don't suit that kind of high risk/high reward football. I'm not having that he is "THE" problem though, I think he'd be great in a functioning setup.

Rashford is beyond useless, he's actively detrimental to the team
 

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Bruno screws up so many chances. For a supposed talisman he is really average.
 

Gloccamora

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Bruno is one of the worst player to play for united. This is the most obvious thing to see for anyone who watched united play.
 

Kelly15

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Bruno is a problem for sure. He is not quick enough. You can see in these type of games it is passing him by. And when he does try to be quick he gives the ball away.
 

Jund

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I clearly remember when Berbatov was deemed as lazy, but now somehow Rashford is misunderstood...
 

Amar__

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Bruno screws up so many chances. For a supposed talisman he is really average.
He, alongside our manager tactics, is one of the main reasons we can't control single game and act like bunch of idiots during games.
 

nmm85

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Bruno screws up so many chances. For a supposed talisman he is really average.
We simply don't have a team that can afford to have such players. I like Bruno, I really do but unless we find a way to stop shots against us so easily we just can't afford to give away so much possession. He doesn't offer enough in other departments.

Rashford is just not good enough in any way currently and again, doesn't offer anything. Poor dribbling, poor in possession, awful out of possession, poor at heading and barely contributes.

I would rather have them replaced with cheap and consistent 6/10 players. I would add Casemiro to this list as well.
 

lost7

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Bruno has some qualities that make him a top player in some areas, but he is absolutely inept at other basic areas of the game which make him a liability.

One thing, though, is that he is always available and he always gives a 100%. For that alone, I hope he gets a good send off this season. Let's win the FA cup, let him raise a trophy as the captain and then fecking ship him off to Saudi or whoever will take him.

As for Rashford, just rip his contract in half.
 

soapythecat

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I work in a crewroom with guys who support loads of different teams. And I can honestly say not one of them is having Bruno at all. They say the same thing as many think on here in that his stats way inflate his actual ability. He’s the reason people should watch a player rather than look at stats.
That said, let’s hope some Saudi side look at his stats and aren’t watching United this season.
 

lost7

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They haven't.
Bruno in the calendar year 2020 was world class - since then he's been incredibly inconsistent (and often consistently bad), but in the first year he was a genuine goal scoring machine from midfield while at the same time creating chances left and right.
 

stepic

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We will never control a game of football properly with Bruno and Rashford as our two main ‘stars’. They both need to go - it’s clear as day. Let’s see if all these new boardroom signings have any sense or whether they’ll need a whole new year to figure it out.
 

ifightdragons

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We will never control a game of football properly with Bruno and Rashford as our two main ‘stars’. They both need to go - it’s clear as day. Let’s see if all these new boardroom signings have any sense or whether they’ll need a whole new year to figure it out.
Spot on.

They'll need a year or maybe even two to figure it out. Unfortunately... There are so few people in football who understand the principles of control.

Our only hope is Berrada does.
 

Widow

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Bruno has been a great player for United but he's been getting progressively worse for the last couple of seasons. He's never been great at controlling games but now his goal involvements are declining, it's getting more obvious.

Since SAF retired, we've lost the ruthlessness needed to move a player on at the right time. Fergie had little issue getting rid of a player when it was best for the squad, Hughes, Ince, Beckham to name a few but it's like we're holding onto Bruno because his early numbers hold up.

In my opinion, Bruno has been good for us and there's nothing wrong in saying thanks for the memories but we're moving on if a different direction and move him on probably for a great fee.
 

Escobar

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How the fans standards have dropped over the years. There is no way they would be starters at a top club with ambitions in current form
 

FootballAI

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I don't think neither Bruno and Rashford were the main problem, although it would still be necessary to have an addition to swap with Rashford (or try to play Amad more perhaps). The 02 positions that we need to fix urgently are a worldclass DM to rotate with Casemiro who have mix of good and bad games, and a better ball controlling CB and left back (if Martinez and Shaw continue not playing enough games next season).

Also watching 3 recent games, It is clear that Hojlund did not hold the ball and aerial fight well enough, where as Maguire kept making these ridiculous long balls to him. Don't get me wrong, Hojlund was good but he look abit off since injury. Maguire is a good CB and very useful with set play, but he needs to realise his passing limitation and pass the ball to other for build up rather than trying these long balls that lose us possession.

If we can buy Bellingham to replace Bruno and Mbappe to replace Rashford then I think we should, but if we are to spend cash to solve the immediate issue then I prefer we spend on a worldclass DM and CB/Left-back first.
 

gajender

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I don't think neither Bruno and Rashford were the main problem, although it would still be necessary to have an addition to swap with Rashford (or try to play Amad more perhaps). The 02 positions that we need to fix urgently are a worldclass DM to rotate with Casemiro who have mix of good and bad games, and a better ball controlling CB and left back (if Martinez and Shaw continue not playing enough games next season).

Also watching 3 recent games, It is clear that Hojlund did not hold the ball and aerial fight well enough, where as Maguire kept making these ridiculous long balls to him. Don't get me wrong, Hojlund was good but he look abit off since injury. Maguire is a good CB and very useful with set play, but he needs to realise his passing limitation and pass the ball to other for build up rather than trying these long balls that lose us possession.

If we can buy Bellingham to replace Bruno and Mbappe to replace Rashford then I think we should, but if we are to spend cash to solve the immediate issue then I prefer we spend on a worldclass DM and CB/Left-back first.
We don't need to splash cash to replace them immediately as Mount is perfectly capable to replace Bruno as well play on the flanks along with Garnacho but what definitely needs to happen is to get some cash while we can for Bruno and Rashford because another season like this for both of them then we are definitely stuck with them till their contracts run out .
 

AndersB

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If we can buy Bellingham to replace Bruno and Mbappe to replace Rashford then I think we should, but if we are to spend cash to solve the immediate issue then I prefer we spend on a worldclass DM and CB/Left-back first.
Oh my. I hate to wake you up from your blissful dream state, but it's time to go to work
 

Borys

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The problem with players like Bruno and Rashford is their game relies completely on moments of brilliance. If they are not on top of their game, their bottom level is very low and they don't even get the basics right.

Player like Mount or Mainoo will not deliver you moments of brilliance every game (Mainoo seems capable of doing it at the moment, but I still think we're seeing a bit of a golden patch of form like we did recently with Hojlund). But that's not the problem, because their basic level is so high, in the end you can easily get more of them.

However, to utilize players like Mainoo, Mount, Dalot etc effectively, you need to have a tactical setup that will make this all work. On the other hand, with players like Bruno and Rashford, there is no setup needed, the more chaos the better, and that's the reason ETH and Ole (to some extent) were able to make it work despite being tactically inept.
 
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We will never control a game of football properly with Bruno and Rashford as our two main ‘stars’.
In fairness we’ll never control a game with these tactics, no matter the personnel.

The boss had a chance to swap out both yesterday with tonnes of options on the bench for once (Mount, Antony & Eriksen), but kept them on for most of the game & was happy with the performance showing our great potential.

I’m not gonna argue anyone should be sold based on these tactics, it’s just absolute chaos.
 

mikeyt

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When Rashford can be arsed, he's still a potential starter for a top club but barring last season, he hasn't been arsed for 3 or 4 years now. Fernandes is a major problem though, his inability to lead, to create chances and importantly retain possession in the final 3rd has been awful for a long time now.

When I look at what we need to bring in and our FFP restrictions, these two being moved on is a no brainer. Both are on mega money they don't deserve, both could generate decent fees still and neither are really good enough if we have aspirations to be competing at the top level each season.