Israel - Iran and regional players | Please post respectfully

Revan said:

China, Russia, Iran and North Korea that are in a real alliance, both politically/economically but even more importantly military (see Iran, China and N. Korea sending weapons to Russia). Which is quite dangerous to the West, considering their non-democratic governments and the hate for the west.

BRICS is not a real alliance to be fair. India and China have many problems with each other, South Africa is not powerful either military of economically, and Brazil is more connected to the West rather than the remaining RICS.

Click to expand...

It's ridiculous to pretend that China is anti-Israel when China and Israel trade more with each other than any other "plus Israel" state formation.

It's completely incoherent. Russia and Israel, despite Israeli movements during the Russian invasion of Ukraine, have a special relationship which is why they were touted as mediators before it all went a certain way.

Iran. OK. I think that's sane. North Korea is absolutely insane. Who the feck thinks North Korea are involved? Get them out of the room. Iran/Hezbollah/other groups. Russia as massive secondary in Syria primarily (but regional). China is economic, has huge ties with Israel. North Korea is irrelevant.

Made up enemy acronyms and half the list is gibberish, or would require massive amounts of reading and interpretation which is work I do not see in this thread.

Surely Israeli invented acronym to go with an already somewhat conscious awareness after decades of drum beating in the US regarding foreign states. It's like that North Korea, Iran, Iraq, (name an Arab state) list twenty years ago. The axis of evil, they called it.

AfonsoAlves said:

China selling and profiteering from Russia does not mean they are in an alliance.

They are in an "enemy of my enemy" situation but Sinophobia and Russophobia runs deep in both those countries.

Click to expand...

Xi and Putin are best friends, have been met like 20 times in 2 years. China is also (probably) sending weapons to Russia, and helping Russia get away from sanctions (as a third party seller).

China essentially have put all the blame for the War in the West and Ukraine and have refused to ever condemn Russia. In many ways, how the West reacts to Ukraine war is gonna decide the fate of the Taiwan. If the West would have been more aggressive in shipping weapons to Ukraine, I think China would have been deterred more and postpone their plans for invasion of Taiwan.

neverdie said:

It's ridiculous to pretend that China is anti-Israel when China and Israel trade more with each other than any other "plus Israel" state formation.

It's completely incoherent. Russia and Israel, despite Israeli movements during the Russian invasion of Ukraine, have a special relationship which is why they were touted as mediators before it all went a certain way.

Iran. OK. I think that's sane. North Korea is absolutely insane. Who the feck thinks North Korea are involved? Get them out of the room. Iran/Hezbollah/other groups. Russia as massive secondary in Syria primarily (but regional). China is economic, has huge ties with Israel. North Korea is irrelevant.

Made up enemy acronyms and half the list is gibberish, or would require massive amounts of reading and interpretation which is work I do not see in this thread.

Click to expand...

I am afraid it does not work that way. Australia trades much more with China than any Western country, but they are firmly in the West category, not in the China alliance.

I do not think that China cares too much about Israel, but Iran is a very important ally of Russia, and Russia is at this moment the main ally of China. Just look at Security Council 2 days ago what China had to say. Completely blaming Israel for Iran sending 400 projectiles to Israel.

North Korea is one of the countries who has most artillery shells in the world, and they have been giving them in mass to Russia. Russia might have run out of ammo if it wasn't for North Korea giving them thousands of artillery and Iran giving to them thousands (tens of thousands) of drones that are terrorizing Ukraine.

glazed said:

If Kaos wants to declare an allegiance that's his business. My allegiance is to the survival of western democracy, however imperfect. We are entering a century of conflict and mass migration and people will have to pick sides. If not for Iran and Russia, the middle east would look very different right now, so to dismiss the CRINKs as irrelevant cannot be right. Without them there would have been no October 7. And without America there would be no Israel.

Click to expand...

Why are you so sure I've declared any sort of allegiance? I'm not some partisan drone that's picked a default side based on where certain factions orient themselves.

If you absolutely must know, I despise the Iranian regime to the extent it's become personal, and I've witnessed firsthand the debilitating effect they've had on my own family's livelihood. I have no love for Putin, and I have actively protested against Uyghur treatment in China. The fact I'm conveying my strong views on the state of Israel (in a thread referencing Israel incidentally) doesn't detract from my other world views. Nor do I feel the need to caveat any point about Israel with those aforementioned viewpoints too.

The fact you're labelling me a CRINK loyalist is frankly offensive or ignorant at best considering my own personal and family history with some of the factions you're bundling me in with. Like I've already reiterated numerous times in this thread - beint a strong critic and opponent of the US and Israel doesn't bundle me in with their adversaries. Condemnation of all those sides aren't mutually exclusive viewpoints to hold.

Revan said:

I am afraid it does not work that way. Australia trades much more with China than any Western country, but they are firmly in the West category, not in the China alliance.

I do not think that China cares too much about Israel, but Iran is a very important ally of Russia, and Russia is at this moment the main ally of China. Just look at Security Council 2 days ago what China had to say. Completely blaming Israel for Iran sending 400 projectiles to Israel.

North Korea is one of the countries who has most artillery shells in the world, and they have been giving them in mass to Russia. Russia might have run out of ammo if it wasn't for North Korea giving them thousands of artillery and Iran giving to them thousands (tens of thousands) of drones that are terrorizing Ukraine.

Click to expand...

The answer, to parse your response, is "Russia".

That's complete nonsense. The amount of "local" history you're outsourcing to your favorite enemy is something I'm sure @2cents
could balance in some form of geopolitical post but all the people here, for once, are far too colloquial regarding "players", "game".

Genocide. It is simple. Let the basic facts do the distinction making for you. Russia and China are not behind it. It's idiocy, after a point, to pretend that they are. 2% of all children, in Gaza, either dead or injured. That has nothing to do with Russia or China and it has been Israeli policy, if you want trends regarding the asymmetry of this conflict, for years. This is just the most flat-out genocidal it has been.

neverdie said:

It's ridiculous to pretend that China is anti-Israel when China and Israel trade more with each other than any other "plus Israel" state formation.

North Korea is absolutely insane

Click to expand...

China trades with everyone. They are the economic powerhouse part of the CRINKs. Trading with a country can be a very hostile act if done the way China does it. Just ask Tesla. Ask the European solar panel manufacturers. Hell, ask anyone who runs a manufacturing business.

North Korea provides a massive number of shells to Russia for Ukraine.

Kaos said:

Why are you so sure I've declared any sort of allegiance?

Click to expand...

I haven't stated that, I just said it's for you to state your allegiances. I haven't bundled you with anybody - you would have done that to yourself if you hate Iran yet supported Hamas. Not that I'm saying you have - I have no clue or concern about what you think. What I am saying is that war is almost upon us and you, like everyone else, need to pick a side or get caught in the crossfire of an intellectually empty no-man's land. CRINKs or the West?

neverdie said:

The answer, to parse your response, is "Russia".

That's complete nonsense. The amount of "local" history you're outsourcing to your favorite enemy is something I'm sure @2cents
could balance in some form of geopolitical post but all the people here, for once, are far too colloquial regarding "players", "game".

Genocide. It is simple. Let the basic facts do the distinction making for you. Russia and China are not behind it. It's idiocy, after a point, to pretend that they are. 2% of all children, in Gaza, either dead or injured. That has nothing to do with Russia or China and it has been Israeli policy, if you want trends regarding the asymmetry of this conflict, for years. This is just the most flat-out genocidal it has been.

Click to expand...

No, it is not. But there is obviously an alliance between those 4 countries, with Russia and China as the senior partners. An alliance both politically (helping each other in political sense, including defending each other in the security council and other UN mechanisms) and military (giving weapons to each other).

With regard to your second point, I think that Israel has done atrocities in the Gaza, but I wouldn't call it genocide. Saying that, it probably is not far of that. And no, I do not think that CRINKs are behind the war in Palestine, that would be nonsense. However, Russia now is very connected military wise with Iran, and there is undoubtedly a military alliance between these countries.

I think a lot of people see the conflicts in Ukraine, Iran-Israel, the other proxy wars of Iran (Syria and Yemen), and the eventual war on Taiwan not completely isolated from each other considering that in each of those wars, you have the same countries in one side (Russia, China, Iran, North Korea) and the others in the other side (US-led NATO coalition with the help of Japan, S.Korea and Australia). While the reality is obviously far more nuanced and complex, but still there is a lot to be said about this alliances. China wants to become the new hegemon in the world, Russia is not content with being a second-tier country and wants as much as possible of the Soviet Union back, and Iran wants to become the Middle East leader. To do so, they need to defeat the US and its allies. The US obviously is not going to accept that, and this inevitable clash in the making between US allies and China allies will happen. As always, it starts with proxy wars.

Buster15 said:

As usual you are looking at this with a very one sided view.
Iran did nothing to cause this?

Click to expand...

It is impossible to blame one side.

The British are at fault along with the UN for the way Israel was set up in the first place.
Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Jordan and Lebanon are at fault for declaring war on Israel the second it was founded.
Israel were at fault for the Nakba and grabbing land in the most violent and fear inducing way possible
The US are at fault along with UK for destroying Iraq and wrecking the Iran/Iraq power balance in the Middle East
Israel are at fault for the way they have subjugated the Palestinian population for almost a century
The UK and US were at fault in backing the Shah and orchestrating a coup in Iran
The Palestinians were at fault in backing Arafat for too long and then backing Hamas while allowing Israel to play Hamas and Fatah off against each other.

This list could go on and on, but just a random selection of mistakes hopefully shows, that the strategy of multiple nations in the Middle East has failed and all countries involved have only contributed to making it worse. People picking a side and arguing vociferously for that side will never achieve anything either in this thread or on a geopolitical stage. All sides have fecked up in this and until people are honest about that, speak openly about it and realise that neither side can win outright, nothing will change and innocent people will continue to lose their lives.

Buster15 said:

Let me start again.
I can tell by your posts on the other thread that you are a highly committed individual and someone with principles.
And despite our differences, I respect you for that. Genuinely I do.

This whole Arab Israel Palestine situation is an awful mess. And a mess in which innocent people are paying the price.
But it is also incredibly complex. Historically, politically entrenched in a spiral of chaos.

The leaders don't give a sh1t about morals or the people they are supposed to be leading. That is clear.
Just their own vested interests.

I am sure we both want it to stop. But it won't for the above reasons.

Click to expand...

I don't think it's a complex issue at all.

There's no indigenous population that will just lie down and let their land, livelihood, civil rights, and lives be taken without resistance.

If you're a Palestinian in Gaza, you're bottom of the rung. A life with little hope and confined to what is essentially an open air prison where every facet of your life is controlled by your oppressor and occupier.
If you're a Palestinian in the West Bank, whilst you have a modicum of more rights than Gazans, you're lands, livelihoods and houses are atomised by brutal murderous settlers hell bent on making your life so intolerable that they force you to leave (if they don't kill you).
If you're an Israeli Arab (a weird term in itself), you're essentially a 3rd class citizen in your own country, where you're dehumanised in public spaces and on the fringes of society.

I don't see anything complex about that situation that Israel (with the backing of the US / the West) have created.

The Boy said:

It is impossible to blame one side.

The British are at fault along with the UN for the way Israel was set up in the first place.
Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Jordan and Lebanon are at fault for declaring war on Israel the second it was founded.
Israel were at fault for the Nakba and grabbing land in the most violent and fear inducing way possible
The US are at fault along with UK for destroying Iraq and wrecking the Iran/Iraq power balance in the Middle East
Israel are at fault for the way they have subjugated the Palestinian population for almost a century
The UK and US were at fault in backing the Shah and orchestrating a coup in Iran
The Palestinians were at fault in backing Arafat for too long and then backing Hamas while allowing Israel to play Hamas and Fatah off against each other.

This list could go on and on, but just a random selection of mistakes hopefully shows, that the strategy of multiple nations in the Middle East has failed and all countries involved have only contributed to making it worse. People picking a side and arguing vociferously for that side will never achieve anything either in this thread or on a geopolitical stage. All sides have fecked up in this and until people are honest about that, speak openly about it and realise that neither side can win outright, nothing will change and innocent people will continue to lose their lives.

Click to expand...

Hmmm, you might have forgotten the big elephant in the room.

I give you two hints: It starts with I, but it is not Israel.

Revan said:

Hmmm, you might have forgotten the big elephant in the room.

I give you two hints: It starts with I, but it is not Israel.

Click to expand...

You're missing the point, as I said it was a random selection, there are certainly many many more, but if I were to document all the mistakes, idiocies, failed strategies etc and war crimes every country has committed in the Middle East in the last century the post would become a series of books.

The Boy said:

You're missing the point, as I said it was a random selection, there are certainly many many more, but if I were to document all the mistakes, idiocies, failed strategies etc and war crimes every country has committed in the Middle East in the last century the post would become a series of books.

Click to expand...

Sure. But the current biggest destabilizer of the Middle East is Iran, the country that you forgot to mention. Which is why we are seeing a very non-conventional alliance between Israel and the Arabic Kingdoms.

Let's not forget that the war in Palestine is relatively small compared to the other wars that happened in the Middle East during the last 10 years. Both Syrian civil war and the Yemeni civil war had over half million people killed each, over 10 times the Gaza war (even if you include the victims for the last 10-20 years there), and Israel had nothing to do with them. Iran on the other hand was a big actor in both. And they are of course involved in the Iraq. And Lebanon.

Buster15 said:

It is baffling that you are telling me because the Jews were.....
You have made that up my friend because I neither said it or infured it.

Click to expand...

You saying: "
And let's remember the events of WW2 that resulted in a large number of Jewish people being displaced across Europe with no homeland.
What was supposed to happen to them."

Is saying jews were fecked so what was suppose to happen is giving them a homeland.

And with that you dont care what happen with the original homelanders. Jews need a homeland and dont care of the consequences

Revan said:

For similar reasons, I am in the side of the US in any conflict they enter, I actually love the US, despite that I think what they did in Iraq was absolutely criminal.

Click to expand...

Did you support the Iraq conflict at the time even though you knew it was criminal?

RedTiger said:

Did you support the Iraq conflict at the time even though you knew it was criminal?

Click to expand...

Absolutely no. Even as a kid/young teen I thought what the US was doing was pretty much criminal. Saying that, for the most part, I support the US (and its allies).

Similarly, I think what Israel is doing in Gaza is criminal, but I support Israel in their fight against Iran.

Tarrou said:

I don't really care who started it, I mean the whole thing has been going on for decades

my concern is what if anything will Israel do from here? And how far can this realistically escalate?

Israel have come out and said they will retaliate which is frankly terrifying to me at this point

could it possibly be as tame as sanctions or something like that?

Click to expand...

And the rest. They've been at it for centuries and will be at it for many more. As long as there is religion in this part of the world there will be war.

I expect Israel's retaliation will be minor. Maybe a few airstrikes on nearby Iranian regional assets but i really, really doubt they'll hit inside Iran. This whole series of events has been planned for each side to save face and we look to be on the home stretch.

I think Israel's long term goal is to bomb Iran nuclear facilities though.

Revan said:

Hmmm, you might have forgotten the big elephant in the room.

I give you two hints: It starts with I, but it is not Israel.

Click to expand...

fecking Irish

Anecdotally I can share that when I attended an Israeli university well over a decade ago, there were loads of Mandarin language courses available that were always packed out with Israeli students; and dozens and dozens of Chinese exchange students who had adopted names like Chaim, Yitzhak, and Avishai.

glazed said:

That is a mantra for CRINK foot soldiers to parrot on social media, ignoring the inconvenient fact that the removal, killing or enslavement of Jews from Israel is Hamas' stated policy. If Israel's policy is genocide then it isn't very good at it. It's more a clumsy and so far failed attempt at ethnic cleansing. The day may well come when Israel attempts a genocide against the Palestinians and when it does you will regret having rendered the term meaningless.

Click to expand...

What an absolutely clueless bunch of nonsense. I guess when you're so fanatically pro-israel you gotta discredit those pointing out the obvious, all those experts in international law and academics and people from ngo's on the ground are just stooges for russia and iran. I would bet you don't even believe but writing this stuff makes you feel a little bit less guilty for what your side is doing.

And I love the mention to stated policy, like that dumb journo asking the un lady for a document showing israel's policy is to commit genocide.

Israel is committing genocide before your eyes but I guess we can ignore it because it's not stated policy.

The Corinthian said:

I don't see anything complex about that situation that Israel (with the backing of the US / the West) have created.

Click to expand...

If you can't see any complexity in this then you don't see anything except what you want to see.

maniak said:

What an absolutely clueless bunch of nonsense. I guess when you're so fanatically pro-israel you gotta discredit those pointing out the obvious, all those experts in international law and academics and people from ngo's on the ground are just stooges for russia and iran.

Click to expand...

I'm pro-reality. When the international court says Israel are committing genocide then get back to me and we can discuss whether it's true. But they haven't (yet) so you're just making stuff up. I doubt they will either but let's see. I have an open mind on this. You clearly do not.

neverdie said:

Is it allowable to bomb consulates? That's the level international law, via the NYT, is pitching this thing at. No. That's the common sense answer. I'll have some IL after people agree on the premise that we shouldn't be fetishizing natural language terms to obscure things which are entirely opposite of what is basic common sense (that children can tell you is wrong and only the naive would call naive in response).

Click to expand...

Legal conventions aside, Israel bombed it because it was, to them, a legitimate military target. They decided the political risk was worth it. Whether that turns out to be true or not, we will see.

The Corinthian said:

I don't think it's a complex issue at all.

There's no indigenous population that will just lie down and let their land, livelihood, civil rights, and lives be taken without resistance.

If you're a Palestinian in Gaza, you're bottom of the rung. A life with little hope and confined to what is essentially an open air prison where every facet of your life is controlled by your oppressor and occupier.
If you're a Palestinian in the West Bank, whilst you have a modicum of more rights than Gazans, you're lands, livelihoods and houses are atomised by brutal murderous settlers hell bent on making your life so intolerable that they force you to leave (if they don't kill you).
If you're an Israeli Arab (a weird term in itself), you're essentially a 3rd class citizen in your own country, where you're dehumanised in public spaces and on the fringes of society.

I don't see anything complex about that situation that Israel (with the backing of the US / the West) have created.

Click to expand...

This is a serious oversimplication that ignores lots of historical contexts and such:

Up until post WW2, the immigration of Jews to that region was mostly legal, facilitated by purchases of housing through proper channels from local citizens. It's no different than someone from South Sudan coming to the UK to escape war and then buying a house from a white british guy living in Runcorn.

What do you think is the ideal solution? Israel ceases to exist? Palestine replaces it? There is no scenario in the world where that happens anymore, and if it did it would be just the ball on the other foot with regards to ethnic cleansing and genocide as you now have generations of Israeli's who have never lived elsewhere and this is the home that they have known all their lives.

AfonsoAlves said:

This is a serious oversimplication that ignores lots of historical contexts and such:

Up until post WW2, the immigration of Jews to that region was mostly legal, facilitated by purchases of housing through proper channels from local citizens. It's no different than someone from South Sudan coming to the UK to escape war and then buying a house from a white british guy living in Runcorn.

What do you think is the ideal solution? Israel ceases to exist? Palestine replaces it? There is no scenario in the world where that happens anymore, and if it did it would be just the ball on the other foot with regards to ethnic cleansing and genocide as you now have generations of Israeli's who have never lived elsewhere and this is the home that they have known all their lives.

Click to expand...

The "ideal" solution are the 1967 borders, no? Israel pulling out of West Bank and allowing for Palestinians to actually have a state and control their own airspace, military, imports and so on. A normal functioning country.

VorZakone said:

The "ideal" solution are the 1967 borders, no? Israel pulling out of West Bank and allowing for Palestinians to actually have a state and control their own airspace, military, imports and so on. A normal functioning country.

Click to expand...

That's ideal....an ideal set by foreign powers who see that as the best way to move forward. The reality is neither side want that. Also, cannot imagine Israel giving up Golan Heights to Syria.

It's interesting, barely anybody is still alive from when the UN mandate occured, yet both sides fervently want an all or nothing.

That's the main crux with this - the people of Gaza/West Bank want all or nothing - The political class of Israel and its main power base want the pure extreme version of Zionism.

AfonsoAlves said:

Up until post WW2, the immigration of Jews to that region was mostly legal, facilitated by purchases of housing through proper channels from local citizens. It's no different than someone from South Sudan coming to the UK to escape war and then buying a house from a white british guy living in Runcorn.

Click to expand...

It’s fair to compare the plight of individual Jews who arrived in Palestine before 1948 to modern-day migrants from war-torn or authoritarian developing nations, sure. Most of them made the trip for material reasons unrelated to the ideological pull of Zionism. And the fact they ended up embracing Zionism after their arrival is indeed a complex issue. But the Zionist movement itself specifically aimed to turn Palestinians into a minority in order to eventually establish a Jewish state. They made no secret of this mission, and pursued it under the cover of an imperial power. There is no equivalent among today’s migrants except in the imagination of the far-right.

Revan said:

Sure. But the current biggest destabilizer of the Middle East is Iran, the country that you forgot to mention. Which is why we are seeing a very non-conventional alliance between Israel and the Arabic Kingdoms.

Let's not forget that the war in Palestine is relatively small compared to the other wars that happened in the Middle East during the last 10 years. Both Syrian civil war and the Yemeni civil war had over half million people killed each, over 10 times the Gaza war (even if you include the victims for the last 10-20 years there), and Israel had nothing to do with them. Iran on the other hand was a big actor in both.

Click to expand...

In regards to Syria, I think it would be fair to hold the US/Qatar/Turkey just as culpable as the Iranians and Russians for the carnage caused. And as for Yemen, it was the Saudis (with the blessing of the US) who decided to launch a brutal campaign against their civilians, killing scores and essentially engineering a famine. And we haven't even discussed the US' disastrous illegal invasion of Iraq, leading to immeasurable amounts of human suffering which Iraq still hasn't recovered from today.

The Iranian regime are definitely a malevolent presence in the various countries they have their talons on, but to call them by and large the most destabilising factor is contentious at best.

AfonsoAlves said:

This is a serious oversimplication that ignores lots of historical contexts and such:

Up until post WW2, the immigration of Jews to that region was mostly legal, facilitated by purchases of housing through proper channels from local citizens. It's no different than someone from South Sudan coming to the UK to escape war and then buying a house from a white british guy living in Runcorn.

Click to expand...

Ha ha, that’s weirdly specific! It’s absolutely true though, and a lot of Jews came from other countries in the Middle East where they were subject to some pretty horrifying treatment.

AfonsoAlves said:

This is a serious oversimplication that ignores lots of historical contexts and such:

Up until post WW2, the immigration of Jews to that region was mostly legal, facilitated by purchases of housing through proper channels from local citizens. It's no different than someone from South Sudan coming to the UK to escape war and then buying a house from a white british guy living in Runcorn.

What do you think is the ideal solution? Israel ceases to exist? Palestine replaces it? There is no scenario in the world where that happens anymore, and if it did it would be just the ball on the other foot with regards to ethnic cleansing and genocide as you now have generations of Israeli's who have never lived elsewhere and this is the home that they have known all their lives.

Click to expand...

2cents said:

It’s fair to compare the plight of individual Jews who arrived in Palestine before 1948 to modern-day migrants from war-torn or authoritarian developing nations, sure. Most of them made the trip for material reasons unrelated to the ideological pull of Zionism. And the fact they ended up embracing Zionism after their arrival is indeed a complex issue. But the Zionist movement itself specifically aimed to turn Palestinians into a minority in order to eventually establish a Jewish state. They made no secret of this mission. There is no equivalent among today’s migrants except in the imagination of the far-right.

Click to expand...

@AfonsoAlves - as above,

I'd also add that European Jews' link to the land is tenuous at best. If anything, they should have carved out an Israel located in the middle of Germany given their Germanic ancestry, language, culture and genetics if they wanted to touch base with their roots.

11101 said:

And the rest. They've been at it for centuries and will be at it for many more. As long as there is religion in this part of the world there will be war.

I expect Israel's retaliation will be minor. Maybe a few airstrikes on nearby Iranian regional assets but i really, really doubt they'll hit inside Iran. This whole series of events has been planned for each side to save face and we look to be on the home stretch.

I think Israel's long term goal is to bomb Iran nuclear facilities though.

Click to expand...

Good to hear. I know a minor retaliation is most likely but I’m l really starting to worry

glazed said:

If you can't see any complexity in this then you don't see anything except what you want to see.



I'm pro-reality. When the international court says Israel are committing genocide then get back to me and we can discuss whether it's true. But they haven't (yet) so you're just making stuff up. I doubt they will either but let's see. I have an open mind on this. You clearly do not.

Click to expand...

That is not true though.

2cents said:

It’s fair to compare the plight of individual Jews who arrived in Palestine before 1948 to modern-day migrants from war-torn or authoritarian developing nations, sure. Most of them made the trip for material reasons unrelated to the ideological pull of Zionism. And the fact they ended up embracing Zionism after their arrival is indeed a complex issue. But the Zionist movement itself specifically aimed to turn Palestinians into a minority in order to eventually establish a Jewish state. They made no secret of this mission, and pursued it under the cover of an imperial power. There is no equivalent among today’s migrants except in the imagination of the far-right.

Click to expand...

That's not fair either, because a huge chunk of the post 48 migrants were a result of various Arab countries ethnically cleansing Jews outright or making policy so that it became utterly untenable for Jews to reside there. For example, in 1962 Algeria stripped all Jews of Citizenship. In 61 in Libya Jews were stripped of their rights to vote, own business, trade or to own property. Iraq participated in asset stripping, you had massacres in Morocco and Egypt engaged in mass asset seizures.

AfonsoAlves said:

That's not fair either, because a huge chunk of the post 48 migrants were a result of various Arab countries ethnically cleansing Jews outright or making policy so that it became utterly untenable for Jews to reside there. For example, in 1962 Algeria stripped all Jews of Citizenship. In 61 in Libya Jews were stripped of their rights to vote, own business, trade or to own property. Iraq participated in asset stripping, you had massacres in Morocco and Egypt engaged in mass asset seizures.

Click to expand...

I thought we were discussing pre-1948 migration. I agree the post-48 migration of Mizrachi Jews is another story entirely, but it largely happened in the context of an already-established Israel.

Kaos said:

In regards to Syria, I think it would be fair to hold the US/Qatar/Turkey just as culpable as the Iranians and Russians for the carnage caused. And as for Yemen, it was the Saudis (with the blessing of the US) who decided to launch a brutal campaign against their civilians, killing scores and essentially engineering a famine. And we haven't even discussed the US' disastrous illegal invasion of Iraq, leading to immeasurable amounts of human suffering which Iraq still hasn't recovered from today.

The Iranian regime are definitely a malevolent presence in the various countries they have their talons on, but to call them by and large the most destabilising factor is contentious at best.

Click to expand...

They are one of the main actors in Syria and Yemen (the two most bloody wars there), a massive actor in Lebanon and Iraq, and an actor in Gaza. They are involved pretty much everywhere.

I think they win the most destabilizing title in the Middle East. US and Russia being second and third.

The Corinthian said:

@AfonsoAlves - as above,

I'd also add that European Jews' link to the land is tenuous at best. If anything, they should have carved out an Israel located in the middle of Germany given their Germanic ancestry, language, culture and genetics if they wanted to touch base with their roots.

Click to expand...

This is a weird point, by 1945 Germany had practically been depleted of Jews for reasons everyone already knows, and you want to move the huge chunk of the population away from the middle east to Germany, where many of them had been through PTSD and mass trauma, also encouraging Jews from Eastern Europe who had just been through a war of extermination with the same people. Come on mate, you and I both know that is an absurd proposition.

NicolaSacco said:

Ha ha, that’s weirdly specific! It’s absolutely true though, and a lot of Jews came from other countries in the Middle East where they were subject to some pretty horrifying treatment.

Click to expand...

AfonsoAlves said:

That's not fair either, because a huge chunk of the post 48 migrants were a result of various Arab countries ethnically cleansing Jews outright or making policy so that it became utterly untenable for Jews to reside there. For example, in 1962 Algeria stripped all Jews of Citizenship. In 61 in Libya Jews were stripped of their rights to vote, own business, trade or to own property. Iraq participated in asset stripping, you had massacres in Morocco and Egypt engaged in mass asset seizures.

Click to expand...

2cents said:

I thought we were discussing pre-1948 migration. I agree the post-48 migration of Mizrachi Jews is another story entirely, but it largely happened in the context of an already-established Israel.

Click to expand...

According to Avi Shlaim (Iraqi Jew historian) - there was Zionist meddling in Middle Eastern countries to hasten the migration of Sephardic Jews to Israel. His claim is on the Baghdad bombings specifically -

Avi Shlaim says he has 'proof of Zionist involvement' in 1950s attack on Iraqi Jews | Middle East Eye

but given Israel's method of behaviour since their inception, I wouldn't be surprised the level of meddling in other instances.

2cents said:

I thought we were discussing pre-1948 migration. I agree the post-48 migration of Mizrachi Jews is another story entirely, but it largely happened in the context of an already-established Israel.

Click to expand...

Oh sorry I thought you agreed with my point about pre-48 migration but disagreed with the intent after 48.

Well, the thing is, I thought the same as you regarding ideological movers, but then someone in the Israel gaza thread corrected me and pointed out most of them were very poor people who escaped from Europe which had huge levels of anti-semitism and were actually paid to do so by charities.

The Corinthian said:

According to Avi Shlaim (Iraqi Jew historian) - there was Zionist meddling in Middle Eastern countries to hasten the migration of Sephardic Jews to Israel. His claim is on the Baghdad bombings specifically -

Avi Shlaim says he has 'proof of Zionist involvement' in 1950s attack on Iraqi Jews | Middle East Eye

but given Israel's method of behaviour since their inception, I wouldn't be surprised the level of meddling in other instances.

Click to expand...

Okay, but how is that a justification in any way for those countries making policies of ethnic cleansing?

AfonsoAlves said:

This is a weird point, by 1945 Germany had practically been depleted of Jews for reasons everyone already knows, and you want to move the huge chunk of the population away from the middle east to Germany, where many of them had been through PTSD and mass trauma, also encouraging Jews from Eastern Europe who had just been through a war of extermination with the same people. Come on mate, you and I both know that is an absurd proposition.

Click to expand...

I'm talking about Ashkenazi Jews specifically here. They're culturally, linguistically, genetically Germanic. Why not create a safe haven for them there? Especially given the rife anti-Semitism European Jews face in Europe by Europeans in the previous few decades. What better way to close a dark chapter in European history?

I'd say it's an even more absurd idea to take land from a native population who had nothing to do with the Russian progroms, the Holocaust and what have you and expect them to just not resist their lands, livelihoods and civil rights taken away from them.

Revan said:

That is not true though.

Click to expand...

I tried to raise that point and was summarily ignored. Israel have been accused of genocide at the ICJ, and will be tried at some point in the future.