I said nearer rather than the same, I don’t believe anyone will pay £73 million for Sancho and pay his current wages but if he puts in a big performance in the CL final getting £50 million and likely subsidising his wages by say £100K a week for the last couple of years of his contract is realistic.
Erik ten Hag vs Sancho
- Thread starter Someone
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) was joined by comedian Ali Woods to look back at the best and worst moments of a rollercoaster season with the annual United Hour Awards.
Has Ten Hag been sacked yet? We're not sure and we hope not, but it's looking more likely as the days pass.
Who should replace him and why is it taking so long to make a decision?
I don't think he managed him well, no. Yes he gave him opportunities that weren't taken but to then scapegoat him felt harsh, especially when it felt like he was covering his own arse by outing him, he could have outed most of the squad to be quite honest. I think the majority of people on here want ETH out because his inability to change games and try new things when plan A doesn't work shows he's clearly limited in ideas. His signings have been in the main woeful and an utter waste of money that will see the club with financial burdens for a few years yet and frankly he's taken the club backwards with no style of play and we've become a team that is limited in ideas in attack and completely clueless in defence.
To me this is irrelevant now. Let's wait for the new manager to come him and let him decide. If the new manager doesn't want Sancho hope Dortmund don't lowball us, but I know chances are slim unless other big club interested, I'm looking at you Barcelona.
It's not ETHs fault the club gave Sancho a 300k a week contract when all he did was have a few good seasons in the bundesliga, making him near impossible to sell if he flopped.
I think Ten Hag did the right thing but from the casual observer, people not reading redcafe, I'm sorry but this is a disaster and a stick to beat the manager with. It's not fair, most on here don't with agree with it but United is awful with Ten Hag's man Antony especially a joke and Sancho is going to play in a champions League final and that's where it begins and ends for most.
I don't think EtH did any dirty laundry in public. IIRC, he basically just said that when putting a team together you have to assess their mentality or focus as well as assessing their physical performance.
So he was just saying that he had options which he felt were better than Sancho for that week. That's not to absolve him of the many issues this team has shown, repeatedly.
I imagine this is a culmination of a period of not seeing eye to eye so in my opinion they both have to share some responsibility with Sancho taking the greater share.
Regardless of our next manager I would find it hard to support Sancho because he seems like the opposite of the saying 'if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen'.
So he was just saying that he had options which he felt were better than Sancho for that week. That's not to absolve him of the many issues this team has shown, repeatedly.
I imagine this is a culmination of a period of not seeing eye to eye so in my opinion they both have to share some responsibility with Sancho taking the greater share.
Regardless of our next manager I would find it hard to support Sancho because he seems like the opposite of the saying 'if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen'.
We agree it's not ETH's fault Sancho is on 300k/week, but it is ETH's fault that he hasn't managed to get Sancho up to speed or find a way to get through to him.
I don't think you understand how big a talent he is/was though.
"All he did was have a few good seasons in the bundesliga" (from wing or am positions, 18-21 years old):
18/19: 13 goals and 20 assists in 2967 minutes (1,00 G+A/90)
19/20: 20 goals and 20 assists in 3274 minutes (1,10 G+A/90)
20/21: 16 goals and 20 assists in 2974 minutes (1,09 G+A/90)
Those numbers are simply insane. Much better than KDB's (0,79 G+A/90), Son's (0,55 G+A/90) or Ozil's (0,76 G+A/90) numbers in Germany or Wirtz' (0,76 G+A/90) or Musiala (0,73 G+A/90)....honorable mentions Havertz (0,61 G+A/90) and Dembele (0,82 G+A/90)
It's a disgrace from our management to not find a way to make this work and get the most out of him. Him being immature and having problems coping with time and pressure is not an excuse.
Hopefully the next manager finds a way through to him, because his ceiling is as high as it gets.
Please tell me you are joking. Find a way to get to him? He gave him half a season out in Holland, with personalized trainers to get him up to speed. Get through to him? He doesn't care, it's as simple as that. If you are a normal human being, you would appreciate what the coach did for you, when he shielded you from criticism while the club was paying you a fortune to be in the Netherlands, sorting out his mental issues. You would puke blood to pay him off if there was 2% compassion.
Instead, this manchild publicly states that the coach is a liar. He doesn't want to be called out because of his laziness, tardiness, or whatever other flaw he has. He did not work under Ole, he did not work under Ten Hag. Get rid. I'm getting tired of people making excuses. The human approach was tried with him, he thinks he is bigger than the coach. Focking virus. Get rid.
I get what you are saying and I tend to agree, however I am not sure if sending him away was the right approach. Possibly that way to handle things only reassured him, that Manchester isn't the right environment for him. Which isn't the result United/EtH would have hoped for.
Your get loads of criticism with this post but I tend to agree with you. The Club had 3 right wingers aged 20-22 when ETH joined, Sancho, Amad and Pellistri. None of them were absolute inverted strikers like Mo Salah who would get you 20PL goals per season, one was still developing but an international, the other was about to go on loan and take the championship by storm, so you had Sancho and Pellistri with Rashford and Garnaucho as depth with Martial who if fit could also play left wing, there was absolutely no reason whatsoever to go buy Antony, to insist on buying him at a record £82.5m when he was not and never will be a sure thing, he was the same age as Sancho and this just pissed Sancho off, he wants to play not be on the bench, we never needed Antony but could have used that money plus one of Casemiro to buy Declan Rice and still had £50m left over to buy an elite CB too.
The fact we are looking at M Olise and I tend to think Amad will be developed by the next coach as his ability on the ball and his ability to play 8,10 as well as inverted/creative winger makes me feel that Sancho is being sold which is a shame because his ceiling is much higher than Antony’s. In an ideal world we will try and sell Antony for £30m and keep Sancho, and he should be played more frequently, if he’s going to be a bench player on £300k per week, the club must sell him and that decision belongs to the new coach and no one else?
Again though, he wasn't 'scapegoated', it wasn't even a story until Sancho was silly enough to make a public tweet about it. He'd been dropped for a while, why do you think that was if not for training and on pitch performance? So ETH being pushed by a journo and saying he'd not hit the training levels required is just what all coaches in all sports do surely?
Everyone saying ETH outed Sancho and used him as a scapegoat are dreaming. His performances on the pitch were poor for a long time, one good game every 5 and wasn’t performing at all. We don’t get to see how he trains either and have to trust the managers judgement on this.
Pep, Poch, Ange have called out some of there players this season and none of the players react the same as what Sancho has.
This attitude isn’t something new and these issues have followed him throughout his career and didn’t come as a surprise.
Maybe the public criticism was viewed as a way of motivating him and he’s went the opposite way. Sine being back in Dortmund he’s had a few good performances out of all the games he’s started.
Sooner he’s gone for good the better it will be for the club. We can reinvest his wages into players that want to be here and fight for the team.
Pep, Poch, Ange have called out some of there players this season and none of the players react the same as what Sancho has.
This attitude isn’t something new and these issues have followed him throughout his career and didn’t come as a surprise.
Maybe the public criticism was viewed as a way of motivating him and he’s went the opposite way. Sine being back in Dortmund he’s had a few good performances out of all the games he’s started.
Sooner he’s gone for good the better it will be for the club. We can reinvest his wages into players that want to be here and fight for the team.
We are among the biggest sporting enterprises in the world. We've spent 85M EUR + wages on a player that we know have the talent (he consistantly showed it at his previous club at a very young age), but he hasn't met the expectation we had to him by himself. Hire enough good people around him to make sure he gets enough sleep, gets to training on time, to make sure he has the right mindset, to make sure he understands etc. Don't leave it to a 21 year old to figure this out or understand how this works himself. To be the best and maximize our edge against our competitors we need to have the best apparatus around the performance group to make sure everything is set to maximize every training session, food, sleep and team performances from preseason to the last match of the season every season as well as having good coaches and the good players. Make sure the players understand that playing football at Manchester United is not just a wellpaid job, it's being an elite athlete and what sacrifices comes with that. In that aspect we've done a pretty poor job.
Knowing Sancho's ceiling and not trying every angle (we haven't) to get him to perform to his max level, and then be happy to sell with massive losses isn't just bad business, it's bad on every level. It's a failure for the club and it also makes us less attractive for other WC talents. In stead of being a club where top talents come to develop even further and experience success, we're a club where top talents stagnate, flop or doesn't fulfill their potential.
What did Dortmund do that we couldn't? How did they manage him? No one is unmanageble.
If you're coming through the ranks in a smaller league now and catch the interest of the big clubs, why would anyone choose Manchester United now? That's why we need a new manager and that's why we need to show that we can handle different personalities and not give up on talent so easily.
I'd like to see a new management have a go with the players with the highest ceilings before binning them. Sancho being one of the players I'd like to see get that chance.
You only profit from playing on the right as a right footed winger when you're pacy and physically strong so you can beat your fullback on the outside. Sancho isn't such a winger and never was. When he cuts inside, he leaves the ball exposed to the backline (since he controls it with the foot closer to the goal) and is unable to shield it and even more importantly, he ends up having to take all the technically difficult shots and passes (the forward ones) with his less gifted foot. He can still do a job in the right setup as we currently see in Dortmun dbut he's much more natural when playing on the left and it was the right choice to play him there. You should rather ask yourself why you brought in a LW for €80m when you already had two in your squad.
IMO, Sancho failed for you because of the same reasons that make him better on the left: He's not a classic winger who beats his fullback with power and speed to then whip in a cross. His weapons of choice are body feints, close control, agility, flick passes, quick ones twos, you name it. But for that to work you need strikers who come short and make runs that drag defenders out of position, full backs who make runs inbehind or make themselves available for link up play, midfielders who retain possession well instead of trying to play the striker through all the time, etc. If you were such a team, then it wouldn't matter that much which side you play him. He'd still be better on the left but could also show very good performances on the right. But he doesn't work in isolation, regardless of left or right.
But he can’t play left wing in the premier league. The problems he suffers on the left are that he doesn’t have the pace to get down the outside and, even if he does create a yard of space, his left foot isn’t good enough. That means he can only cut inside but everyone knows he will do that. In the premier league, he generally didn’t have the tight control and speed of thought to make it work under that pressure.
He’s a much better right winger because he can use his burst of acceleration to occasionally go down the wing and get a cross in, or play in an overlapping fullback. That creates more problems for the defence as they can’t be certain that he will cut inside and so he can get a bit more space when he does moves in-field. He can then get his head up and pick a pass and link up with players for some short passes/1-2s etc.
Even assuming that what you indicate about the EPL is true (a view that can't be challenged enough IMO), I can't follow your reasoning. Beating your man on the outside requires strength and pace which Sancho doesn't have in your opinion, so you want him to play in a position in which those attributes are even more important?
And if he seems predictable then this is, at least partly, because United isn't providing him with enough options to pick from for there to be an element of surprise. That aside, judging from what I've seen, Sancho was better for United than given credit for. His type of player is typically more appreciated in Spain or Italy. Ironically, I think this stylistic preference for pace and physicality is one of the main reasons why the EPL fails to convert their monetary dominance into an equally as big competitive advantage so far. Don't get me wrong, Sancho is definitely not without blame. But I think those things definitely play a huge role in his failure at your club.
In short, we invested 85M and have no idea how to use him. He is not the worst, see Antony. No wonder we are the laughing stock of world football.
The problem is neither of them are good enough for United.
Both need to go. If I have to pick one, Sancho to stay. Simple fact, results wise, ETH is terrible and Sancho is in CL Final. No comparison.
I actually work with people, different ages, backgrounds, nationalities etc. I'm in management for a US company that sees yearly overturn of about 15m on average.
My job has taken me to work with different profile of people, graphic designers, software developers, admin, HR, Sales etc.
One of the assumptions that I had for every employee was that you can manage him into making him a good employee who can raise through the ranks. We had bad hires at times. Lazy, late, arogant. I had to learn quickly how to manage such employees as I always assumed that there is agood worker there no matter what, up until one day, the owner of the company pulled me to the side and asked me why I'm I trying so hard with a specific employee. He told me a saying that I see daily application for. You can bring the horse to the water, but you can't make him drink.
Now, I totally understand that a simple employee which you can replace much easer than 73m asset that has valid 5 year contract on 300k a week are nowhere near similar In comparison. What I truly think is that Sancho is missing life in Germany.
You mentioned that Dortmund got the best of him. Well, he had the same issues in Dortmund as well, one being late. The reasons that I can think of why Dortmund was not making fuss about it were
- He is an asset that they had to increase the cost to in order to get the most money possible
- They had to keep him happy in order for him to play at the level he did
- Keeping his tardiness hash-hash meant no bad media coverage
Granting him special privileges like he is a primadona, I truly believe would not paint the club in a good way, especially since Sancho has not performed well since he got here. You are opening the door for everyone else to act the same as him or to drop performance levels if they don't get the treatment like him. I truly want him gone, he is too arrogant to be properly coached, and he believes his own hype. Let's not forget that he failed in England shirt as well.
To circle back to my point, he likes it in Germany, rules are loosened for him, no media pressure, and his bad games goes without notice, as everyone was talking about Bayern.
You have good and valid points, but I still think a new management should get a go with him before getting rid. I'm not asking us to build our squad around him. Half a season with new management where we either see changes or get rid.
The reason I want this is because I see how horribly bad ETH is at man management and getting anything more than the absolute minimum out of the players at his disposal.
Last edited:
But the same problems were there under Ole.
And the one thing you can't say about Ole is that he wasn't good at man management.
Sanchos never been in physical shape in his time at United. He's clearly been overweight compared to his two periods with Dortmund.
Try being a tricky winger when you're carrying excess bodyweight.
That was on Sancho. 300k per week with all the nutritionists, chefs, personal trainers and strength and conditioning coaches he could want.
He didn't act like a professional athlete, throw him and Luke Shaw in the skip where they belong. Even the top players that didn't look after their body's don't last, just like Wayne Rooney in his 30s. He was done in comparison to his peak.
If Sanchos going to come back to England and fall into his same routines and habits then it's pointless. Sell him asap and use the funds on someone who has more motivation to succeed.
Try being a tricky winger when you're carrying excess bodyweight.
That was on Sancho. 300k per week with all the nutritionists, chefs, personal trainers and strength and conditioning coaches he could want.
He didn't act like a professional athlete, throw him and Luke Shaw in the skip where they belong. Even the top players that didn't look after their body's don't last, just like Wayne Rooney in his 30s. He was done in comparison to his peak.
If Sanchos going to come back to England and fall into his same routines and habits then it's pointless. Sell him asap and use the funds on someone who has more motivation to succeed.
Exactly. Sancho at Dortmund this season - 19 appearances, 3 goals, 2 assists. He had a good match in the semi final but aside from that, he's been his same inconsistent self.
Ole managed him for 3 months. Sancho wasn’t up to PL speed yet and his minutes were managed, but has there been records Ole and Sancho were not on good terms?
Ole for 3 months and then the same poor form under Rangnick. Followed by the same poor form under ETH.
That's three managers he's under performed for.
I'd say there's one constant here.
Ten Hag has gotten a ton of stuff wrong but this is one that he has gotten right I feel.
Sancho can be man of the match in the CL semi final and final and it will take his total number of games performing at the level we had hoped in the past few years to a grand total of.......2.
The fact that Sancho is in the CL final (and being a reason Dortmund are as well) is masking the fact that even before the Arsenal game he had been rubbish anyway and not getting picked. He was clearly given additional resources by the club (the mid season break) and the game he came back Ten Hag looked delighted to be bringing him on.
Sancho can be man of the match in the CL semi final and final and it will take his total number of games performing at the level we had hoped in the past few years to a grand total of.......2.
The fact that Sancho is in the CL final (and being a reason Dortmund are as well) is masking the fact that even before the Arsenal game he had been rubbish anyway and not getting picked. He was clearly given additional resources by the club (the mid season break) and the game he came back Ten Hag looked delighted to be bringing him on.
Agreed, there's some degree of throwing the baby out with the bathwater over this. It's perfectly possible to be critical of many aspects of ETH's management, without going scorched earth and saying everything he has done is shit.
Underperformances or inconsistancy is not a constant, especially for someone who has performed consistantly at a very high level in the past. He's been underwhelming, but we have also seen what he's capable of and know that's not his ceiling. So what are we doing wrong?
Not easy to perform or get better when you're not in the squad or training with the first team though......A 85M player on 300k/week not permitted to even train with the team for not saying sorry for openly disagreeing with the manager. That's some seriously bad asset management right there. Mindblowing!
Try to imagine being a super talented young player looking for the big move and looking for the right club. With this management all the red lights must be blinking and every alarm must go off looking at us right now. Stay away!
But was he performing before then?
He did nothing under Ole, he did nothing under ETH first season and he got plenty of games and got worse after the summer.
He had 3 cameos from the bench before being frozen out. Kept on the bench by Antony and Garnacho, then not in the squad at all and outed by ETH for not giving enough in training. If you seriously believe freezing him out of the squad and sticking with Antony/Garnacho and Hojlund the entire season was the best way of handling the situation and a reasonable response, then we must agree to disagree on that. Do you really think we'd be worse off this season having Sancho in the squad? Frozen out of the squad for a silly "pride/disagreement" thing.
That probably cost us 20-40M plus what might have been from a sporting perspective.
Last edited:
You lot have really short memories. It seems the less he's played and been here, the more Sancho has improved in people's eyes. He was a nothing player for us his entire time here, constantly disappearing in games. ETH is awful, and should have kept it private, but did Sancho have to escalate the situation with a public statement he couldn't back up? Especially with how bad he was performing, the lengths the club went for him in the past, and his laziness? Please.
I will never support any player that responds the way he did publicly to the manager. It shows he has no respect for the club or symbol of authority. However, the way ETH has gone about player selection and how he has hanged some players out to dry shows bias. He has given Antony consistent run and hardly gave Sancho any consistent run, and has continuously backed Antony regardless which shows bias. The same way he has backed Rashford when he has not deserved it.
He has his favourites and unfortunately Amad and Sancho are not it even at the detriment of the team. Sancho might not have done much with the opportunities he had but he has largely been better than Antony with the opportunities he got
He has his favourites and unfortunately Amad and Sancho are not it even at the detriment of the team. Sancho might not have done much with the opportunities he had but he has largely been better than Antony with the opportunities he got
My point exactly. We wont miss much if he is sold
He hasn't actually been THAT good for Dortmund either.
He used to be quite good before we bought him...
It's the Bundesliga, though.
No matter the on pitch outcome, the club and the Manager did the right thing cracking down on his public show of dissent. Can;t have that and expect the Manager to retain a shred of authority... not that he seems to have long left, now, anyway.
I think that ETH fell in one of the oldest PR tricks in football.
A- a young player is signed on silly money and salary
B- it's evident early on that he lacks the attitude to succeed at top level. In fact he barely plays under Ole's regime
C- Eth comes in, clean sleet and all that. Sancho comes out with excuses which allowed him some breathing space (trip to Amsterdam yada)
D- At one point patience was set to run thin, Sancho would have had to deliver and some sort of narrative will need to be built to prepare the fans that he's leaving. Instead of playing to ETH's game were he accepts criticism, Sancho goes on the offensive. He blames the manager thus creating an alternative version of the argument. Maybe ETH is not good enough, maybe he mishandled him, maybe he was the unprofessional guy
E-Sancho leaves on loan to the club he wanted IE a club who couldn't afford him u less we pay most of his salary
Sancho had hired the same PR team that represents Ronaldo, Varane, Rashford and 8 games in a season mason mount. Is it a coincidence that we had huge issues with every single one of them ?