‘Elite’ hipster CBs vs Maguire & Lindelöf

[Bastian]

With Lindelof - who is now regarded as not that far off world class defenders, who in turn have turned to shite because of one game - what people may want to ask themselves is do they trust him next to another relatively weak centre back?

I remember Bailly and Lindelof as a pairing. They needed Fellaini to hold their hands against physical teams. I could handle seeing Maguire with either of them, but them as a pairing is asking for trouble.

Also, interesting points @Ekeke regarding AWB's defensive covering. It may have been sacrificed to a degree since the re-start, to get him further up the pitch, but we were afforded that too with having a better ball playing first XI that wasn't set up negatively (as before) and soaking up as much pressure.

 

[sammsky1]

I feel like this thread is a fascinating case study in how people can go completely mental in hot weather. I prescribe an ice tea for you all.

iced lemon water for me!

 

[SadlerMUFC]

Maguire got turned by Zaha, a not so elite striker. So did Lindelof, brushed off by the mighty Giroud.

You just need to watch games of why Varane was deemed elite, instead of basing one or a few games to compare him to Maguire and lindelof.

Does anyone else see the irony in this statement above

 

[Lentwood]

It’s simple really - modern defenders are expected to be perfect and if you’re not your a “donkey” or “championship level”

Simple thought experiment which backs up that idea...

Name me 20 top class forwards...

Now name me 20 top class centre halves...

I guarantee every single poster would find it easy to name 20 top class forward but could barely name me 5/6 top class centre halves.

The over-analysis of defenders is crippling. Every goal or chance even is slowed down and shown from 10 angles in an effort to scapegoat somebody

 

[Leethal]

Maguire got turned by Zaha, a not so elite striker. So did Lindelof, brushed off by the mighty Giroud.

You just need to watch games of why Varane was deemed elite, instead of basing one or a few games to compare him to Maguire and lindelof.

Does anyone else see the irony in this statement above

Wait: Did this guy just give Varane a free pass for a dog shit game, (saying you can't judge a player from an isolated incident), then contradict himself in the same paragraph by crucifying Maguire and Lindelof for an isolated incident?

People really are fecking strange. And stupid. Or both.

 

[SAFMUTD]

It’s simple really - modern defenders are expected to be perfect and if you’re not your a “donkey” or “championship level”

Simple thought experiment which backs up that idea...

Name me 20 top class forwards...

Now name me 20 top class centre halves...

I guarantee every single poster would find it easy to name 20 top class forward but could barely name me 5/6 top class centre halves.

The over-analysis of defenders is crippling. Every goal or chance even is slowed down and shown from 10 angles in an effort to scapegoat somebody

To be fair this are poor poor times for CBs. In the 00s we had the chance to see defenders such as Campbell, Thuram, Maldini, Ferdinand, Vidic, Cannavaro, Nesta, Terry, Carvahlo, etc

Now we have VVD, Ramos, Godin, Chiellini that may be mentioned amongst the one above, and some debatable ones such as Pique, Boateng, Hummels, Thiago Silva. But overall I think this are poor times for centerbacks, that explains why Maguire cost us 80M and Koulibaly is rumored to be on the move for 70M.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

Wait: Did this guy just give Varane a free pass for a dog shit game, (saying you can't judge a player from an isolated incident), then contradict himself in the same paragraph by crucifying Maguire and Lindelof for an isolated incident?

People really are fecking strange. And stupid. Or both.

He most certainly did

 

[Mindhunter]

To be fair this are poor poor times for CBs. In the 00s we had the chance to see defenders such as Campbell, Thuram, Maldini, Ferdinand, Vidic, Cannavaro, Nesta, Terry, Carvahlo, etc

Now we have VVD, Ramos, Godin, Chiellini that may be mentioned amongst the one above, and some debatable ones such as Pique, Boateng, Hummels, Thiago Silva. But overall I think this are poor times for centerbacks, that explains why Maguire cost us 80M and Koulibaly is rumored to be on the move for 70M.

The game is different though. Those defenders could get away with murder but now you have to smile for the cameras. Also, you are in constant fear of the ball touching your hand (accidentally or otherwise) and then you are at the mercy of VAR.

I really think being a defender in modern times is really difficult. Here is why:

• The role has evolved with quite a few hipster managers demanding ball playing and ball carrying or sweeping abilities; also they need to fit into the general pattern of play
• VAR punishes each and every mistake, without fail
• Attacking play in general has improved; gone are the days of 2 strikers against 2 CBs match up with teams playing creatively with false nines and shadow strikers and move movement and switching between positions

 

[SAFMUTD]

The game is different though. Those defenders could get away with murder but now you have to smile for the cameras. Also, you are in constant fear of the ball touching your hand (accidentally or otherwise) and then you are at the mercy of VAR.

I really think being a defender in modern times is really difficult. Here is why:

• The role has evolved with quite a few hipster managers demanding ball playing and ball carrying or sweeping abilities; also they need to fit into the general pattern of play
• VAR punishes each and every mistake, without fail
• Attacking play in general has improved; gone are the days of 2 strikers against 2 CBs match up with teams playing creatively with false nines and shadow strikers and move movement and switching between positions

I think the first point about the managers demanding ball playing center backs is the most critical one, same as with goal keepers now top ones are expected to be as technicall as midfielders, so the pure defensive ones are being left out. But this can be said when comparing practically every era in any sport, the sport evolves and players must adapt. There are very few players who would have shined, hypotetically, in any era.

 

[Lentwood]

To be fair this are poor poor times for CBs. In the 00s we had the chance to see defenders such as Campbell, Thuram, Maldini, Ferdinand, Vidic, Cannavaro, Nesta, Terry, Carvahlo, etc

Now we have VVD, Ramos, Godin, Chiellini that may be mentioned amongst the one above, and some debatable ones such as Pique, Boateng, Hummels, Thiago Silva. But overall I think this are poor times for centerbacks, that explains why Maguire cost us 80M and Koulibaly is rumored to be on the move for 70M.

That's my point though - I'm not sure these are poor times for CBs, I just think ridiculously unachievable expectations are set for them. They have to be perfect every single game or they are labelled as 'error-prone', 'unreliable', 'erratic' etc...Not to mention they can't just be good at defending the penalty area any longer, they have to play 20yrds higher AND be brilliant on the ball

If you where to go back and analyse the likes of Campbell, Ferdinand, Vidic, Thuram etc...in the style the modern game is analysed you would see they made plenty of errors that would be absolutely taken apart by pundits and fans

The argument that the average standard of players in any position is going down just doesn't wash with me at all. Football has come on leaps and bounds since the 2000s, it's almost a different game now tactically and physically

 

[SAFMUTD]

That's my point though - I'm not sure these are poor times for CBs, I just think ridiculously unachievable expectations are set for them. They have to be perfect every single game or they are labelled as 'error-prone', 'unreliable', 'erratic' etc...Not to mention they can't just be good at defending the penalty area any longer, they have to play 20yrds higher AND be brilliant on the ball

If you where to go back and analyse the likes of Campbell, Ferdinand, Vidic, Thuram etc...in the style the modern game is analysed you would see they made plenty of errors that would be absolutely taken apart by pundits and fans

The argument that the average standard of players in any position is going down just doesn't wash with me at all. Football has come on leaps and bounds since the 2000s, it's almost a different game now tactically and physically

I agree, during the covid break ESPN was broadcasting a lot of late 90s early 00s games so I watch a lot of them and the speed and technique is totally different. Looking at them right now I dont think any of those teams would had a chance on todays game. Same is with defenders they looked so dominant then but surely wouldnt be on today, at least playing the same way.

But every player and team should be judged according to their era, Im sure a new generation of defenders will arise and we'll see some dominating talents again, its just how any sport evolves.

 

[Lentwood]

Pundit/Media/Fan's definition of a good player =

Striker - scores goals
AM/Winger - makes goals
DM - wins posession
CB - great in the air, fast, excellent on the ball, composed, brave, difficult to beat, good positional sense, good tackler

You never hear someone go ' that Salah scores plenty of goals but not great in the air and not a good tackler so not world-class in my book'

 

[Leftback99]

Pundit/Media/Fan's definition of a good player =

Striker - scores goals
AM/Winger - makes goals
DM - wins posession
CB - great in the air, fast, excellent on the ball, composed, brave, difficult to beat, good positional sense, good tackler

You never hear someone go ' that Salah scores plenty of goals but not great in the air and not a good tackler so not world-class in my book'

The average pundit/media/fan will also overrate average centre backs if they score a couple of goals or make some last ditch challenges (usually because they've been caught out of position in the first place). Good positioning doesn't make match of the day highlights.

 

[El Jefe]

I suppose Upemacano is an elite hipster CB too?

I've seen many posters on the caf say he's not an obvious upgrade to our defence which is laughable.

 

[Paxi]

He’s got a hipster name that’s for sure.

 

[ravelston]

He's about the same level as Smalling and Maguire, but with a ton more upside.

 

[Yagami]

Some respect needs to be put on his name.

 

[sammsky1]

Am adding Alaba to this hipster list.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Add Laporte while you're at it.

 

[Andycoleno9]

After watching CL tournament Lindelof-Maguire look as a true world class pair.

 

[glazed]

Problem is that van Dijk makes everyone else look a bit second rate.

 

[Ekeke]

Laporte was always one of these. He was pretty good on the ball but he isnt the greatest defender

 

[sammsky1]

After watching CL tournament Lindelof-Maguire look as a true world class pair.

Yes! This is exactly why I created this thread. Over the past 2 years, the moaners would regularly announce a fancy new hipster who we had to sign, else we'd get lampooned into the Championship. Simultaneously Maguire/Lindelof were ridiculed and abused.

Turns out that Maguire/Lindelof are capable of going unbeaten for 2 months, and deliver one of the very best defensive records in PL, despite a terrible start to the season and an erratic goalkeeper.

My OP never claimed that Maguire/Lindelof were the very best in the world, I was simply stating that they are in the same ballpark, and on the improvement trajectory. Sure, it wouldn't harm us to get in another quality CB, but that is about depth and competition for places, as it is upgrading.

 

[Ekeke]

Yes! This is exactly why I created this thread. Over the past 2 years, the moaners would regularly announce a fancy new hipster who we had to sign, else we'd get lampooned into the Championship. Simultaneously Maguire/Lindelof were ridiculed and abused.

Turns out that Maguire/Lindelof are capable of going unbeaten for 2 months, and deliver one of the very best defensive records in PL, despite a terrible start top the season and an erratic goalkeeper.

My OP never claimed that Maguire/Lindelof were the very best in the world, I was simply stating that they are in the same ballpark, and on the improvement trajectory. Sure, it wouldn't harm us to get in another quality CB, but that is about depth and competition for places, as it is upgrading.

+ AWB + Shaw +/- De Gea

We actually conceded the least goals in open play this season, where we were behind Liverpool and City is on set pieces

What is the first stop to improving your record on set pieces? Usually the answer is making sure your CBs are good in the air, or your keeper coming for crosses

 

[Adnan]

+ AWB + Shaw +/- De Gea

We actually conceded the least goals in open play this season, where we were behind Liverpool and City is on set pieces

What is the first stop to improving your record on set pieces? Usually the answer is making sure your CBs are good in the air, or your keeper coming for crosses

Don't forget the midfielders like McTominay and Fred. It's been a collective effort in a reactive approach IMO.

 

[Ekeke]

Don't forget the midfielders like McTominay and Fred. It's been a collective effort in a reactive approach IMO.

For sure its a team effort, especially as we're trying to press more. Bruno for example is always pressing and both Bruno, Greenwood and I guess Lingard last day of the season had success closing opponents down high up the pitch leading to goals

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

Laporte was always one of these. He was pretty good on the ball but he isnt the greatest defender

Sounds like the guy they spend £50m on, John Stones?

 

[Adnan]

For sure its a team effort, especially as we're trying to press more. Bruno for example is always pressing and both Bruno, Greenwood and I guess Lingard last day of the season had success closing opponents down high up the pitch leading to goals

Agreed.

 

[Ekeke]

Sounds like the guy they spend £50m on, John Stones?

Yes him too, I havent seen him much this season but I've seen some comments from City fans that he isnt good on the ball either. Lets just remember for the past couple of seasons this forum has been full of people pining for us to have a defense like City. Their style always risked being suicidal, they play it perfectly and get away with it like the season before last and when its not quite right they are extremely vulnerable

 

[Adnan]

Yes him too, I havent seen him much this season but I've seen some comments from City fans that he isnt good on the ball either. Lets just remember for the past couple of seasons this forum has been full of people pining for us to have a defense like City. Their style always risked being suicidal, they play it perfectly and get away with it like the season before last and when its not quite right they are extremely vulnerable

The issue with City is that they don't have pace in the backline. They've literally wasted money like noone else in England. After Kompany retired they didn't even replace him which was a very bad move when looking back at it with hindsight.

Guardiola wants to dominate the ball and take the game to the opposition which requires your CBs to push up and play a highline which he really can't do effectively with slow CBs. We have the same problem and if we tried to play a highline against top quality opposition with our current CBs we'd also get put to the sword in defensive transition. We're a good defensive team in a low block with midfielders and fullbacks supporting the CBs.

 

[Ekeke]

The issue with City is that they don't have pace in the backline. They've literally wasted money like noone else in England. After Kompany retired they didn't even replace him which was a very bad move when looking back at it with hindsight.

Guardiola wants to dominate the ball and take the game to the opposition which requires your CBs to push up and play a highline which he really can't do effectively with slow CBs. We have the same problem and if we tried to play a highline against top quality opposition with our current CBs we'd also get put to the sword in defensive transition. We're a good defensive team in a low block with midfielders and fullbacks supporting the CBs.

Yes I agree thats very much a concern for us. And we most certainly have a more defensive setup than that of City or Liverpool. Thats been key to us conceeding much less than the previous season

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

After watching CL tournament Lindelof-Maguire look as a true world class pair.

Maybe, but we haven't seen that pairing in the Champions League.

 

[A-man]

What is the first stop to improving your record on set pieces? Usually the answer is making sure your CBs are good in the air, or your keeper coming for crosses

Not necessarily. I looked at the set piece goals we have conceded this season. I only found 9 of the 11, but from those 9 only 2 were headed goals. A headed clearance could still have avoided some of the goals, but then it is often someone else than the CB who should have headed it. Burnley goal is a good example of it. It would help with more players who are good or decent in the air, rather than upgrading a cb. And there is much to do with the organisation around set pieces.

It also looks as we are much better at setpieces the last half of the season. Most conceded goals were in the first half.

Southampton 2-2 footed goal but a heade could have avoided it. Poor organisation.

Burnley 0-2 free kick far out, Matic lost header and then footed goal.

Arsenal 0-2 corner goal by foot but could have been cleared in the air

Watford 0-2 free kick and goal by foot, Howler by DDG.

Villa 2-2 footed, never in the air

Wolves 1-1 corner, shot from far out, never in the air

Southampton 1-1 headed goal second wave from corner

West Ham 0-2 free kick shot

Brighton 3-1 headed corner

 

[El Jefe]

Our world class pairing produced another blinder today. That's two semi finals with awful defending this season. Embarrassing against Chelsea and today also.

All well and good having a go at better players in the CL, when ours can't show up in the EL.

Joke of a thread.

 

[RoyH1]

What makes a CB “hipster”? Chai latteswith lactose free milk? Long oiled beards? Tattoos with organically produced ink? Carefully curated vinyl collections?

 

[el3mel]

Know this will backfire. @sammsky1 I like you as a poster even when we disagree but man, you should really have waited.

 

[Tyrion]

Turns out that Maguire/Lindelof are capable of going unbeaten for 2 months, and deliver one of the very best defensive records in PL, despite a terrible start to the season and an erratic goalkeeper.

The whole team managed the unbeaten run, not just those two and that terrible start to the season happened while they were there as well.

What makes a CB “hipster”? Chai latteswith lactose free milk? Long oiled beards? Tattoos with organically produced ink? Carefully curated vinyl collections?

If they're not at United, then they're "hipster" apparently.

 

[sammsky1]

Know this will backfire. @sammsky1 I like you as a poster even when we disagree but man, you should really have waited.

It was poor defending, but we doesn’t lose because of them at all.

We should have been way ahead by then. Our much vaunted MMM who many posters salivate over have a lot to answer for. I blame them.

 

[Ekeke]

This thread has now reached its peak. Well done OP

 

[sammsky1]

This thread has now reached its peak. Well done OP

See my post above