Argentina 1978 (25.7), Italy 2006 (29.6), Brazil 1962 (30.7).What are the outliers?
Argentina 1978 (25.7), Italy 2006 (29.6), Brazil 1962 (30.7).What are the outliers?
Agreed. There will always be notable exceptions of players getting a bit too comfortable earlier (Ando for instance) and those who show incredible passion later; but all in all, the players who are hungrier, more creative, and have a more intense desire to succeed are (imo) more in the younger category.I was watching a documentary about Fergie from 1995 recently and one of the things he said really stood out. It was when the “kids” like Beckham and Scholes had just come through and the first great double winning team of 1994 was breaking up. He said he was always looking for young players to bring in who were “up for the challenge” and “hungry for success”.
That was the cornerstones of Fergie’s longevity and success. Bring in young players who have yet to achieve big things in the game. Players with ability, potential, a strong mentality and are hungry to succeed. Guide them, mold them and that hunger will drive them to achieve great things.
And once Fergie saw the fire start to dim in certain player’s eyes after they won some trophies he shipped them out and got in the next hungry player.
The whole 29 argument is about this for me. Are these players still hungry and motivated like they were when they were 22/23/24. They’ve likely won trophies and accolades already. So what motivates them to keep achieving peak performance and go that extra mile required to make a team better than all the rest.
Some players (see Ronaldo) have an insatiable appetite to keep winning and be the very best. But there’s not many like him once players are pushing 30.
So for me I do worry when I see us linked with players in their late 20s. It’s not about ability. They’ve proven they’ve got that. It’s more about mentality and that is usually the difference between finishing first or second (or sixth!).
And to be honest I think this applies to many in our current squad as well. Not hungry enough, too comfortable.
I agree with all of this. I think it’s time to demand more is basically what I’m saying. How you actually go about that I don’t know, but with the right commitment and desire these players should be lasting longer and a debate about whether it’s worth signing a world class 29 year old shouldn’t exist because he’s about to decline.Agreed. There will always be notable exceptions of players getting a bit too comfortable earlier (Ando for instance) and those who show incredible passion later; but all in all, the players who are hungrier, more creative, and have a more intense desire to succeed are (imo) more in the younger category.
I agree with the general point about managing the ages of a squad, of course you wouldn't want several players hitting 32 at the same time and having to replace them all. However can we really say that about our squad at the moment? From my point of view we have a good range of ages in terms of two year bands for the purposes of squad management. Assuming Blind, Darmian & Fellaini leave, going into next season we'll have:Having a couple of players in their very late 20s / early 30s is fine. Having a lot is one of the reasons we struggled poat fergie.
Rather than a team naturally changing each year, you get to a ppint where 5 or 6 important players need to be replaced at once and its a mess.
I also believe that in general, it takes time for a team to gel and achieve greatness. A team with several older players doesn't have that time.
I'm not talking about alderweireld specifically but talk of willian as well is concerning.
I am thinking like Park Ji Sung, Gennaro Gattuso and players like that - “true” defensive midfielders who chase the ball down all game not deep lying midfielders like Pirlo etc.Do you mean the box to box midfielder? Defensive midfielders do just fine at that age.
Don't think that's how it works. When City started their project, they didn't go out and buy senior players to compete with a Man Utd full of senior elite players. They bought star young players in Kompany, Aguero and Silva. Their senior player at the time was Yaya Toure who was 27 at the time. That's an example of building a project.The older players at the club are not good enough. The ones at City are. That’s the difference. So City can sign younger players on top of the quality they already have. Therefore, we have to sign quality like matic and Sanchez, whilst also thinking about the future with signings like Bailly.
Most psychologists now advocate the age range for child psychology to work from 0-25 as opposed to the way it used to be (0-18). So our adolescence is lasting longer and our concious minds take longer to fully develop too. This science should make physical peaks for professional athletes last that little bit longer.I think it depends on the player.
Some 33/34 year olds have transformed sides, even back in 60's/70's eg Dave Mackay at Derby. Maldini and Giggs were unbelievable in their late 30's and you could also talk about so many others.
If the player is top class and can read the game then they should be able to make a difference to most sides regardless of age. Some players seem to just burn out. Maybe it's all to do with personality and drive??
I think all people, not just players peak mentally and physically at different times. Everyone is different lol.
What does that have to do with what Mourinho inherited and what is expected of him RIGHT NOW? People want us to compete with a City squad which has been built over several years with a squad who's older players were Carrick, Rooney and Valencia? How does this compare to Kompany, Aguero, Silva?Don't think that's how it works. When City started their project, they didn't go out and buy senior players to compete with a Man Utd full of senior elite players. They bought star young players in Kompany, Aguero and Silva. Their senior player at the time was Yaya Toure who was 27 at the time. That's an example of building a project.
We aren't just buying older players though. You say we should be looking to buy players who will be here for a decade, but realistically how often does that happen? What's the average length a player stays at a club, 4 years? If that.That's where scouting comes into play. We can't just keep buying older players because we haven't done an adequate job scouting younger ones - and by younger I don't mean youth players, I mean established starters at other big clubs.
This.I blame Football Manager.
How often does it happen ? Let's see..... Carrick, Evra, Ferdinand, Rooney, Valencia, Vidic, Evans, Smalling, JoS, et al have in the past decade been with us for anywhere between 8 and 13 years. That's the sort of profile we want and is why as I said, we have to be more judicious and comprehensive about investing in younger to mid twenties type players.We aren't just buying older players though. You say we should be looking to buy players who will be here for a decade, but realistically how often does that happen? What's the average length a player stays at a club, 4 years? If that.
To be fair. 50% of our signins since Jose have been long term. Bailly Lindelof Pogba and LukakuHow often does it happen ? Let's see..... Carrick, Evra, Ferdinand, Rooney, Valencia, Vidic, Evans, Smalling, JoS, et al have in the past decade been with us for anywhere between 8 and 13 years. That's the sort of profile we want and is why as I said, we have to be more judicious and comprehensive about investing in younger to mid twenties type players.
Definitely agree. The older players have largely been one offs. I'm sure our transfers will stablize a bit as we get more managerial continuity here. The constant switching between Fergie to Moyes to LvG to Jose has caused a lot of transfer turbulence.To be fair. 50% of our signins since Jose have been long term. Bailly Lindelof Pogba and Lukaku
I was debunking your theory that Man City has great older players so we should also buy some in order to compete. No we shouldn't. We have to buy established players who have gas left in their tank, aka Paul Pogba, Bailly, Lukaku, Herrera.What does that have to do with what Mourinho inherited and what is expected of him RIGHT NOW? People want us to compete with a City squad which has been built over several years with a squad who's older players were Carrick, Rooney and Valencia? How does this compare to Kompany, Aguero, Silva?
Remember when we were linked with Matic and the Caf 'experts' told us he was in an irreversible decline?This.
I’m just being cynicalWe shouldn't be buying players to sell them later on, should we ?
I am going to beat the same old drum, but what were the ages of those players when Real Madrid bought them? Can you give me an example of a 30 year old that Real bought for their first team in recent past?Ramos is 32. Modric nearly 33. Ronaldo 33.
Interesting. I would thought overall it would skew upwards. Experience is a huge benefit at World CupsArgentina 1978 (25.7), Italy 2006 (29.6), Brazil 1962 (30.7).
We should be buying quality. Full stop.I was debunking your theory that Man City has great older players so we should also buy some in order to compete. No we shouldn't. We have to buy established players who have gas left in their tank, aka Paul Pogba, Bailly, Lukaku, Herrera.
Unless you're talking about a freak like Zlatan who was still hitting his peak at 30, experienced players we buy should still be a couple of years from their 30s.
it really should be taken on a case by case basis.. things like body type, mileage, and injury history should be considered when a player is near 30. anyone who was blessed with the miracle of sight could have worked out Rooney would decline faster than say a ronaldo.Have seen this so often in recent years and it needs to stop. People mentioned it with Sanchez and I’m now seeing it in relation to alderweireld.
We live in a world where medical science is as good as it’s ever been. Physios are better, treatments are better, medication is better and recovery times are shorter.
This old adage that once you get close to 30 your career is on a downward trajectory needs to be banished from people’s minds. Cristiano Ronaldo is a freak but he’s not an alien, he’s the perfect example of what’s possible by looking after your body the right way, and there are several other examples of players in their early 30s playing at a very high level (there always have been).
I think it’s time to accept that a footballer can continue their form into their 30s and maybe even reach their peak in that age bracket, especially defenders.
Thoughts?
Now list all the players that haven’t lasted that long, and then compare that list to every other team in the league. You’ll find your list will dwarf in comparison. Even in 2011 our average length of service was less than 6 years, and that made us an outlier within the league. Jose has signed Lukaku, Pogba, Bailly who fit your profile. DDG is likely to get there, as is Lingard and Rashford has every chance to get there too. Signing 29 years olds doesn’t mean we aren’t going to be looking at the next big thing.How often does it happen ? Let's see..... Carrick, Evra, Ferdinand, Rooney, Valencia, Vidic, Evans, Smalling, JoS, et al have in the past decade been with us for anywhere between 8 and 13 years. That's the sort of profile we want and is why as I said, we have to be more judicious and comprehensive about investing in younger to mid twenties type players.
It’s easier to buy younger players when you ALREADY have quality. What do you not get about that? You want us to be at the level of Real Madrid then we need quality players regardless of age. When Pogba and Lukaku hit 28+ then we can say we have quality older players and need to add younger players. Right now the squad is not good enough and we need to add quality.I am going to beat the same old drum, but what were the ages of those players when Real Madrid bought them? Can you give me an example of a 30 year old that Real bought for their first team in recent past?
Disagree.We should be buying quality. Full stop.
Those same things also would help younger players.Have seen this so often in recent years and it needs to stop. People mentioned it with Sanchez and I’m now seeing it in relation to alderweireld.
We live in a world where medical science is as good as it’s ever been. Physios are better, treatments are better, medication is better and recovery times are shorter.
This old adage that once you get close to 30 your career is on a downward trajectory needs to be banished from people’s minds. Cristiano Ronaldo is a freak but he’s not an alien, he’s the perfect example of what’s possible by looking after your body the right way, and there are several other examples of players in their early 30s playing at a very high level (there always have been).
I think it’s time to accept that a footballer can continue their form into their 30s and maybe even reach their peak in that age bracket, especially defenders.
Thoughts?
I’m just being cynical
Its not a matter of comparing between the two - its more so to illustrate that the core of our success has been built around players who have stayed with us for many years. We need to get back to building the spine of the club around a new group.Now list all the players that haven’t lasted that long, and then compare that list to every other team in the league. You’ll find your list will dwarf in comparison. Even in 2011 our average length of service was less than 6 years, and that made us an outlier within the league. Jose has signed Lukaku, Pogba, Bailly who fit your profile. DDG is likely to get there, as is Lingard and Rashford has every chance to get there too. Signing 29 years olds doesn’t mean we aren’t going to be looking at the next big thing.
It shows that position and roster matter. Signing a 32 year old Godin would be great for example, as it would let Bailly and Lindelof compete to start next to him for a couple years then hopefully they can form a partnership when he leaves (with some experience having done so when Godin is hurt, suspended or rested) or becomes a backup or we'll just have to sign a replacement in 2 seasons. And we could pay for a good chunk of his fee by selling off Smalling or Jones.Our CB ages when next season starts.
Lindelof 24
Bailly 24
Rojo 28
Jones 26
Smalling 28
I supposed if we sign Alderweireld if means one of the above will be sold. Even if its Lindelof that's move on it's not as if our CB will be ancient.
Lukaku, Pogba and Bailly is a spine.Its not a matter of comparing between the two - its more so to illustrate that the core of our success has been built around players who have stayed with us for many years. We need to get back to building the spine of the club around a new group.
Uh no. We struggled after SAF is due to mismanagement of the next managers, not due to SAF's. Those same ageing players won us the league and challenge year in year out under SAF. It's not couple of them but almost key positions. And we're not alone. Age is just numbers, players peak at different time. Management is to arrange so there is the right balance when players hitting their good years and make a team to challenge.Having a couple of players in their very late 20s / early 30s is fine. Having a lot is one of the reasons we struggled poat fergie.
Rather than a team naturally changing each year, you get to a ppint where 5 or 6 important players need to be replaced at once and its a mess.
I also believe that in general, it takes time for a team to gel and achieve greatness. A team with several older players doesn't have that time.
I'm not talking about alderweireld specifically but talk of willian as well is concerning.