I'd hazard a guess that a lot of those people are looking at it with a European perspective. If you drop the Dems into, say, Norway then they would be comfortably on the Right. Obviously not in US context.
2024 U.S. Elections
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Yes, that's what I'm saying. So I'm curious about @maniak's point. I should have quoted him.
Domestically he's been fine. On that arena Its absurd to draw an equivalence between him and a complete trainwreck like Trump. On the international front its a far more fuzzled outlook, particularly with Biden's support for the current Israeli bloodbath. The trouble is to those of us on the outside world, its his international policy which is where our lens is mostly fixed.
Europe, except a few countries like i guess Norway, really isn't all that left, especially with the right-wing shift the last decade that many countries has taken.
Many dems would be center-left in Europe, i'd say.
Biden is worse because he's making some leftists and liberals simply accept some horrible practices as inevitable because the evil republican is worse. With previous candidates there was some dissent and a little hope a better democrat could come next. Now it's the opposite, we know they'll keep getting worse, as long as they're not as bad as the progressively worse republicans.
This is my view from a far away country, anyway.
This is my view from a far away country, anyway.
"The lesser of two evil"-argument has been there for a long time, it didn't start or end with Biden.
What exactly has Biden done that makes him worse than those before him, and why will dems "keep getting worse"?
Biden is not perfect, and does not do everything I want. Oh well, might as well give up on democracy entirely.
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The Dems would be considered right wing in the UK. I think a lot of them are incredibly similar to the Tories. Our current Labour party isn't left at all, the leader certainly isn't, centrist maybe but not left wing. That's the issues we are facing here, the true Labour voters wants a more left party and leader and the rest just want to get elected so go with the more pleasing Tony Blair esq candidates who are left-centre at best. Sadly, as with the US the media have far too much control over public.opinion as we saw with Brexit and past election results.
The similarities go further still as traditionally the UK is conservative, especially the south, with the north more working class and labour. It's just the US dem and republican populations are the opposite with the Republicans mainly making up the more working class industrial or southern/mid areas and the Dems taking hold more in places like New York and California. Again the media having way too much control and influence over elections, especially with the spreading of misinformation.
As someone who lived in NY when I was much younger, I always take a keen interest in what is going on in the US.
I was there when Kennedy was campaigning to become president after Nixon. And for what it is worth, I was a big fan of Obama. Intellectually extremely bright and a top communicator.
I dislike Trump for pretty obvious reasons and very much hope he doesn't get back in.
And from my perspective, think that Biden has done quite a reasonable job under very difficult circumstances. So I will be very interested in the elections about this time next year.
Agree with some of this. Although from my perspective don't see the Dems as quite as right wing as you seem to. But that is just my opinion and don't doubt you will have good reasons for saying that.
On policy, he's been one of the more liberal Presidents in recent history.
I think everyone agrees Trump changed the status quo and made absolute lunatics electable everywhere. America has always had a few crazies but now they're the mainstream. This seems to be making "centrist" (which as we all know means right wing) democrats more appealing because some leftists and liberals want to attract the so called independents. As time goes by it will become easier for these liberals to swallow that bitter pill. So the zeitgeist keeps changing to the right.
I remember almost daily reports about how fecked up was the treatment of migrants in the boarder. Now basically the same things are happening but people who were outraged with Trump just say "well, would you rather have Trump?" and that's the end of it. Trump would've been crucified if he had handled the Gaza genocide the way Biden had, but now we have liberals finding all kinds of excuses, "Biden is doing the best he can in a terrible situation", we've seen it in this forum. And horrible things become a little more palatable because the other guy... oh boy he would be really really bad.
So yeah, the lesser of two evil argument is an old one, but it used to be very abstract and debatable, now we literally have an evil side and it seems the other side's answer to it is adjusting to that evil little by little.
So basically, his domestic policies have been good, and progressive, but we're really pissed about Gaza and therefore Trump=Biden.
The immigration issue is far more difficult. The opinion on immigration amongst liberals has tangibly changed over the past half-decade, I see it everywhere, most notably in the big cities. (https://news.gallup.com/poll/1660/immigration.aspx) Even among Democrats there is real, popular support for curbing immigration. And so Biden has to respond to that - it's his job.
The immigration issue is far more difficult. The opinion on immigration amongst liberals has tangibly changed over the past half-decade, I see it everywhere, most notably in the big cities. (https://news.gallup.com/poll/1660/immigration.aspx) Even among Democrats there is real, popular support for curbing immigration. And so Biden has to respond to that - it's his job.
The Israel backlash is more a recency bias. Ultimately, people usually vote on things that actually affect their lives; specifically whether Biden's economy is conducive to a better quality of life for them and their family (ie., its still the economy stupid). If Israel policy in any way reduces turnout for Dems, that will be more than compensated for by women pissed off over Roe v Wade being overturned, which is backed up by unexpectedly higher turnout during the mid-terms, a significant swath of which was abortion related.
This next election cycle is going to be one of the most bizarre in history imo. There are more third party candidates than usual who can sway the final result, not to mention Trump's legal cases, further Russian interference, and Biden's age problem.
That's exactly what I said.
In no way Ds would be center left in europe. As much as you are right that there is a raise on the far right in Europe, their rethoric is contained (for now) on the democratic game, not as such the Rs that are not only far right but lunatics, among them Qanon followers and with the expresident and probably R nominee trying to destroy the democratic system and menacing to do it the next round
We are talking about a party (Rs) that are more on the right parties than the extreme right that has any meaningful representation in Europe.
The Ds have some immigrant policies that would make blush the conservative right in europe. Not to talk despite the few voices that request free public education and health care, the majority of democrats still prefer the current system. the right in europe in some countries would not enter in that debate and in some countries are frankly a minority
David fecking Clarke is the best they can do?!?
So his job is to just obey popular sentiment on every issue? Including ones that divide his party? Like not vetoing a ceasefire?
Why do we pretend that it's all mathematics when there's actual politics and ideology involved here - i.e. Biden has been to the right of Reagan and HW Bush on Israel, and therefore can defy ~60-80% of his base over ceasefire calls, while he has no compunctions about literally following Trump's immigration policies, and therefore can defy ~60-80% of his base over it.
You just need to count the amount of discussion on this exact forum that end with "well, would you rather have trump in charge?" without the topic even being discussed to see the shift happening. Laughing all the way to the abyss, as a poet once wrote..
Again,
Which pollsters have the best track record?
I guess you got me.Again,
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Nah, I just happen to disagree with your takes.
You don't feel Biden is treated differently when it comes to immigration and foreign policy? I watch cnn almost every day and I remember a constant bombardment about how cruel trump was, and now biden doing similar stuff barely registers. We get a tweet here and there and that's it.
dems are to the left of european parties on the right (and many on the left) on trans issues and, under trump, used to be on migrant issues too. fortress europe - intercepting boats, detaining in libya/turkey ,are pretty analogous to trump policies.
It's good to see things have moved that much, as public opinion should given Israel's actions. The trend can also be seen in these polls (https://apnews.com/article/israel-p...en-democrats-42b195c5a577a40ff981d26afbff9997) where support of his actions fell from 57% among dems to 50% through November.
Of course I don't believe Presidents should just follow popular opinion. But things have changed and quickly. Hopefully the Biden camp are able to exert enough influence to change Netanyahu's actions. Personally I don't think they will be able to, because Netanyahu's very survival is at stake. I still don't understand the mechanism by which the US is supposed to stop him.
That said, I do hope the US change their vote on the ceasefire in the security council, not that the UN can do much.
Though is certain that there are many similarities and both face similar escenarios (mass immigration, fear mongering on identity, job competition, etc) there are a few things at least on arrivals at the border that seems to me more harrowing like the separation of families for example. Also, Europe accepted a huge influx of refugees from ISIS, and by europe I mean a handful of countries, not all. Like Germany and nordic countries
At the same time I heard horrific stories on operation sophia in lybia bordering slavery financed indirectly by the EU
Biden has only discussed agreeing to some proposed changes to the immigration system recently, nothing has come out of Congress yet for him to sign. Yes, the changes involve placating some Republican fears / issues about the border & thus will make Biden move to his right, but politically he will have to now or eventually, he will have to thread the needle. I am not a fan of what is being proposed out of the Senate, but am resigned to the fact that the Senate Repubs will get some of what they want regarding immigration reform. This is the cold political calculus of the current stalemate. And it will be difficult to stomach. Hopefully the changes will be more cosmetic than not.
Re: foreign policy, Biden has overseen the Afghanistan pullout that was poorly executed & he received harsh criticism for that & rightfully so. He has also overseen some successes like spearheading combatting the Russian advance into Ukraine, strengthening the Indo Pacific region against China. Then there's the Gaza issue. That is emotionally charged as it should be. Biden's acquiescence to Israel's terror campaign in Gaza is disappointing & should be criticized; there has been some nominal pushback by the admin towards Israel's methods of war, but no line in the sand drawn. The lack of criticism here is due in large part to the pro-Israel stance which has pervaded the overall media conglomerate we have here, the critical pushback is unfortunately far more muted but Biden does deserve it.
This being said, imo it doesn't approach the level of chaos, both seen in the past & in the future, of another Trump administration.
I said many dems, cause its a very big party, after all.
Also depend on the country, wouldn't you say, as an example, that dems are largely to the left of the current government in Italy?
Not on every position, of course, as dems still favors a private healthcare system, as an example, which is certainly not a left-wing position.
As for immigration policy, i'm probably just bad at reading, you mean that as in dems are to the right of European conservatives on immigration?
I don't know how harsh some of these policies are, but i do know that there are left-wing countries here in Europe, such as Denmark and Norway, that have quite strict policies on the books, actually.
Why do people like burying their head in the sand?
The deal is that, to get the Republicans to spend on Ukraine, coupled with more money for Israel, he will destroy the asylum system in a way Trump only could do during covid. This has been the consensus of all reporting about the plan, For example:
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And it isn't some distant proposition, the best hope against it is hardline Republican holdouts against Ukraine or wanting more on the border (likely) combined with near-total Dem unity against their own president (unlikely).
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So the deal is to pass a long-term massive inhumane Republican priority which fueled Trump's rise, coupled with a bipartisan genocidal priority increasingly unpopular with his own base, along with a Democrat priority mostly popular with his base. From a moral perspective, a short-term crime and long-term capitulation. From an electoral perspective, 2Ls for 1W.
For perspective on the man and his instincts, the last time Biden had to personally negotiate a fraught package with a Republican majority, he and his ex-boss agreed to permanent cuts to social security by changing the way inflation is calculated for benefits. This only failed because Republicans could not stomach that this grand bargain was coupled with undoing some tax cuts.
So, in negotiations with Republicans, he has a history of letting them score really politically massive wins with what many of his base consider political or moral negatives.
Which is what makes the current "compromise" that he is suggesting plausible.
Yes. Until someone like Newsom runs. Would you prefer a government that would force a 14 year old rape victim to carry a fetus to term? Or more tax cuts for the wealthy? Or religion in our schools with national book bans? Or locking up people for their political beliefs? Or stripping of regulations that protect our environment? Or shooting 8 year Olds in the face with weapons of war? Etc. Et fecking cetra.
You seem optimistic that a deal with immigration and Ukraine aid will pass, how come? I think republicans are doing this to avoid the Ukraine topic, they simply don't want to give them anymore aid imo.
The house has other priorities anyway, if you can call them that, impeachment trial will be their focus for the coming months.
Why are people pretending like the GOP is a fecking regular political party and a reasonable alternative when the voter gets their knickers in a twist. They are not. They are fecking scumbags.
Wouldn't call it 'optimistic,' more 'resigned' to a deal that basically reinstitutes a Title 42-esque program for UKR & Israeli aid. Hopefully it wouldn't be as negatively impactful.
Yes, I would prefer all those things
One think is being strict as being law stringent. The other is straight criminal how they treat immigrants and families at the border
Roll your emoji eyes all you want. This is the alternative. Will you vote in the 24 election for Trump?Yes, I would prefer all those things