Trump would be much worse. There is no doubt about that at all.
2024 U.S. Elections
- Thread starter Raoul
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Biden didn't start the Hamas attack on Israel either, nor would Trump have done anything to stop the Israeli response, in fact he would've encouraged them to be far more brutal. The argument that Biden and Trump are two of the same is also absurd and usually made by people on the political fringes who are so far out of the mainstream that they need binoculars to conclude liberals, conservatives, and fake populists are all one in the same. There are obviously plenty of policy issues where Biden is vastly different than Trump, which are listed on their respected policy, platform pages.
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What does this functionally mean? What has the USA not allowing north Korea to keep it's nukes done for it's nuclear programme so far?
Erm. What? Great to hear you've recovered so well from that four year coma, but man the rest of us had to live through it.
This will be the first time that NK is recognized as a nuclear power & that any efforts made will only be on limiting new weapons. It would be a significant shift in foreign policy & destabilizing to NK's regional foes.
Talk about deluded, what makes him think he has any say in it?
Will he "allow" Russia to keep theirs, or the UK, China, France, India, Pakistan or Israel?
Out of interest, short of dropping nukes or a rapid Rwanda style genocide, how much more brutal do you think this war could have been so far?
Conservatively at least 1% of the population has been killed, in around 2 months. Almost all of the hospitals are out of action, either through bombing (remember the heady days when we spent days debating whether Israel would attack a hospital or not) or cleaning them out. The majority of the housing stock is gone. Places of worship, schools, universities. Gone. Almost the entire population is displaced. Bombed even in places where it is apparently 'safe'. One of the highest kill rates of journalists in any modern conflict. The humanitarian catastrophe is yet to fully unfold and I imagine we will find out more and more war crimes as time goes on.
So how much more brutal can it really get, beyond the examples I gave above?
It would be a shift, until the next president comes in and reverses it.
It would also have no actual impact, as whether the USA recognises the nukes or not in those 4 years, NK is not going to give up those nukes and the USA won't stop sanctioning them.
It would be an unprecedented shift.
Sanctions might be lifted under Trump. That would be its own signal to both NK’s regional foes & countries with upstart nuclear programs.
It would be an overly permissive move which would be difficult to rectify after four years.
Trump could've easily told Netanyahu he wouldn't push back if they deliberately targeted civilian populations to get to Hamas, as opposed to the current situation where they are going after Hamas and not taking adequate precautions to avoid civilians (incidental vs intentional). Trump could've also told him to he wouldn't push back if the Israelis decided to keep Gaza and send its inhabitants to other countries. He could've also told Netanyahu he wouldn't push back if they doubled down on more WB settlements. He could've leaned hard on regional Arab governments to take in Palestinians etc. In the current construct, the only thing preventing Netanyahu from being fully unleashed to bomb Hezbollah and Iranian factions in Syria, is the threat of Biden criticizing Israel, which as Israel's primary superpower ally, would completely undermine the Israeli campaign against Hamas both internationally and from within.
I think we're going to have a very significant disagreement about Israel delibrately targeting civilian populations and think probably nothing short of a genuine nuke would convince you otherwise.
We don't know yet what Netanyahu is going to do after the war and the USA will likely suck up whatever they ultimately decide. The USA 'push back on' settlements now (lol) and Israel builds ever more settlements regardless. He could have leaned hard on regional Arab governments to take in Palestinians and they would all have told him to piss off regardless because whatever the leaders actually think about the Palestinians, they can't be seen as contributing to another round of ethnic cleansing.
Not sure if you genuinely believe that last comment to be honest.
It would be an unprecedented shift, with no practical differences as to the actual status of the nukes.
Biden or Newsom or Obama have their policies. They keep the nukes. Trump 'allows' the nukes. They keep the nukes. Either way, they're keeping the nukes.
You asked about Trump and I gave you a list of things he would've probably done that Biden hasn't. If you think what is happening in Gaza is extreme now, then you can safely double that if Trump were the President, as the only thing in the world that can affect Israeli behavior is the threat of POTUS criticizing them, which would be a permission signal to start a cascading effect of further criticism from other democracies who have been on the fence as of now.
Problem is that you can't double the 60% of the destroyed housing stock (back by the end of the ceasefire). You can't double the 80%+ (again old data now) of displaced Palestinians in Gaza.
You can of course double the (confirmed) death toll or triple quadruple it etc. But its why I'm asking you how much more extreme the response in Gaza could have been so far, short of the examples I gave above? Especially considering we aren't yet at the end and unlike you, I think permanent displacement is a very very real possibility here.
OMG. FFS. That's all this comment deserves.
I see the drive by slappers have returned to the thread.
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At least dems don't have to worry about the senate race in Wisconsin then.
It’s looking increasingly likely that Trump wins, isn’t it?
Good. Maybe the next time the dems won’t have a genocide enabler as a candidate - one wouldv hoped that Bernie activating new vote bases would have been galvanised the desire to have an equally principled and non imperialist candidate again but nope - dems sticking to the old guard . And yes I hold them to different standards because I have no faith in the republicans ever having a decent candidate
It’s a catch 22 really. Damned either way.
Yep. Taken the pass on the next four years - hoping it’s the kick they need to actually taking up the role of ‘greatest country in the world’ schtick
Whenever i read this type of stuff, it always reminds me why "First they came for the socialists" rings so true. This type of shit is exactly how fascists get in. I hope your standards remain this high for democrats when Trump arrests congressional members for payback and calls for violence against "the cultural marxists"...but hey, you enjoy your moral victory.
i'm all for the ideological battle in the primaries, by god I wanted Sanders to be nominated more than anything. But he lost. The progressive movement is not reaching critical mass yet. And if my choice was a tolerable democrat on most issues against a fascist that would probably park ships off the coast of Israel and actively shell Gaza if Elon tweeted about it, I guess I know which side I'd fall on.
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In the end, if you genuinely can't see the difference between the Biden administration and the Trump one, I don't really believe you know enough about the two to voice your opinion. As I said to someone earlier in this thread - if literally the only issue on Earth you care about is the Gaza situation and you dislike that somehow Biden hasn't forced Israel to get rid of its elected leader and hold new elections - even on that one issue Trump would be easily, and demonstrably worse. He has a history of appointing random friends as ambassadors, rather than serious diplomats. He has the reading comprehension of a 10 year old, and the attention span of a 5 year old. He set his son-in-law to solve the crisis last time he was in office. Rather Blinken, you'd have someone like Keri Lake over there discussing sensitive topics.
And that's before we get onto small points, like Trump literally committed treason, doesn't believe in peaceful transfer of power between elections and has promised to be a dictator 'for a day' to 'go after' his political enemies. None of that is subtext, he is literally saying all of these things, openly, daily. He is an unhinged sociopath with a grievance list a mile long. And THAT's before you get to the absolute insane plan that he'll be pushed towards installing political appointees across the entirety of the US government to essentially grind it to a halt.
Anyone who says that restoring that to power is just as bad as Biden because Joe's a bit old to me doesn't deserve to have a say. It's like they think it's cool to be all nihilistic, and I have to desperately hope they're still young, idealist, naive people.
A second Trump term could literally end democracy in the US, and move towards a christo-facist state where the minority are able to use the courts to impose unpopular laws to the populace. It's that big a deal.
I'm sorry that Biden lacks the ability, power or will to end the Gazan conflict. So does every other world leader since 1948. If that's your bar for support, I'd like to extend a hand and welcome you to the real world.
And that's before we get onto small points, like Trump literally committed treason, doesn't believe in peaceful transfer of power between elections and has promised to be a dictator 'for a day' to 'go after' his political enemies. None of that is subtext, he is literally saying all of these things, openly, daily. He is an unhinged sociopath with a grievance list a mile long. And THAT's before you get to the absolute insane plan that he'll be pushed towards installing political appointees across the entirety of the US government to essentially grind it to a halt.
Anyone who says that restoring that to power is just as bad as Biden because Joe's a bit old to me doesn't deserve to have a say. It's like they think it's cool to be all nihilistic, and I have to desperately hope they're still young, idealist, naive people.
A second Trump term could literally end democracy in the US, and move towards a christo-facist state where the minority are able to use the courts to impose unpopular laws to the populace. It's that big a deal.
I'm sorry that Biden lacks the ability, power or will to end the Gazan conflict. So does every other world leader since 1948. If that's your bar for support, I'd like to extend a hand and welcome you to the real world.
Average democrat - Donald Trump will bring Fascism to America!
Also average democrat - Hey buddy! We’ve got to drop white phosphorus on these orphans. It’s called real world politics. Insert sad emoji face here.
Putting forward a anti fascist/united front argument while also arguing to fund Israel is truly fitting of the dumbest empire in human history.
Also average democrat - Hey buddy! We’ve got to drop white phosphorus on these orphans. It’s called real world politics. Insert sad emoji face here.
Putting forward a anti fascist/united front argument while also arguing to fund Israel is truly fitting of the dumbest empire in human history.
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Again, if that's how nihilistic you want to go, great, enjoy yourself, don't vote. If you honestly believe average US democrats support white phosphorous gas being used on orphans, bully for you. I really wish I could reduce my thinking on geopolitics to something that would fit on a bumper sticker.
Tbf your voting for the guy who’s doing it.
This!
I'm so tired of people like that. Just back the best available option, and don't be a fecking idiot.
and you can criticise or even want to change said policy without wanting the fascist to win right? I'd hope to change the mind of the democrat instead of enjoying the fascist beat them. Seems like no-brainer?
Yep, Joe Biden is out there, commanding US military to seek out orphaned children and telling them use the white phosphorus boys! Make it rain the pain!
Imo this gets used so much in Western politics it has become meaningless. It has nothing to with say the politics or economy of Nazi Germany or Mussolini Italy.
The things that get Trump called fascist by liberals are things Biden has done or is doing(Biden has pretty much the same immigration policy and has gone over congress to supply weapons to what is maybe the closest thing to a fascist state). Tbh the liberal use of the word fascism very similar to how conservatives used the word communism.
The differences between the two parties is small. The Republicans are reactionaries and the Democrats are conservatives. These grand narratives about saving democracy or outrage at people not voting is cope.
You do realise that Trump and the GOP tried to actually overturn a legit election right? Pretty big difference for me. And that's even before we're starting to talk about abortion.
Sounds bad. Hopefully the pro-Israel coalition can muster up the votes to saves democracy. They've still got a year.
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Sorry but no - if your vote can be counted on no matter what just to keep the other side out is the bar we are setting, that’s pathetically low for your leader.
It’s amazing how many principles the dem party forgoes and gets cowed into electing ‘safe politicians’ that won’t ever back them or push for them aggressively because oh the ‘other side might win’
Fine, let Trump and GOP eradicate the last remnants of US democracy then.
So the pattern seems to be voting for progressively worse democrats to avoid the progressively insane republicans, is that it?
This narrative that the current Dem party is trending right is just bonkers. It’s almost like the actual legislation passed during the first two years never happened.
Is Biden significantly worse than Clinton and Obama? Apart from old age?
From the Obama, to Hillary(though not president), to Biden, what makes Biden "progressively worse" than the previous candidates, exactly?
In terms of policy, Biden has been surprisingly good, no?