It's not the system it's the players in the system. But we need another system to maximise pogba. That's for the future. We need new midfielders for that.
4-2-3-1 needs to die
- Thread starter Rajma
- Start date
Pogba's full potential is not realized in a 4-2-3-1, and the guy is a world class player aged 24. A 4-3-3 would suit him a lot better, but seeing our lack of personnel at the mid, a 4-1-2-1-2 would be a much better option.
DDG
Tony V--CB--Jones--Shaw
Matic
Herrera/Mctominay--Pogba
Sanchez/Lingaard/Mata
Lukaku/Sanchez--Martial/Rashford/Sanchez
This formation is what Jose used at Inter to win the treble and beat the Barca team under Pep. He can use this formation with Shaw and Tony V providing the width and United would be back to two up top leading the attack like we used to.
DDG
Tony V--CB--Jones--Shaw
Matic
Herrera/Mctominay--Pogba
Sanchez/Lingaard/Mata
Lukaku/Sanchez--Martial/Rashford/Sanchez
This formation is what Jose used at Inter to win the treble and beat the Barca team under Pep. He can use this formation with Shaw and Tony V providing the width and United would be back to two up top leading the attack like we used to.
That could be done with 4-3-3 aswell..
Pogba blows hot and cold also in the 433...
We buy a player for a world record fee and we do - on top af that - have to change most of our personel and only play one or two specific formations in order to "maximise Pogba" ... hmmmm ... something just does not add up here.
I thought the system showed some of it's strength and weaknesses today. Huddersfield couldnt really get out of their own half with McTominay sitting square with Matic to help the midfield, and on the flip side he wasnt really able to offer much going forward other then just to keep the game ticking. Without any penetration from the midfield and the mostly stagnant movement of the forwards it's hard to have an impact with a team sitting 8 or 9 guys around the box. Someone like McTominay or Herrera is going to be much more disciplined playing alongside Matic.
The part that doesn't add up is the, I won't say horrible, but not really good midfield signings by Moyes and LVG. Fellaini, Schewni, Schnerderlin, (I'd put Blind here, but I think he was actually signed to play LB eventhough his best position is DM), etc. We haven't been able to sign a b2b type to compliment Matic and Pogba. Herrera has been one of the better midfield signings but has gone off a cliff this year and doesn't look like to be a regular in the starting XI moving forward.
Jose added Pogba and then Matic and just needs one more window to get the last piece of a solid 3 man midfield.
Don't really care about maximising Pogba as much I do the problems the 4231 causes.
Having Pogba as one of the 2 midfielders puts our defense at the mercy of his awful defensive instincts/workrate and having Lukaku as the 1 forward also puts our attack at the mercy of his mediocre holdup/link up.
Ironic that Jose signed these 2 specifically to fit in his system and they end up the biggest reasons to change it. It shouldn't be that big a problem because we still have the tools to be even better in a 433 but the manager won't do so
Having Pogba as one of the 2 midfielders puts our defense at the mercy of his awful defensive instincts/workrate and having Lukaku as the 1 forward also puts our attack at the mercy of his mediocre holdup/link up.
Ironic that Jose signed these 2 specifically to fit in his system and they end up the biggest reasons to change it. It shouldn't be that big a problem because we still have the tools to be even better in a 433 but the manager won't do so
You have to wonder why Mourinho generally insists on 4231.
You could also say "we buy a player for a world record fee, but choose not to play him in the position/role that made him worth a world record fee".
Playing 4-2-3-1 is fine at home against the weaker sides, even with Pogba and Matic as the central pairing. I get that we want to be more attacking that way.
However, if its against the tougher teams or away from home, its better if Pogba plays the no. 10 role and have Herrera (or Fellaini/Mctominay) partner Matic.
However, if its against the tougher teams or away from home, its better if Pogba plays the no. 10 role and have Herrera (or Fellaini/Mctominay) partner Matic.
Yes, I could easily have said that also, but it is the other thing that really strikes me. Big/great players move around from one club to another - and one country to another - and very good players do cope and adapt to that. Look at our own Alexis, we can discuss if he prefers the left wing or not, but it is obvious to everyone that he can play anywhere in our attack to great effect. Why should something similar not be expected from Pogba in midfield if he is such a great player.
I’m strongly against this theory. 4231 isn’t a more offensive formation by default. If Pep dropped Silva or Kevin against the bottom 14 teams and played an extra striker, City would actually be a worse team.
Control and creativity is very important. In a 4231, none of our front 4 are creators, they are all forwards. Better to play with 3, and actually have them getting the ball, than to play with 4, and have Matic and Herrera unable to feed them (but provide defensive stability), or have Matic and Pogba unable to feed them as they are struggling to cope with what’s coming at them.
Pay the best surgeon in the World £60m to shave 10 years off of Carrick.
Carrick and Matic in CM, Pogba AM, Martial/Rashford RW, Sanchez LW, Lukaku ST
Carrick and Matic in CM, Pogba AM, Martial/Rashford RW, Sanchez LW, Lukaku ST
I just don't get why we'd pay £89m for Pogba and not play him in the position that gets the best out of him?
France paid for this at Euro 2016 by shackling him in a 4-2-3-1 and he really wasn't very good. We've been shackling him for two years in it and he could be doing so much more.
France paid for this at Euro 2016 by shackling him in a 4-2-3-1 and he really wasn't very good. We've been shackling him for two years in it and he could be doing so much more.
Quite liked the setup we ended the game on today. Bring in Lingard for Rashford and depending on the form the defenders, the team we finished the game with is the one that should be used in the big games. Can't see Mou going with it though
It appears that Mourinho was trying to transform Pogba into a DMF, which he never is. Likewise you can't blame Lukaku on failing to man-mark most dangerous opponent because this is not his trade. While Pogba can learn and progress over time, you have to ask how long this will take, or he will ever get there. Remember his trademark is never about discipline.
Conte has a simple philosophy, play 2 DMF at the expense of Fabregas, or even play 3 DMF at the expense of Fabregas and another striker. Hope we won't come to that, so obviously 433 is a simple short term solution in big game, and 4231 against weaker opponent.
In actual practice that's 4-3-3, though.
This. It's crazy.
Except from my point of view, at this point, I care only about what's best for the team, rather than for Pogba's performances - which, even when on strong form turn to nothing again against decent opposition.
I love watching him play when on form, but his performances in big games have left me with less and less faith that he's ever gonna be a player to turn up when it matters most / captain material etc.
I'd just like to a see a 3 man mid every game because it's best for the team. Whether that mid contains Pogba or not should depend upon his form, and the form of the other players fighting for that place.
It's obvious that Pogba thrives when he is given more freedom and we can't do that if he only has Matic beside him.
If we could get a positionally disciplined playmaker in the summer, and switch to a fluid front three of Martial, Lukaku and Sanchez, we'd be a much better team.
Especially since our forwards would also have more freedom.
If we could get a positionally disciplined playmaker in the summer, and switch to a fluid front three of Martial, Lukaku and Sanchez, we'd be a much better team.
Especially since our forwards would also have more freedom.
Nonsense
France reached the final despite his average performances and lost to the final because Gignac's cluelessness and Eder's black magic. It's amazing the length people can go to alter realityThats 4231 aka 433. I would say it's our strongest team and formation. I don't like your defence though, Jones and Rojo have proven to be a solid and capable defensive partnership and probably Shaw too for Young.
I don't know I guess I just don't play enough Fifa or FM because for me all the debate surrounds wheater you call one holding with 2 attacking or two holding midfielders and one attacking anything else but a 3 man midfield. Or the wheater you play two number tens and one nine or one ten and two nines. It's a 433 just a difference of construction and always will be.
There has never been a team that played with three number 6s and three number 9s. But somehow because Fifa or FM need to show a difference in formation so they can quantify in simple numbers how you want a player to play, we have lost track of what actual formation we play and confused it with the structure of it. Even 442 is not just 2 banks of 4 and 2 number 9s. We as United fans know this more than most thanks to SAF.
This thread is just named wrong IMO. I think it is more of, "can we stop playing Pogba in a midfield 2, now!" thread. Pogba cannot play in a midfield 2. As of yet, he does not know how to play it! BTW I agree with a lot of the debate thus far. I just see the same(IMO) incorrect argument over and over.
We will never understand them, most people don't realize that the goal was a semi final and it was an optimistic one.Nonsense
Mourinho has got to play a 3 in midfield for Champions League. I think we need to play it all the time. Better results with Pogba roaming behind the front 3.
The formations discussed above are generally interchangeable during games so there is no one perfect formation to suit every game. Perhaps our main issue is that we don’t understand how to overcome the oppositions tactics very easily. We tend to stick to our approach from the off no matter what which becomes tedious and ineffective as the game goes on.
It needs to die because we definitely won't see the best of Pogba in this formation...If we play Pogba on the left of a midfield 3,then he will set the league on fire,he"ll comfortably be our best player.So I"m not sure why Jose is still sticking to a midfield 2,maybe he just doesn't fancy the other midfielders at the club.If we sign 2 quality midfielders in the summer,I think we"ll definitely shift to a 4-3-3 next season....
Credit to you if you’re able to spot our approach, since if I’m honest I can’t define exactly what is our plan A.
I liked the way we set up yesterday.
In Mata, Lingard and Sanchez, we had a three behind Lukaku, who were all comfortable interchanging with each other (Mata made assist from left) and popping up in between the lines.
We then had Valencia and Shaw providing the width, with Matic and McTominay staying back and snuffing out potential counters.
Average positions below
Vs Huddersfield
United (left) Huddersfield (right)
Vs Tottenham
Spurs (left) United (right)
From looking at the images above, you can see the significant difference between the positioning of McTominay and Pogba next to Matic in the two games.
Now, if you look at Dembele (19) and Dier, (15) they are more or less side to side, despite being at home. The both held and let their front four attack, along with their full backs Davies (33) and Trippier (2) who kept the width.
If you look at way Pogba (6) and Matic (31) are positioned, on the other hand, they are far from side by side, and it shown in the game because Matic had way too much to do, whereas Dembele and Dier worked in tandem with each other.
Yesterday, against Huddersfield, despite us dominating and being at home against at team newly promoted side, you can see that McTominay (39) and Matic (31) were more side to side than Matic and Pogba were against Spurs away. To me, that doesn't make sense, and I guess Pogba was dropped yesterday because he didn't show the discipline needed.
Question is, can Pogba play learn to play a more disciplined role? Maybe he will need to as it looks likely Jose will continue to play a 4231.
To me, Pogba has got a fantastic passing range, and could easily be moulded into a Pirlo, Carrick, Alonso type of player, but would need to be partnered with a ball winner.
We just don't have the players for it. To play that formation you need 2 CDMs who have the legs like Kante, Ndidi, Matuidi, Naingollan, Gueye, Allan, Fabinho, Vidal, Goretzka, I can keep going but you see what I mean.
To play that formation with Pogba and Matic is what someone playing computer games will do because it looks good on paper. It's obvious Pogba does not have the competence to play that role and as good as Matic is at reading the game, he was never quick so that leaves us exposed against quick attackers.
We need to get Fabinho.
To play that formation with Pogba and Matic is what someone playing computer games will do because it looks good on paper. It's obvious Pogba does not have the competence to play that role and as good as Matic is at reading the game, he was never quick so that leaves us exposed against quick attackers.
We need to get Fabinho.
The thinking behind Pogba and Matic I guess, is Jose trying to re-enact the double pivot of Matic and Fabregas, who won the league for him.
Fabregas, like Pogba, isn't known for his industrious play. The both are better with the ball and always look to create. A ball winner, partnered with a roaming playmaker.
To me, a 4231 shouldn't be played like that, though, especially if your front four are given free roles to interchange.
As you said, a double pivot should be two players who are dynamic and able to read the game, whilst allowing the front four to cause chaos.
The second season, Jose got found out, and teams found it very easy to counter Chelsea.
Going forward, if we are to play a 4231, we need a holding player (Matic, Carrick) with a ball winner (Herrera, Fellaini).
Jose did this at Madrid, with Alonso/Khedira. Occasionally at Chelsea too, with Matic/Ramires when he wanted to tighten things up.
We'll need several failed CL campaigns for Jose to have any desire to switch up his age tested go-to tactics. Only then will it become apparent how futile it is trying to turn Pogba into Xabi Alonso and Lukaku into Drogba
It's the manner in which we go about our football rather than the formation itself.
4231 works, but it needs an aggressive approach, which is something we we're not, so the gaps on the pitch can be to large.
Push our defensive line high, and when we lose the ball, stand firm as much as we can. It pins the opposition back and means we can close down and not have to over work at the same time.
The problem arise because we do the exact opposite. When we lose the ball, we retreat as a team. We don't want to win the ball back at all, we want the opposition to make a mistake. Jose's game plan is to get 9 men behind the ball and wait for a misplaced pass. I think our very good defensive record is due to the lack of quality from most teams to get through this, but then the better teams seem to do it no problem.
Jose's tactic is to basically thwart the opposition in a very defensive manner and then hope for a piece of brilliance to win us the games.
Even though we have scored a lot of goals this season, I don't think theres been many times when I've watched a display and thought, wow.
With the attacking players we have, we should be enjoying our matches a lot more than we are.
Formation's don't really change this
4231 works, but it needs an aggressive approach, which is something we we're not, so the gaps on the pitch can be to large.
Push our defensive line high, and when we lose the ball, stand firm as much as we can. It pins the opposition back and means we can close down and not have to over work at the same time.
The problem arise because we do the exact opposite. When we lose the ball, we retreat as a team. We don't want to win the ball back at all, we want the opposition to make a mistake. Jose's game plan is to get 9 men behind the ball and wait for a misplaced pass. I think our very good defensive record is due to the lack of quality from most teams to get through this, but then the better teams seem to do it no problem.
Jose's tactic is to basically thwart the opposition in a very defensive manner and then hope for a piece of brilliance to win us the games.
Even though we have scored a lot of goals this season, I don't think theres been many times when I've watched a display and thought, wow.
With the attacking players we have, we should be enjoying our matches a lot more than we are.
Formation's don't really change this
Fair to say we’re not nearly proactive enough, something you expect from the huge club like ours.
Someone telling it exactly how it is. 100% spot on mate.
The Mourinho sympathisers won’t have this though my friend. The entire team is shit remember, nothing to do with the managers tactics or match setup...
The Sánchez factor just turned this more complicated, because if Mourinho wants him to play on the left of attack, he always drifts centrally, ending up in the same position Pogba would play in 4-3-3, that is, leftcenter. Just check how advanced is Pogba in the above game (n. 6, blue) when on the right of a midfield two.Vs Tottenham
Spurs (left) United (right)
Mine and everybody's wish earlier was Pogba would feature on the leftcenter of a midfield three, freeing him up for the attack, and Sánchez would go to the rightwing, displacing Mata and allowing Martial to be kept on the extreme-left.
Not sure. One of Pogba's best games came against Everton, when Lingard played on the left and constantly came inside. That game, it seemed to work really well. Constant interchaning and fluid movement. Everton couldnt live with us, and everything went through Pogba.
Unfortunately, Lingard, Rashford, Martial and Sanchez are all better down the left.
It looks like Jose is going to persist with a 4231, which means Pogba needs to learn either how to play in double pivot or as a 10.
Yeah, but in attack it was such a weird game, with Martial as striker and Mourinho clearly instructing them to do short passing progression, not sure we can read that much into it. Besides, Lingard is not there up with Pogba and Sánchez in value, is he? (Don't agree he's better on the left, I prefer him running centrally.) The question is why won't Mourinho keep us going that way, with the constant interchanging and fluid movement, as you said. Just because Lukaku's not much good at it?
I agree Mourinho is going to insist on 4-2-3-1 and Pogba will have to adapt, but he seems half the player playing on a midfield two, specially having to pair on the right with Matić. Every other midfielder playing as #6 would allow him to play on the left.
I agree Mourinho is going to insist on 4-2-3-1 and Pogba will have to adapt, but he seems half the player playing on a midfield two, specially having to pair on the right with Matić. Every other midfielder playing as #6 would allow him to play on the left.
Yea it's unleashing Pogba that's the key. I would always have a holding 2, because we get overran in the middle. A forward thinking player like Pogba its not his natural game to sit and do the job he wants to affect play up the park and knows he can and often will try things that he probably should not without cover.
Where was Herrera yesterday? Because one would guess McTominay, while good yesterday. Will be limited to his number of starts!
3 cbs
Matic
Lingard Pogba
Mata Sanchez
Martial Lukaku
3-5-2.
Matic
Lingard Pogba
Mata Sanchez
Martial Lukaku
3-5-2.
It's a good job you're not the manager!