Juventus is a team that dominates their opponents, something that United ain't doing and Pogba at Juve had world class players next to him. The context is way different and if we want United to play better then 4-3-3 is the right formation. Because three midfielders are better than two. And Lingard can't be a part of that midfield.
4-2-3-1 needs to die
- Thread starter Rajma
- Start date
4-2-3-1 is NOT two midfielders. Why do people keep saying this? I read it all the time here 'midfield two'. No it is not.
Is central midfield two better for you? It's obvious what people mean.
Dear caf members, 4-2-3-1 does NOT mean playing only two players in midfield. Can we please repeating this over and over again? In fact, at the core of the formation, is the very idea of outnumbering the opponent in the midfield. Our problem is not the formation (which is increasingly popular among elite teams). Our problem is the quality of our play and how we execute.
No it is not. Please read most posts again and you'll see. Many people really think that playing 4-2-3-1 means having only two players in the midfield role.
Why not just go back to the classic 442?
It's a balanced formation and providing at least one of the strikers (Sanchez for example) comes a bit deeper to get the ball then you can add a bit more strength in midfield.
Something like this:
De Gea
Valencia - Bailly - Rojo - Shaw
Rashford - Matic - Pogba - Martial
Lukaku - Sanchez
It's a balanced formation and providing at least one of the strikers (Sanchez for example) comes a bit deeper to get the ball then you can add a bit more strength in midfield.
Something like this:
De Gea
Valencia - Bailly - Rojo - Shaw
Rashford - Matic - Pogba - Martial
Lukaku - Sanchez
A 4-4-2 relies on wide wing play. Martial and Rashford are both not wide wingers. They are forwards who start out wide but come inside.
They can definitely be deployed as wingers. Their pace a dribbling skills are suited to wingers. Their crossing could definitely improve though.
Last edited by a moderator:
Mourinho confirmed in his press conference that it was a 433 against Newcastle (well, his intention anyway), with Pogba and Lingard in front of Matic, which is what I was alluding to.13:35
Mourinho on Pogba's position
“The position is quite ridiculous to speak about it because I think we have I don’t want to be - what’s the opposition of nice - I don’t want to be nasty with other countries punditry industry but we have here a number here the biggest pundit industry because there are hundreds of them with great background and knowledge in football and I would like somebody to tell me which position you think Pogba played in against Newcastle.
“Any one of you want to tell me.
“Okay midfield, but we played with one number six and numbers eights, or two six and one 10, we play with one six and two eights, we play with Matic as a six, Lingard on the right side of Matic and Pogba on the left side, you know which is the Pogba preferred system? 433? “Do you know Pogba’s favourite position in 433?
“Eight on the left, so it’s easy and honest and objective to say Paul didn’t play well against Newcastle but some of the guys are paid millions, don’t let people read things that are not true, you are paid to read the game and explain the game, don’t say bull****.”
Now, he definitely needs to look at the balance and positioning, because it just seemed like Pogba and Lingard had no clear instructions.
From looking at the average positions that I put in my previous post, the both (Pogba and Lingard) are very narrow, when actually, in a 433, it should be clear who is on the left and who is on the right.
For example, below are two teams that play a 433:
Man City
Clear to see De Bruyne (17) is on the right and Silva (21) is on the left.
Napoli
Clear to see Allan (5) is on the right and Hamsik (17) is on the left.
vs Newcastle
Clear to see we have a front three and Matic holding, but not clear to see who is on the right and left out of Pogba (6) and Lingard (14). It's just a straight line.
Actually, the only time I can remember Pogba being played in the position he played for Juventus was against Everton, which funnily enough, was probably his best game this season.
Vs Everton
In this graphic above, it is now clear to see who was on the left and who was on the right.
Now, I do think Pogba and Lingard would benefit from having a strong, dynamic box to box next to them, i.e. Khedira, Vidal, Nainggolan, etc. It would provide a better balance. However, the both could play above Matic. Mourinho would need to work on their positions, though.
Definitely not!
Good post.Mourinho confirmed in his press conference that it was a 433 against Newcastle (well, his intention anyway), with Pogba and Lingard in front of Matic, which is what I was alluding to.
Now, he definitely needs to look at the balance and positioning, because it just seemed like Pogba and Lingard had no clear instructions.
From looking at the average positions that I put in my previous post, the both (Pogba and Lingard) are very narrow, when actually, in a 433, it should be clear who is on the left and who is on the right.
For example, below are two teams that play a 433:
Man City
Clear to see De Bruyne (17) is on the right and Silva (21) is on the left.
Napoli
Clear to see Allan (5) is on the right and Hamsik (17) is on the left.
vs Newcastle
Clear to see we have a front three and Matic holding, but not clear to see who is on the right and left out of Pogba (6) and Lingard (14). It's just a straight line.
Actually, the only time I can remember Pogba being played in the position he played for Juventus was against Everton, which funnily enough, was probably his best game this season.
Vs Everton
In this graphic above, it is now clear to see who was on the left and who was on the right.
Now, I do think Pogba and Lingard would benefit from having a strong, dynamic box to box next to them, i.e. Khedira, Vidal, Nainggolan, etc. It would provide a better balance. However, the both could play above Matic. Mourinho would need to work on their positions, though.
Very interesting post (the guy that posted the heat maps). Probably the most informative I've seen to date.
The 433 dynamics of our neighbors is interesting in particular. See how high up the pitch they play, they don't allow the oppositions to breathe, something that we should consider.
Tbh they remind me of how Fergie had us set up in terms of allowing the wings to press up high as long as they have that central core to diminish any threats through the middle.
Fernandinho is possibly the most underrated player in th league. His tactical intelligence allows both silva and de bruyne to dictate the attacking phase of play.
I think Mourinho is too conservative in that he allows the opposition too much time on the ball. We should deploy Pogba as a box to box midfielder with assurances from Matic and Herrera. That way he can use his strength and finesse to create both opportunities and space for Sanchez, Martial and Lukaku.
The 433 dynamics of our neighbors is interesting in particular. See how high up the pitch they play, they don't allow the oppositions to breathe, something that we should consider.
Tbh they remind me of how Fergie had us set up in terms of allowing the wings to press up high as long as they have that central core to diminish any threats through the middle.
Fernandinho is possibly the most underrated player in th league. His tactical intelligence allows both silva and de bruyne to dictate the attacking phase of play.
I think Mourinho is too conservative in that he allows the opposition too much time on the ball. We should deploy Pogba as a box to box midfielder with assurances from Matic and Herrera. That way he can use his strength and finesse to create both opportunities and space for Sanchez, Martial and Lukaku.
Last edited by a moderator:
@Walters_19_MuFc he can talk all he wants to appease the crowd and pundits but how many time have you seen Pogba cross the half line and operate on the right? He spend almost entire game deep on our half whilst Lingard was operating as a #10.
Nothing more than a futile attempt to shut down pundits because everyone could see he played 4-2-3-1 with Matić and Pogba laying deep.
Nothing more than a futile attempt to shut down pundits because everyone could see he played 4-2-3-1 with Matić and Pogba laying deep.
I wonder if we can try playing with a formation like this
Martial Lukaku
-----Sanchez------
Pogba------Herrera
-------Matic-------
Obviously sacrificing width and I don't have a lot of confidence in our fullbacks but Sanchez does seem to play very well centrally with his incisive passing and it'll give Pogba more freedom in the left side of the midfield with Herrera and Matic both doing defensive duties, similar to how he functioned at Juventus.
Martial Lukaku
-----Sanchez------
Pogba------Herrera
-------Matic-------
Obviously sacrificing width and I don't have a lot of confidence in our fullbacks but Sanchez does seem to play very well centrally with his incisive passing and it'll give Pogba more freedom in the left side of the midfield with Herrera and Matic both doing defensive duties, similar to how he functioned at Juventus.
Lingard sure likes to stay close to Pogbavs Newcastle
Clear to see we have a front three and Matic holding, but not clear to see who is on the right and left out of Pogba (6) and Lingard (14). It's just a straight line.
Actually, the only time I can remember Pogba being played in the position he played for Juventus was against Everton, which funnily enough, was probably his best game this season.
Vs Everton
In this graphic above, it is now clear to see who was on the left and who was on the right.
Now, I do think Pogba and Lingard would benefit from having a strong, dynamic box to box next to them, i.e. Khedira, Vidal, Nainggolan, etc. It would provide a better balance. However, the both could play above Matic. Mourinho would need to work on their positions, though.
Nicely done.vs Newcastle
Clear to see we have a front three and Matic holding, but not clear to see who is on the right and left out of Pogba (6) and Lingard (14). It's just a straight line.
Actually, the only time I can remember Pogba being played in the position he played for Juventus was against Everton, which funnily enough, was probably his best game this season.
Vs Everton
In this graphic above, it is now clear to see who was on the left and who was on the right.
Now, I do think Pogba and Lingard would benefit from having a strong, dynamic box to box next to them, i.e. Khedira, Vidal, Nainggolan, etc. It would provide a better balance. However, the both could play above Matic. Mourinho would need to work on their positions, though.
So against Newcastle, Lingard and Pogba mainly drifted out of their instructed area, occupying more central-narrower positions. I think it has to do with Sanchez hugging the left, so Pogba move more centrally. Lingard is not known to hold his position.
Any chance you have our other games, specifically when both Pogba and Matic played as 6s? Could be interesting.
Lingard sure likes to stay close to Pogba
Bros stick together.Vs Leicester (Away) 2-2
Vs Brighton (Home) 1-0
Vs Leicester (Home) 2-0
Vs Newcastle (Home) 4-1
Vs Spurs (Away) 2-0
Vs Swansea (Away) 0-4
Vs West Ham (Home) 4-0
Not really. There's no way Pogba was deep that game.
After the game, I argued that it wasn't quite a 4231. Not the 4231 he normally sets up anyway. Actually, I said it was a 433 (well, his intended formation) and he obviously confirmed that in his press conference.
However, he said that Pogba was on the left and Lingard was on the right. Without looking at the average positions, it was clear to see that there was no clear instructions by both, Pogba and Lingard. I didn't know who was on what side, and the avg positions back that up.
It's either, Jose set them up in a 433 and Pogba and Lingard didn't stick to instructions, or it was a 4231, with Pogba pushed really high up and Matic really deep.
I don't know what to believe anymore.
Fact is, we've played a 433 before, and when Pogba was told to play on the left side, he played on the left. It was evident to see.
Against Newcastle, if we did play a 433, it wasn't clear to see. A 4231 wasn't clear either, to be honest.
Next year it will be 4231 at home, 433 away.
Many thanks.Vs Leicester (Away) 2-2
Vs Brighton (Home) 1-0
Vs Leicester (Home) 2-0
Vs Newcastle (Home) 4-1
Vs Spurs (Away) 2-0
Vs Swansea (Away) 0-4
Vs West Ham (Home) 4-0
Cheers @Walters_19_MuFc , wow we're all over the shop compared to Napoli's symmetric positioning. You can tell which team actually had a coaching hand in it. Truly shocking, no wonder opposition is finding easy to pin us down considering the spaces we're leaving them to exploit between the players coupled by our 'pressing' which evidently does more harm to us than good.
vs Newcastle
This one is the worst of them all. I'm sorry but head's should roll over this, not sure how can anyone argue against the notion that we're very poorly coached team after seeing this, and keep blaming players.I do appreciate your effort and the time you put at composing those posts with iconographics and stuff but that Newcastle game either that was the worst attempt at playing 4-3-3 (and Pogba was really deep, only memorable time he crossed the half line was for that header attempt after someone crossed the ball from the left, think he might have made an offensive faul on that play) or Mourinho was being dishonest in an attempt to silence the critics and pundits.
I dont mind 4231 formation. Our problem is beyond using 433 or 4231...
When we signed Matic, we have a good midfield of with him and Pogba, they just have a poor level lately.
If we continue playing 4231, I think Sanchez should play behind Lukaku, with Martial on the left and Lingard/Mata on the right. A positive attribute of Alexis is his work rate, so he would be helpful to our midfield. However, if we play versus a big team, I agree that adding a midfield is useful.
We just need our best players to click besides the formation.
When we signed Matic, we have a good midfield of with him and Pogba, they just have a poor level lately.
If we continue playing 4231, I think Sanchez should play behind Lukaku, with Martial on the left and Lingard/Mata on the right. A positive attribute of Alexis is his work rate, so he would be helpful to our midfield. However, if we play versus a big team, I agree that adding a midfield is useful.
We just need our best players to click besides the formation.
Average Player Position is a terrible way of showing where players are on the pitch.
For example:
You see the above and you look at Lingard (#14) it shows his average position is in the middle of the pitch.
But if you look at his touches and heatmap, you'll see Lingard actually played on the wings as well. But the touches on the wing are cancelled out in the average position image. You can see it more clearly with Martial #11, he made a lot of touches on the right side but because he switched flanks to the left with 15mins to go the average position makes it look like he played as a right striker. It's just a crap way of analysing games (I used to look at it a few years back until I noticed the obvious flaw).
For example:
You see the above and you look at Lingard (#14) it shows his average position is in the middle of the pitch.
But if you look at his touches and heatmap, you'll see Lingard actually played on the wings as well. But the touches on the wing are cancelled out in the average position image. You can see it more clearly with Martial #11, he made a lot of touches on the right side but because he switched flanks to the left with 15mins to go the average position makes it look like he played as a right striker. It's just a crap way of analysing games (I used to look at it a few years back until I noticed the obvious flaw).
@RedSky
Well, I used average positions to back up my reasoning why I felt Jose played a 433, and a few days later he confirmed that. It showed that both Pogba and Lingard were way ahead of Matic.
I do agree that a change of positions can mess with the average positions, but more often than not, it is normally accurate. I mean, we could guess where everyone played apart from possibly Lingard and Pogba. It's clear to see Martial was on the right, albeit not as narrow. Lukaku up top, Sanchez on the left, Matic as a holder, etc.
If you look at Man City or Napoli's avg position, it will more often than not be the same every game, regardless of personnel.
I think that's our problem, though. We have a lack of set instructions. It's like 11 players, especially the front 6, are told to run around and find space. There's no structure. We moaned about Van Gaal, but the players knew their roles and what he wanted from them. It's the same with Pep now.
Well, I used average positions to back up my reasoning why I felt Jose played a 433, and a few days later he confirmed that. It showed that both Pogba and Lingard were way ahead of Matic.
I do agree that a change of positions can mess with the average positions, but more often than not, it is normally accurate. I mean, we could guess where everyone played apart from possibly Lingard and Pogba. It's clear to see Martial was on the right, albeit not as narrow. Lukaku up top, Sanchez on the left, Matic as a holder, etc.
If you look at Man City or Napoli's avg position, it will more often than not be the same every game, regardless of personnel.
I think that's our problem, though. We have a lack of set instructions. It's like 11 players, especially the front 6, are told to run around and find space. There's no structure. We moaned about Van Gaal, but the players knew their roles and what he wanted from them. It's the same with Pep now.
It's just not a very accurate way of representing a players position is all. If Martial played 45mins on the left and 45mins on the right, the average position would have him in the middle of the pitch. That's why it's a bit shit.
If being the operative word. More often than not, that doesn't happen.
Look through our avg positions this season, and you'll be able to say who's been playing where.
That said, like I said, I only used the graphics to prove my point, and I felt I was able to do that. Much easier to show people than to tell them.
Agreed, average position is not based on touches, rather the actual positions the player is operating in throughout the game. It makes sense that the majority of players are in central locations as when the opposition has the ball, the most natural way to defend is in the middle. However, when we have the ball, most of the touches are going to be on the flanks as this is where the majority of the space is.
The heat maps are much more informative in terms of a players position during attack while the average position is a clearer indication of where players operate without the ball. Maybe I’m wrong but I think that makes sense.
My point is that it's just not very good, heatmaps are a far better tool. To me it just feels like it's mis interpreting the game. I mean you say that it rarely happens and yet against Newcastle Martial switched flanks for the last 25mins. So it does happen
Anyway, applaud your effort. It's fun looking at heatmaps and touches in a bit more depth.
Heat maps are better in what way? From looking at the heat maps, there's no way you'd be able to tell me what formation/system we played, whereas average positions gives you an idea.My point is that it's just not very good, heatmaps are a far better tool. To me it just feels like it's mis interpreting the game. I mean you say that it rarely happens and yet against Newcastle Martial switched flanks for the last 25mins. So it does happen
Anyway, applaud your effort. It's fun looking at heatmaps and touches in a bit more depth.
Yes, as you said, players could move and could affect that, but all in all, you'd be able to kind of point out who played where.
Vs Swansea (Away) and vs Spurs (away) are completely identical. One of them must be wrong.
Heatmaps give you a better indication of which areas of the pitch the player was focused on. Matic for example tends to always have a very similar heatmap in every game he plays. In the example above you can see that Pogba drifted across the entire midfield. Lukaku focused most of his touches on the right channel. Sanchez switched between several positions during the game. Lingard kept wide and yet was dragged inside a few times. Martial on the whole kept wide but drifted in towards the penalty box.
It tells you more about our tactics and strategy for the game.
I agree, but wouldn't say the average positions is 'a terrible way of showing where players are on the pitch', as you put it. It gives you exactly what it says - the average positions.
In terms of the heat maps, it seems that either the players weren't listening to Jose, or Jose was lying about the system he put out, because there's no way Pogba was on the left. Heat maps and average positrons back that up.
Actually, it looks like Pogba made more touches on the right, which means Pogba, Lingard and Matic, according to touches,sp ent the majority of time right. Add Lukaku and Martial to that too. Balance is awful.
It's terrible in that it's completely flawed. That's my point.
It's funny you mention that about having most touches on the right side of the pitch. If you look at the penalty area, Sanchez and Martial are the only players who have a touch in it and it consists of 3 touches.
You can also see that despite playing 3 in midfield, Matic is the only one that really tracked back properly that game and disrupted any Newcastle attacks. I've been mentioning balance for a few weeks now hence my big thread the other day. The balance currently isn't right.
I personally don't really understand the "system a is shite and needs to die" rethoric. 4-2-3-1 can be amazing if you have the right players for it and is it really such a long shot to say United could make it work? I think blindly staring at those little numbers is pointless.
Take for example (yes here we go again with the endless Dutch football references) Holland's 2010 world cup side. They almost won the fecking thing playing 4-2-3-1. I think personel wise United have much of the same type of players if you put it next to that Holland squad.
DDG = worth about 7 Maarten Stekelenburgs
Shaw = Gio van Bronckhorst
Smalling = John Heitinga
Phil Jones = Joris Matthijsen
Valencia = Gregory van der Wiel
Matic = Nigel de Jong
Pogba = Wesley Sneijder
Herrera = Mark van Bommel
Alexis = Arjen Robben
Martial = Dirk Kuyt (bear with me)
Lukaku = RVP
The bolded is ofcourse the main problem. Lukaku is no Robin van Persie. He doesn't have the touch, vision or passing ability Robin has, but Ibra last year could fill those shoes imho. My point is, the way you fill out the teamsheet is not the be all and end all of your tactics. Changing the line up from 4-2-3-1 to 4-3-3, 5-3-2 or 0-10-0 doesn't fix any problems. It's just a tiny piece of the puzzle.
The biggest problem is trying to counter attack with a striker who isn't especially good at holding up a ball. And counter attacking is what Mou does, regardless of who stand where on paper.
Take for example (yes here we go again with the endless Dutch football references) Holland's 2010 world cup side. They almost won the fecking thing playing 4-2-3-1. I think personel wise United have much of the same type of players if you put it next to that Holland squad.
DDG = worth about 7 Maarten Stekelenburgs
Shaw = Gio van Bronckhorst
Smalling = John Heitinga
Phil Jones = Joris Matthijsen
Valencia = Gregory van der Wiel
Matic = Nigel de Jong
Pogba = Wesley Sneijder
Herrera = Mark van Bommel
Alexis = Arjen Robben
Martial = Dirk Kuyt (bear with me
)Lukaku = RVP
The bolded is ofcourse the main problem. Lukaku is no Robin van Persie. He doesn't have the touch, vision or passing ability Robin has, but Ibra last year could fill those shoes imho. My point is, the way you fill out the teamsheet is not the be all and end all of your tactics. Changing the line up from 4-2-3-1 to 4-3-3, 5-3-2 or 0-10-0 doesn't fix any problems. It's just a tiny piece of the puzzle.
The biggest problem is trying to counter attack with a striker who isn't especially good at holding up a ball. And counter attacking is what Mou does, regardless of who stand where on paper.
We'll have to agree to disagree then, because I posted a few average positions, and all, or at least most of them, show that we played a 4231 with Pogba as the advanced midfielder in most of them, with right midfielder coming inside and the left winger keeping the width a bit more.
Mate, I agree. This was thread was mainly started in relation to our player selection and how we performed using this system. Nothing wrong with the formation itself.I personally don't really understand the "system a is shite and needs to die" rethoric. 4-2-3-1 can be amazing if you have the right players for it and is it really such a long shot to say United could make it work? I think blindly staring at those little numbers is pointless.
Take for example (yes here we go again with the endless Dutch football references) Holland's 2010 world cup side. They almost won the fecking thing playing 4-2-3-1. I think personel wise United have much of the same type of players if you put it next to that Holland squad.
DDG = worth about 7 Maarten Stekelenburgs
Shaw = Gio van Bronckhorst
Smalling = John Heitinga
Phil Jones = Joris Matthijsen
Valencia = Gregory van der Wiel
Matic = Nigel de Jong
Pogba = Wesley Sneijder
Herrera = Mark van Bommel
Alexis = Arjen Robben
Martial = Dirk Kuyt (bear with me
Lukaku = RVP
The bolded is ofcourse the main problem. Lukaku is no Robin van Persie. He doesn't have the touch, vision or passing ability Robin has, but Ibra last year could fill those shoes imho. My point is, the way you fill out the teamsheet is not the be all and end all of your tactics. Changing the line up from 4-2-3-1 to 4-3-3, 5-3-2 or 0-10-0 doesn't fix any problems. It's just a tiny piece of the puzzle.
The biggest problem is trying to counter attack with a striker who isn't especially good at holding up a ball. And counter attacking is what Mou does, regardless of who stand where on paper.
Hey.. Hey.. my .. my...
4231 should never die...
4231 should never die...