No wing-backs?
4-2-3-1 needs to die
- Thread starter Rajma
- Start date
Lingard cut inside, Martial appeared on the left, etc. Loads of interchanging and movement. Don't think Sanchez and Pogba would get in the way of each other. Just about using your common sense and moving into an area no one is in.
Maybe Lukaku isn't as dynamic as Martial, Rashford, etc, but we've hardly seen him in a 433 to give that judgement. He does work the channels and especially likes to drift into that right channel, where he can cut onto his left.
Fact is, Jose prefers a 4231. Always has, always will. He will still allow fluid movement from the front four as we saw yesterday (Mata popping up on left for assist), but he wants his deep midfielders to recover the ball and start play.
Mourinho said this about McTominay yesterday.
"I made a few changes thinking about the characteristics of this game and I think this kid [McTominay] has a great desire to recover the ball when the team is not in possession.
"He's a kid that chases the ball, that tries to recover high up the pitch and when he has the ball it is always simple and against opponents like Huddersfield, so close and with so many bodies behind the ball, the simplicity sometimes is genius.
"You don't have space, you have to open spaces by playing simple, so was a decision to play the kid."
To me, if Mourinho wanted that type of player as a double pivot 6, then he should never have bought Pogba, unless he was going to play him elsewhere.
I wouldn't be so sure. I think McTominay's physicality and tenacity has really impressed Jose. Wouldn't surprise me if, even when Herrera's back, McTominay continues to start.
Apparent once again today. Makes zero sense, our attacks lack any kind of fluidity with this formation.
Ridiculous how we still persist, despite being taught a footballing lesson by Spurs.
Ridiculous how we still persist, despite being taught a footballing lesson by Spurs.
This formation really needs to go away.
Really starting to annoy me
It’s such a negative formation and it doesn’t suit our players.
It’s worrying the manager can’t see this when it’s so obvious.
It’s such a negative formation and it doesn’t suit our players.
It’s worrying the manager can’t see this when it’s so obvious.
Herrera and Felliani were injured. We don't have other central midfielder bar Mctomiany to play 433.
Nah we're playing 4-2-3-1, you can tell by how deep Pogba is.
I don't have a problem with the formation but I'm sorry you cannot play Sanchez/Lingard/Pogba/Lukaku/Martial at the same time, there is just no balance there.
He isn't deep though. He's just standing in the middle doing nothing. He isn't going deep or getting forward. Lingard is dropping deeper and getting forward more.
No way in hell is Lingard dropping deeper than Pogba in this game.
Insanity - doing same thing all over again and thinking it will yield different results.
He clearly was. He was dropping deeper to actually try to defend which Pogba never bothered with and he was dropping alongside Matic at times to pick up the ball. Pogba was literally doing nothing, not dropping or getting forward. It was a joke of a performance and people can whine all about formations they want but the issue was the piling steam of shit Pogba put out there. Not the semantics of what the formation was.
Lingard wasn't dropping more deeper than Pogba, end of discussion.
He was. End of discussion.
It doesnt matter what formation we play when our front 4 players stand still like statues when we have the ball
The way they're set up now actually makes sense for 4231. Mainly no pogba there and Mata naturally on the right with Martial left.
Nope he was not .
This is what I've wanted right now.
A sitter in Matic/Carrick, a box to box in Matic/Pogba, and an advanced playmaker in Alexis/Pogba, with a forward 3. I love seeing Carrick on the pitch but I've wanted to see a 3 of Matic/Pogba/Alexis, though if Pogba's given up Matic can take his role with Carrick/Herrera sitting.
A sitter in Matic/Carrick, a box to box in Matic/Pogba, and an advanced playmaker in Alexis/Pogba, with a forward 3. I love seeing Carrick on the pitch but I've wanted to see a 3 of Matic/Pogba/Alexis, though if Pogba's given up Matic can take his role with Carrick/Herrera sitting.
We need more attackers. 5 isn't enough to start with.
7 is needed, minimum.
7 is needed, minimum.
Pretty much playing a 4-1-4-1 today.. the formation isnt the issue. If you think we are magically going to become a new football team once we find this elusive formation you need to start watching football a bit more.
That’s true, it’s either no Pogba or midfield of three proper CMs. Hopefully, it was the final straw for Jose today and he takes either of those two options.
This is a fascinating exchange.
Scroll back there was more, you gonna love it.
Awful formation. No excuses now we have a good team but we play like fecking Stoke.
Matic and Pogba in a 2 just doesn’t work, it suits neither of them.
Matic and Pogba in a 2 just doesn’t work, it suits neither of them.
I'm glad you like it, it's the little things we enjoy in life .
I'm sure.
Just how the feck can't Mourinho see this isn't working?!
Ha ha you really think if you increase quantity of the attackers we'd create more chances especially under Mourinho? First thing Mourinho thinks about an attacker is if he tracks back well. Apart from Lukaku every attacker has to constantly watch their backs to run back.
No, way definitely played a 433, with Lingard and Pogba above Matic.
When Pogba came off for Carrick, we went with a 4231.
Playing with Pogba and Lingard in front of Matic is all but 4-3-3.
Why? You don't look at personnel when judging a system, you look at positions. Based on the positions, both Pogba and Lingard were playing today would suggest we played with a 433/4141.
You could clearly see that we started with 4-2-3-1 by Pogba's deep position and Lingard operating through the middle mostly, after all it's Mourinho's go to formation when Lingard, Pogba and Matić are together on the pitch.
If anything we transitioned to 4-3-3 when Carric and McTomminay were introduced.
Yea and i didnt see 4-3-3 as shape when it should be.
We started and finished in a 4-2-3-1. Pogba played alongside Matic with Lingard ahead of them in a sort of free-role/CAM role which he didn't adapt to very well.
A 4-3-3 would put Matic under a severe amount of pressure, but on the other hand it would unleash Pogba. Didfficult decision for Jose to make and a dangerous one at that.
4-2-3-1 is the safest option for the time being and it's no surprise to see Jose adopting it given the circumstances, with a couple of quality additions to the midfield in the summer we may just see some changes to the formation.
To be fair, if we want to be technical, then it'd be more a 4411 than a 4231.
A 4231 requires two defensive midfielders to sit in front of the back four, break up play and simply distribute the ball to attacking quartet and full backs.
Against Huddersfield, it was a proper 4231. As you can see from the image below (orange), we have Matic (31) and McTominay (39) more or less side to side. Always had the box of four (2 centre backs + 2 holding mids). Then you have your high full backs and your roaming three behind the striker.
Vs Huddersfield
Today; however, looking at the image below in blue, you can see the distinct difference in positions taken up compared to Pogba (6) and McTominay's in the above image.
Matic, as you can see, is the only holding midfielder, whereas Pogba is slightly behind Lingard. Now, that's neither a 4231, nor is it quite a 433.
Vs Newcastle
Now, my question is, why is Pogba so far ahead of Matic? Has Mourinho asked him to play like that or is Pogba, despite being dropped last week, doing his own thing?
Look at McTominay against Huddersfield. Despite being at home against a team, where you'd expect us to dominate - which we did, he was still pretty deep, according to players average positions. Whereas, Pogba today, despite being away to Newcastle, was a lot higher up. It doesn't quite add up. If anything, it should be the opposite.
To me, it must be Pogba doing his own thing, and if that's the case, then he has to be dropped, or not played as a 6, because it's hurting our team shape and structure.
If Jose wants to play a proper 4231, then he needs to look at the way Pochettino plays it.
This is not me saying Poch is a better manager, but he plays a 4231 fantastically, in my opinion.
Below are images against us (United) and Arsenal that show the average positions.
Vs Man United (Spurs in orange)
Vs Arsenal (Spurs in orange)
As you can see, Dembele and Dier are always in tandem with each other. Superbly positioned. That's how a double pivot should be played. Constantly got the box of four (2 centre backs + 2 defensive midfielders) to stop any potential counters.
Then you can see the full backs are either always at least level, or above their defensive midfielders, then you have your attacking four.
As I've said before, Jose needs to sort out what he actually wants to do, because at the moment, the structure of our team is all over the place. Not only can you see that on the pitch, but the images suggests the same thing too.
Would love to see 433 of given a run of games:
DDG
Valencia Rojo Jones Shaw
Herrera Matic Pogba
Lingard Martial Sanchez
I'm not totally against Lukaku, and I think he puts in his best but we simply don't have the attack on the wing to suit him right now. We've got intricate, close-knit players - that's not Lukaku's game.
DDG
Valencia Rojo Jones Shaw
Herrera Matic Pogba
Lingard Martial Sanchez
I'm not totally against Lukaku, and I think he puts in his best but we simply don't have the attack on the wing to suit him right now. We've got intricate, close-knit players - that's not Lukaku's game.
@groovyalbert My best 11 is similar to that but with Sanchez on the right, Martial on the left and Rashford up front. All with the freedom to rotate as desired.
Considered Rash for mine but thought it would be hard to justify dropping Rom for him considering Rashford is probably in worse form than him.