5th Best player of all time

[JPRouve]

1. Pele
2. Maradona
3. Cristiano Ronaldo
4. Messi
5. Ronaldinho
6. Ronaldo
7. Zidane

Funny thing is that in France plenty of people will argue that Platini was better than Zidane.

Edit: Just for fun this is the top 10 for Sofoot in 2012:

1. Maradona
2. Ronaldo
3. Cruyff
4. Platini
5. Socrates
6. Pelé
7. Di Stefano
8. Redondo
9. Van Basten
10. Baggio

It's provocative.

 

[Rozay]

One game doesn't prove much though. And while he terrorised us, so did Pedersen. Raul in the inverse tie was almost as good against us.

He was more like Suarez/Neymar/Griezmann level in Madrid rather than an all time great.

I agree with all of that. But Suarez, Neymar, Griezmann level is not to be used to criticise him, especially as that was his latter years in Europe. Again, we know while he couldn’t maintain the phenomenon level for longer, but to criticise that period of his career when he was as good as Griezmann is not appropriate. The level Michael Owen was at by the time he joined United, or Falcao, would be a more suitable level to cite as an example. He was still arguably the best 9 in the world for at least some of his time at Real.

And Raul was also a brilliant player. And Ronaldo has more than one good game for Real.

 

[Brwned]

Obviously it's an effective and important thing if used correctly but too many people treat it as if it was the most important thing for a team when it really isn't and most great teams don't need a player like that. Plenty of different ways to be effectively great and you don't need to be a great playmaker or passer to have more impact than all other players.

Interesting. How many great teams would you name that didn't have a great playmaker?

On a completely unrelated note, I came across a great quote from Matthaus recently on Beckenbauer which I think sums up his supremacy. Anyone who watched him at his peak instantly gets what Matthaus is talking about, and I think it's the intangible things like that which are lost above all else in this conversation.

No less a legend than the two Argentines, does Matthaus want to be remembered as a unique player who could defend and attack with equal efficiency and ease, much like his 1986 and 1990 coach Beckenbauer?

"Yes, of course, that is a similarity between us," he said.

Then, he quickly added with a roar of laughter: "There is one difference. I worked hard for the team. Franz made the team work hard for him. He is 'the Kaiser.' I am only Matthaus."

 

[Revan]

Funny thing is that in France plenty of people will argue that Platini was better than Zidane.

Edit: Just for fun this is the top 10 for Sofoot in 2012:

1. Maradona
2. Ronaldo
3. Cruyff
4. Platini
5. Socrates
6. Pelé
7. Di Stefano
8. Redondo
9. Van Basten
10. Baggio

It's provocative.

It isn't provocative, it is batshit crazy!

 

[Peyroteo]

Interesting. How many great teams would you name that didn't have a great playmaker?

Most of them, how many of the top teams in the world have a great playmaker that they center their game around?

In modern football I believe it's usually for the best to reduce the ammount of influence those players have rather than increase it actually. Argentina tried to make everything go through Messi and it was a disaster for example.

The problem with playmakers/dribblers is they need space and they need a lot of the ball and it can have a negative impact on the team too so it depends from case to case. In general they tend to be able to be slowed down much more effectively than a forward with several dimensions to their game which is why I tend to prefer the more complete players.

Anyway, it shouldn't be treated as the be-all and end-all of football the way it is for a lot of people. Plenty of players have managed to completely dominate the sport without being playmakers.

 

[JPRouve]

It isn't provocative, it is batshit crazy!

I find it interesting though. Watching the OP's list I asked myself whether these players were actually all top 20 players and it's not that obvious, there is a decent amount of players with a shout that aren't mentioned.

 

[Revan]

I find it interesting though. Watching the OP's list I asked myself whether these players were actually all top 20 players and it's not that obvious, there is a decent amount of players with a shout that aren't mentioned.

I don't know what is worse. Baggio, Redondo and Sokratis in top 10, Sokratis ahead of Pele, or Pele in the sixth position.

 

[Brwned]

Most of them, how many of the top teams in the world have a great playmaker that they center their game around?

That's a very different question - most of the the time the game is centred around a playmaker when the rest of the team are not at the same level and there's a lack of genuine attacking threats elsewhere. Which is exactly what happened with Messi.

On the flipside there are loads of great teams with wonderful playmakers that had multiple points of attack and multiple playmakers within them. I find it strange you call yourself a fan of Pélé but don't care much for playmaking given he was universally recognised as a playmaker, and that 1970 tournament was the possibly the greatest collection of playmakers to play in a World Cup final.

His greatest achievement in that World Cup was being the playmaker of playmakers - he made that team great. Put in any other number of players in there and it would've been pure chaos, but he managed to create real chemistry there. That's one of Messi's great achievements too - he co-existed along with playmakers in a way his compatriot couldn't.

So to answer the question of which great teams had a playmaker in it, even if you just look at teams that won major trophies...

International teams (at least 1 WC / Euro)

Italy 1934 and 1938 - Giuseppe Meazza (and Ferrari)
Germany 1954 - Fritz Walter
Brazil 1958 and 1962 - Didi (and Pélé)
England 1966 - Charlton (and Moore)
Brazil 1970 - Pélé (and Rivelino, Gerson, Tostao)
Germany 1972 - Netzer (and Beckenbauer, Overath)
Italy 1982 - Conti
France 1984 - Platini
Argentina 1986 - Maradona
France 1998 - Zidane
Brazil 2002 - Rivaldo (and Ronaldinho)
Italy 2006 - Pirlo
Spain 2010 - Xavi (and Iniesta)
Germany 2014 - Kroos (and Ozil)

Club teams (reached at least 2 European Cup finals in a short period)

Real Madrid late 50s - Di Stéfano (and Puskás, Kopa)
Benfica early 60s - Coluna
Internazionale early 60s - Suárez (and Mazzola)
Ajax early 70s - Cruyff (and Keizer, Krol, Neeskens)
Bayern mid 70s - Beckenbauer (and Brietner)
Liverpool early 80s - Dalglish
Juve early 80s - Platini (and Boniek, Scirea)
Juve late 90s - Zidane
Madrid late 90s - Redondo (and Raúl)
Milan early-mid 00s - Pirlo (and Káká, Rui Costa)
Barcelona mid 00s - Ronaldinho (and Xavi, Iniesta)
Barcelona early-mid 10s - Messi (and Xavi, Iniesta)
Madrid mid-10s - Modric (and Kroos)

And that's using a very limited sample of teams to start with...

You can use a very limited definition of a playmaker to rule out some of these players due to the role they occupied - e.g. Beckenbauer didn't play like a classical #10, so he can't be a "playmaker"...despite him being universally recognised as the definition of a playmaker at the time, and undoubtedly seeing the game revolve around him more than Messi for the majority of his career. But the majority of these players occupied the same spaces and were clearly tasked with the responsibility of being a playmaker.

So I'd say the majority of great teams have had playmakers - many of them had multiple.

 

[JPRouve]

I don't know what is worse. Baggio, Redondo and Sokratis in top 10, Sokratis ahead of Pele, or Pele in the sixth position.

Pelé is bad and Redondo is hipstery, I have no idea about the rest. Also Beckenbauer is 11th which I find prepesterous. Now the reality is that I have no idea about who should be where, for example Di Stefano thought that Kopa was one of the best but you rarely see him high in these lists.

 

[Peyroteo]

@Brwned You're right, I was talking about a much more limited definition. I wouldn't consider Modric or Coluna playmakers at all for example, I was talking about the more classic number 10s which are kind of a dying breed in world football.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Italy 1982 - Conti

(and Antognoni)

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Funny thing is that in France plenty of people will argue that Platini was better than Zidane.

He was.

 

[Brwned]

@Brwned You're right, I was talking about a much more limited definition. I wouldn't consider Modric or Coluna playmakers at all for example, I was talking about the more classic number 10s which are kind of a dying breed in world football.

But that wasn't the origin of the discussion - you were talking about the qualities of a playmaker, specifically playmaking and great passing. If you agree that these are essential qualities to have in a team, and the players listed possessed those qualities, than that in itself is recognition of why players with those qualities are put on a pedestal by fans, players and managers alike and have been for generations. Having goalscoring on top only elevates that status. If you're not a fan of those kinds of players that's as important as anything here - it all comes down to preferences. But it's clearly established that these qualities are found throughout the greatest teams of all-time.

(and Antognoni)

Good call!

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Good call!

To further add to the point (which I agree with), one could add Corso to the great Inter team - and, I suppose, the great Milan team of the late 60s (with Rivera playing the part).

The one that stands out as an exception is the (greater, historically) Milan team of the late 80s, which had no playmaker on par with the heaviest hitters mentioned above. Albertini was a great passer, of course, but he doesn't really fit the bill - clearly overshadowed by a whole gang of others in that team, and wasn't really a creative fulcrum of the sort we're talking about here.

 

[Brwned]

To further add to the point (which I agree with), one could add Corso to the great Inter team - and, I suppose, the great Milan team of the late 60s (with Rivera playing the part).

The one that stands out as an exception is the (greater, historically) Milan team of the late 80s, which had no playmaker on par with the heaviest hitters mentioned above. Albertini was a great passer, of course, but he doesn't really fit the bill - clearly overshadowed by a whole gang of others in that team, and wasn't really a creative fulcrum of the sort we're talking about here.

Yeah I thought the same running through the teams - the Milan team really stand out for putting the system above the individuals, and having wonderful all-rounders in almost all areas.

Just focusing on WC winners to keep it simple, I'd say you can only really argue that of the 19 winning teams, 3 played without a traditional playmaker. Brazil in 1994 were the only ones who clearly didn't, and then if you're using really tight criteria on what a playmaker is you can say Ardiles for Argentina in '78 and Hassler for Germany in '90 don't quite cut it. Everyone else played with what by any definition was a playmaker, the vast majority of whom who were free of defensive responsibility and played just behind the forward.

 

[simplyared]

Out of that list: Best by a mile!