63% of Liverpool squad "asthmatic" - any substance to this article?

[RobinLFC]

It’s not legal if a doctor is falsely diagnosing a lung condition though. Nor is it right in any other way. And I think you know that.

The doctor is doing something wrong in your example, not the club.

I think it's not that hard to proof Exercise Induced Asthma, as shown by the % of athletes with such a diagnosis in all areas of sports. Only in a scenario like @Bazi described where a club pressures a doctor in handing out fake prescriptions there should be severe sanctions, but I very much doubt that that's the case.

I think I'm just a lot less sensitive to it than most after having followed cycling over the last 20 years. Do everything legally possible to gain an edge. If there's a grey area, explore it and see how far it brings you. All fair game imo. Just make sure you stay away from the wrong side of the line, i.e. blatantly cheating or doing illegal stuff, and I don't have a problem with it.

 

[Withnail]

As long as it's legal and we're doing it on a different level than most other clubs, I'd say our medical department is better in that case then.


Not really, if our players are taking things based on a legal prescription they're doing nothing wrong and the only one who could stand for trial is the doctor handing out fake prescriptions. Your bolded part is quite a leap and just a wild guess. Obviously that would be illegal and we should be punished but like I said, literally nothing so far suggests that that's the case.


De Bruyne has been a monster as far back as his days in Genk, to say he became one when Pep joined is just re-writing history.

Also taking an inhaler before a match starts does not enhance performances at all. Besides that point though - yes they just take whatever the doctors says they need to take. So do all cyclists. They're athletes and not doctors, they're not exactly in a position to question what's prescribed for them.

Ah now, there have been many cyclists were complicit in, if not actively driving the doping within their team. Athletes absolutely are in a position to question what's being prescribed.

 

[RobinLFC]

Ah now, there have been many cyclists were complicit in, if not actively driving the doping within their team. Athletes absolutely are in a position to question what's being prescribed.

Cyclists, obviously yes. But in that area you have an actual interest to dope yourself individually (a lot of the times in the past even on top of the doping scheme installed by the team). Those cases would be extremely rare in football I think.

If a player asks the club doctor what's inside some vitamin pill, he'll just say "vitamins". You can question it yeah but ultimately you're not gonna go to the doctor's office to check the recipe in 99% of the cases. If you become aware that your performances from a phsyical POV increase drastically then maybe yes, you could start asking real questions about it or even refuse to take the stuff you're prescribed to take.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

I’ll say the same as I do in every single PED thread.

ALL athletes take performance enhancing substances. Every single sport. Every single athlete. We can all accept that. Obviously most of those substances are legal.

The majority are taking substances that skirt around the fringes of legal.

Its not a secret. Every single opportunity to push the boundaries of fairness, is taken.

I’ve personally seen Olympian off-season ‘supplement regimes’.

My friend was the PT for a multiple race winning F1 driver who took a cocktail of something to improve his reaction time off the grid start.

I spent a lot of time around Cycle teams and retired riders happily spoke about athletes of different sports and their doping levels. The disclosures on athletes taking every substance under the sun to recover from injuries ended my old view of fairness.

It’s all dirty. Clutching pearls over Asthma diagnosis is ridiculous.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

I’ll say the same as I do in every single PED thread.

ALL athletes take performance enhancing substances. Every single sport. Every single athlete. We can all accept that. Obviously most of those substances are legal.

The majority are taking substances that skirt around the fringes of legal.

Its not a secret. Every single opportunity to push the boundaries of fairness, is taken.

I’ve personally seen Olympian off-season ‘supplement regimes’.

My friend was the PT for a multiple race winning F1 driver who took a cocktail of something to improve his reaction time off the grid start.

I spent a lot of time around Cycle teams and retired riders happily spoke about athletes of different sports and their doping levels. The disclosures on athletes taking every substance under the sun to recover from injuries ended my old view of fairness.

It’s all dirty. Clutching pearls over Asthma diagnosis is ridiculous.

And I thought it was all about the car!

 

[Cliche Guevara]

...

But it's clearly doping for Liverpool yeah, it's so obvious that, in a highly competitive sports environment, only Klopp and our medical team know something that no other team in the world knows, and they're cheating without getting caught.

Clearly.

Your American doctor has history of this.

 

[tomaldinho1]

If there's money in it, there's going to be some form of doping to improve performance when the EPL seems so lax on drug tests.

Personally I've given up on believing it's not all rigged anyway because we've seen football is corrupt at the highest levels and it's not even hidden (Blatter, Platini, City ignoring FFP, Allardyce's leaked video, Juve match fixing) so paying off a club doctor to prescribe legal drugs for a false asthma diagnosis is part and parcel of the game now sadly.

 

[dumbo]

...

But it's clearly doping for Liverpool yeah, it's so obvious that, in a highly competitive sports environment, only Klopp and our medical team know something that no other team in the world knows, and they're cheating without getting caught.

Clearly.

Nobody ever said that did they? It sounds like you have something to hide.
It's not only Liverpool who are looking down the syringe barrel of a drug scandal. Others include Liverpool, Jose Canseco, Klopp, Lance Armstrong, Mo Falah.

 

[Withnail]

Cyclists, obviously yes. But in that area you have an actual interest to dope yourself individually (a lot of the times in the past even on top of the doping scheme installed by the team). Those cases would be extremely rare in football I think.

If a player asks the club doctor what's inside some vitamin pill, he'll just say "vitamins". You can question it yeah but ultimately you're not gonna go to the doctor's office to check the recipe in 99% of the cases. If you become aware that your performances from a phsyical POV increase drastically then maybe yes, you could start asking real questions about it or even refuse to take the stuff you're prescribed to take.

Maybe not and I'm not interested in singling Liverpool out to be honest but I do think it's an interesting topic.

I'd agree somewhat from the perspective that a player not taking something that improves their stamina, for example, may affect their chances of getting in the team ahead of another player. It isn't always something a player may feel is in his best interests, career-wise, to question.

 

[RobinLFC]

Nobody ever said that did they? It sounds like you have something to hide.
It's not only Liverpool who are looking down the syringe barrel of a drug scandal. Others include Liverpool, Jose Canseco, Klopp, Lance Armstrong, Mo Falah.

Liverpool isn't looking down the barrel of a drug scandal ffs

I'm genuinely surprised that it seems like a shock to most people that professional athletes would push all boundaries possible to gain a competitive advantage. That doesn't equal "doping".

 

[Spoony]

Anyway to increase stamina eh.

 

[El Zoido]

Liverpool isn't looking down the barrel of a drug scandal ffs

I'm genuinely surprised that it seems like a shock to most people that professional athletes would push all boundaries possible to gain a competitive advantage. That doesn't equal "doping".

I mean.. it does, yeah. That’s exactly what it is. Everyone is doing it though.

 

[RobinLFC]

Anyway to increase stamina eh.

Before the coronabreak, so August-March:

We have 1 player in the top 10 of most distance covered in a game, and it's Milner.
We have 1 player in the top 10 of most distance covered this season.
We are 7th in most distance covered as a team.
We are not even top 10 in most distance covered as a team during a single game.

People are always looking for reasons as to why another team is doing better than them. While Utd was on top, it was because Fergie bribed the FA. Now with Liverpool on top, it's because Klopp gives his players illegal PEDs. Both make no sense.

 

[The Red Thinker]

Aye, not sure how accurate it is, heard it before. This is a an actual stat though - In the 2008 Beijing Games, 17 percent of cyclists and 19 percent of swimmers had asthma and yet they captured 29 and 33 percent of the medals in those sports, respectively. And from 2016:
British swimming squad and found 70% (of 33) had some form of asthma, against a national asthma rate of about 8% to 10%.
Tests on cyclists from Team Sky found a third have the condition.
Around half of elite cross-country skiers have the condition.

I think the point being made was around the use of TUE's which could be abused for performance enhancement. The question often being pondered, do all these athletes really have Asthma? Some notable names that have generated a lot of debate around this - Chris Froome and Bradley Wiggins, both multiple TDF winners. Nadal in tennis. Mo Farah.

Here's a question worth pondering. Do the excess use of their lungs in closed environments (gyms) make them prime candidates to become asthmatics? If in general, sportspersons tend to develop asthma because of the way they train, then that is an acceptable trend.

I can see how constant inhale/exhale of indoor environs when in training (not actual outdoor activity), leads to asthma. Kids especially.

 

[VeevaVee]

The doctor is doing something wrong in your example, not the club.

I think it's not that hard to proof Exercise Induced Asthma, as shown by the % of athletes with such a diagnosis in all areas of sports. Only in a scenario like @Bazi described where a club pressures a doctor in handing out fake prescriptions there should be severe sanctions, but I very much doubt that that's the case.

I think I'm just a lot less sensitive to it than most after having followed cycling over the last 20 years. Do everything legally possible to gain an edge. If there's a grey area, explore it and see how far it brings you. All fair game imo. Just make sure you stay away from the wrong side of the line, i.e. blatantly cheating or doing illegal stuff, and I don't have a problem with it.

All you may be proving there is that a lot of athletes like the idea of doping. And if the club is aware of the wrongdoing, they’re in the wrong too.

As I’ve mentioned already, the reason it’s not fair is because not everyone will be prepared to take the same risks, for legal, health, or moral reasons, or not everyone will have access to the same dodgy people. Maybe Pep’s famous doctor is the dodgiest of them all and doesn’t give a shit about the effects on the player - so there’s potentially a performance or recovery advantage there.

 

[DRJosh]

I wonder if premier league games would be as entertaining, fast and combative without performance enhancing drugs.

 

[mav_9me]

Probably, but maybe not (I don't know if exercise induced asthma is a real thing or an excuse, or if athletes are drastically more likely to be diagnosed because we care more about their lungs). If it is, then gunning for Liverpool may prove to be embarrassing in the future.

Absolutely is. Here is the link to American Thoracic Society guidelines.

Https://www.thoracic.org/statements...FjACegQIChAH&usg=AOvVaw282gXLlR_o8smduzzRoZ6C

According to this its a grey area even among respiratory consultants. The conditions of extreme exercise that athletes are subjected to can effectively cause asthma but in normal conditions they wouldn't necessarily have it.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/apr/29/elite-athletes-asthma-simon-yates-team-sky-swimmers

I actually had an exercise induced asthma attack as a kid but never quite read for it in controlled tests at the doctors. I still use salbutamol for allergy induced tightness of chest (helps me to sleep and run through the summer) even though my last asthma test was completely clear.

I am curious as to what your asthma test was. Cuz other than methacholine challenge tests there is no diagnostic test. And you wouldn't get one if you were already diagnosed as asthma. Asthma is a clinical diagnosis. Based on history. If you are talking about breathing tests known as spirometry that would be normal when you are normal (usually)

 

[RobinLFC]

All you’re proving there is that a lot of athletes like the idea of doping. And if the club is aware of the wrongdoing, they’re in the wrong too.

As I’ve mentioned already, the reason it’s not fair is because not everyone will be prepared to take the same risks, for legal, health, or moral reasons, or not everyone will have access to the same dodgy people. Maybe Pep’s famous doctor is the dodgiest of them all and doesn’t give a shit about the effects on the player - so there’s potentially a performance or recovery advantage there.

Well, not everyone has access to the same amount of money and resources in the transfer market either. Not every team has access to the same quality of training accommodation. Not every cyclist has easy access to mountains if he lives in Belgium.

Don't talk about "fair" in professional sports. If you're not willing to do or risk it all, especially in individual sports, someone else will and will be more successful than you. Simple as. Always been that way, always will be that way.

 

[RobinLFC]

I’m open to the possibility that it’s a totally level playing field, but to outright deny that that might not be the case is just wilful ignorance.

Don't think I really did that though? I just think Liverpool would be a better run football club if we have access to methods* that enhance our performances which for example United wouldn't have access to. I'm not gonna deny that a PL team has better resources or better medical staff than a League 2 club, obviously. But amongst the top teams in the world I think the level playing field is more or less there. Everyone that accused Armstrong also doped themselves in the end - Armstrong just did it in a better and more efficient way.

*If those methods are legal though, obviously.

 

[dumbo]

You can't blame United if Liverpool have a walk-in drugs cabinet. That's not how it works. And you can't come out and say "oh Lance Armstrong did it so Liverpool can now too". Mad scenes right here.

 

[RobinLFC]

You can't blame United if Liverpool have a walk-in drugs cabinet.

Do we? That's you saying that.

That's not how it works. And you can't come out and say "oh Lance Armstrong did it so Liverpool can now too". Mad scenes right here.

You lack some serious comprehensive reading skills if you take that away from what I wrote. My stance one more time: as long as it's legal (and nothing so far suggests that it isn't at Liverpool), then it's fair game.

 

[dumbo]

Na I was just saying in general you can't do that.

 

[RobinLFC]

Na I was just saying in general you can't do that.

Oh okay then we just disagree, fair enough.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Absolutely is. Here is the link to American Thoracic Society guidelines.

Https://www.thoracic.org/statements...FjACegQIChAH&usg=AOvVaw282gXLlR_o8smduzzRoZ6C



I am curious as to what your asthma test was. Cuz other than methacholine challenge tests there is no diagnostic test. And you wouldn't get one if you were already diagnosed as asthma. Asthma is a clinical diagnosis. Based on history. If you are talking about breathing tests known as spirometry that would be normal when you are normal (usually)

I have never been diagnosed with asthma. When I was about 12 I stopped being able to breathe whilst playing football after really playing out of my skin physically. I was only able to get short breaths and it felt like I was going to die. People helped me by getting me to lie down and by stretching out my arms and legs until it passed after 5 - 10 minutes or so! As such I went to the doctors and was subjected to a test for asthma. I can't remember what the test was after I had the attack because it was 25 years ago. My doctor said I was 'borderline' but never gave me the diagnosis officially or gave me any medication. I didn't have any episodes before or after that.

As I got older I started developing a tight chest through alleriges and saw the doctor for salbutamol as I can't sleep when my chest is tight. He prescribed me salbutamol. I think the only test he has done on me was the latter one you mentioned for my lung function which was fine. I now buy salbutamol online. My doctors have texted me recently about going to the asthma clinic for assessment but I don't really fancy it.

 

[Conor]

If that stat is correct, I would love to know how many of them received their diagnosis before arriving at Liverpool. I'd also like to know the Utd stats for it.

 

[strongwalker]

Ah now, there have been many cyclists were complicit in, if not actively driving the doping within their team. Athletes absolutely are in a position to question what's being prescribed.

That is true for a very few. Lance could do that, or Riis. Giants who had teams built around them. For 98% of the riders it is "keep up or quit cycling"

 

[Chesterlestreet]

It’s all dirty.

Basically, yes.

Shades of dirty. Sure.

What's a bit surprising is that many football fans (and even pundits/journos) still peddle the stance that our sport is somehow "different": the usual (and, frankly, idiotic) argument being that "skill" matters more than sheer "physicality" in football (all kinds of variations on that theme), so why would anyone bother to systematically dope the feck out of footballers?

Many fans are incredibly naive - let's just leave it at that.

 

[Withnail]

That is true for a very few. Lance could do that, or Riis. Giants who had teams built around them. For 98% of the riders it is "keep up or quit cycling"

That's why I said many were complicit. I wasn't saying many were driving it.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Lance could do that, or Riis.

Ah, Riis...as I've said before, he's kind of symbolic here - for the whole doping phenomenon, I mean.

Come clean and 'fess up to what you cannot possibly deny. Throw in some well placed tears to get some sympathy. And move on. As a champion of "clean" cycling. Yeah, right. Individuals cheated under him as team manager - but, of course, there was no "culture" and he didn't know anything about it. Sure - sounds legit. He never encouraged anyone to cheat - again, sure, whatever you say.

Bollocks. He's as dirty as a manager as he was as an athlete - it's just a matter of plausible deniability, or whatever you want to call it.

 

[Halftrack]

We get a TON of stick from other countries back here in Norway because literally every winter sports athlete we have is allegedly asthmatic, to which they receive medicine. Heck, they even offered medicine to the athletes without asthma because it enhances their performance.

At times I've heard the effect is bit like running EPO, but I have no idea about any of this.

Make no mistake, they're fecking idiots for just throwing asthma medicines after every skier, but none of the stuff they supplied have been found to have any performance enhancing effects on healthy individuals.

Salbutamol and formoterol, the only two substances used by the Norwegian Ski Team that are on the doping list, are both allowed within certain thresholds without any kind of special permit.

So whoever told you that beta-2 agonists are akin to EPO has no idea what they're talking about.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

It’s pretty funny that the best footballer ever to play the game was given HGH for a few years and we’re all just cool with that.

 

[Red_toad]

It’s pretty funny that the best footballer ever to play the game was given HGH for a few years and we’re all just cool with that.

Who said we’re cool with it?
Who said he’s the best ever? In my opinion he’s the second best argentine player I’ve seen.

 

[Woodzy]

I’d hope there’s no substance to it because over half the Liverpool squad wouldn’t stand a chance with their dodgy lungs.

 

[christinaa]

First off, taking pills, products or whatever based on a legal prescription isn't "doping" in the sense of the word how it's known in sports. If anyone wants to accuse anyone it should be the doctors handing out those prescriptions if you don't believe the quoted figures.

There are a thousand articles around about asthma in sports and the effects of its treatment on performances. Do you honestly think that medical staff at a top football club in the world doesn't look into every single detail that could potentially give even just the slightest nudge to their players? If not, you have employed the wrong medical staff as a club and are lagging behind, and that's not the fault of clubs that are in fact doing it. If I became part of Liverpool's medical staff tomorrow, not a week would go by before I'd google "marginal gains in football" or "how to improve fitness legally", or anything that might give them a competitive advantage over another team. Every team is trying to do that, whether every team employs the same tactics or is as successful at it is another matter.

Also, Klopp worked with Dortmund's medical staff, Pep with Bayern's and Barca's. Going by your logic, Klopp also had his players running around like maniacs in Dortmund, so the medical staff would've been aware of his "doping". Yet when he left, they just decided to stop using the methods that gave them an advantage and revert back to "normal"? That sounds ridiculous.

This is exactly what Juventus had said when they were caught out with doping and they were demoted to the 2nd division.
Liverpool * have an American doctor with a history of this and we all have the right to believe what we think about this issue.

 

[Isotope]

Clever thread title, with the use of "Substance". @Erics_Collar
What a subtle planting seed on readers already

 

[RobinLFC]

This is exactly what Juventus had said when they were caught out with doping and they were demoted to the 2nd division.
Liverpool * have an American doctor with a history of this and we all have the right to believe what we think about this issue.

Of course you do, yes. But if you believe that Juve was relegated because of doping, I’m just gonna laugh.

 

[georgipep]

This is exactly what Juventus had said when they were caught out with doping and they were demoted to the 2nd division.
Liverpool * have an American doctor with a history of this and we all have the right to believe what we think about this issue.

You overheard someone talking about Juventus being demoted and made wild assumptions, didn't you?

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Who said we’re cool with it?
Who said he’s the best ever? In my opinion he’s the second best argentine player I’ve seen.

Everyone is cool with it. He was a kid and he needed growth hormone.

Most say he’s the best ever.

Just that. Not answering for you. Just acknowledging the majority consensus.

 

[12OunceEpilogue]

They're gonna need another asterisk next to that title win.

 

[christinaa]

Of course you do, yes. But if you believe that Juve was relegated because of doping, I’m just gonna laugh.

That's exactly what i do when i read comments from Liverpool ** supporters.