737 Max - Boeing grounds the fleet after second crash | Production temporarily suspended

[Ramshock]

No thread on this?

Tragic and also questions will be asked about the new baby Boeing.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-47513508

 

[Paxi]

It's the second of them plane models that have crashed -- all within a couple of years.

 

[Snow]

It's the second of them plane models that have crashed -- all within a couple of years.

The other one was in October. We don't know why either plane crashed so it doesn't have to be related at all to the planes. Most crashes are human error.

 

[George Owen]

It's the second of them plane models that have crashed -- all within a couple of years.

Actually the Indonesian 737 MAX crashed only in past October.

what a shit record for a plane that was only unveiled like 2 years ago.

 

[Ramshock]

The other one was in October. We don't know why either plane crashed so it doesn't have to be related at all to the planes. Most crashes are human error.

still its unusual for 2 big crashes for a brand new model

 

[Paxi]

The other one was in October. We don't know why either plane crashed so it doesn't have to be related at all to the planes. Most crashes are human error.

Actually the Indonesian 737 MAX crashed only in past October.

what a shit record for a plane that was only unveiled like 2 years ago.

There you are now...

I mean it has to be still an incredibly low percentage.

 

[The Firestarter]

In the Lion Air crash I believe one of the speculated possibilities is a software override of control inputs , originally intended to prevent stalls however also possible to be triggered by faulty air speed / AOA data. Pilots not being informed about such feature is also not very helpful.

 

[VorZakone]

For those interested in this topic, there's a fairly large thread on r/aviation about it.

 

[Krits]

It seems like it was a case of Unreliable Speed. Has to be something more than just unreliable speed as an experienced pilot (Capt had 8000 hrs) will be able to keep a plane flying quite easily. The trickiest problem of unreliable speed is the detection of it. But from what I've heard, he seems to have detected it and told ATC on take-off.

On Airbus we used to have a procedure in which U/S would turn deadly because of the flight control protections and the computers not knowing that we were experiencing U/S. Airbus came up with a procedure to turn off these protections in flight so that pilot has max authority over flight control surfaces. From what I heard about the Indonesian crash, Boeing had come up with a similar short term solution (this part is sketchy to me, so don't take it as gospel). Interesting to see what the investigation reveals.

 

[Abizzz]

There you are now...

I mean it has to be still an incredibly low percentage.

2/~350 have now crashed. May well have been pilot error but at this point it's the worst aircraft launch in a very long time. (I have no information whether it was or wasn't pilot error)

 

[RobinLFC]

The Lion Air one wasn’t human error though, was it? It had something to do with a broke sensor. It’s a new feature which will automatically keep the nose of the plane down in order to compensate for the adjusted place of the engine which are now more to the front of the plane. Apparently it didn’t work properly and that’s why the plane kept going down and ultimately made a nosedive, or so I’ve read.

China and Ethiopia are keeping the Max down for now and Boeing have communicated that they’re going to delay the launch of their new 777X model.

 

[Adisa]

The pilot reported technical issues just after taking off and wanted to turn back. Somehow, I'm not thinking it's human error.

 

[Organic Potatoes]

The Lion Air one wasn’t human error though, was it? It had something to do with a broke sensor. It’s a new feature which will automatically keep the nose of the plane down in order to compensate for the adjusted place of the engine which are now more to the front of the plane. Apparently it didn’t work properly and that’s why the plane kept going down and ultimately made a nosedive, or so I’ve read.

China and Ethiopia are keeping the Max down for now and Boeing have communicated that they’re going to delay the launch of their new 777X model.

I thought there was a problem but the pilots should've been able to defeat the erroneous program actions had they been proficient with the new system? There are others on here that are much more knowledgeable about this though...

 

[RobinLFC]

I thought there was a problem but the pilots should've been able to defeat the erroneous program actions had they been proficient with the new system? There are others on here that are much more knowledgeable about this though...

I read that the software and/or sensor can't be turned off even if they turn off Automatic Pilot, but have to admit that I don't know a lot about the subject myself either.

Either way though, I know I'd rather not fly with a Max until it's cleared out what the problem was, and definitely not if the problem regarding the two crashes is related.

 

[The Firestarter]

It seems like it was a case of Unreliable Speed. Has to be something more than just unreliable speed as an experienced pilot (Capt had 8000 hrs) will be able to keep a plane flying quite easily. The trickiest problem of unreliable speed is the detection of it. But from what I've heard, he seems to have detected it and told ATC on take-off.

On Airbus we used to have a procedure in which U/S would turn deadly because of the flight control protections and the computers not knowing that we were experiencing U/S. Airbus came up with a procedure to turn off these protections in flight so that pilot has max authority over flight control surfaces. From what I heard about the Indonesian crash, Boeing had come up with a similar short term solution (this part is sketchy to me, so don't take it as gospel). Interesting to see what the investigation reveals.

Are you a pilot ?

 

[Krits]

Are you a pilot ?

Yes.

 

[The Firestarter]

Yes.

Ok, what I think was assumed is not unreliable speed as an indication to the pilot, but unreliable airspeed as data input to an automated stall recovery system.

 

[Il Prete Rosso]

It seems like it was a case of Unreliable Speed. Has to be something more than just unreliable speed as an experienced pilot (Capt had 8000 hrs) will be able to keep a plane flying quite easily. The trickiest problem of unreliable speed is the detection of it. But from what I've heard, he seems to have detected it and told ATC on take-off.

On Airbus we used to have a procedure in which U/S would turn deadly because of the flight control protections and the computers not knowing that we were experiencing U/S. Airbus came up with a procedure to turn off these protections in flight so that pilot has max authority over flight control surfaces. From what I heard about the Indonesian crash, Boeing had come up with a similar short term solution (this part is sketchy to me, so don't take it as gospel). Interesting to see what the investigation reveals.

I know pilots are trained to trust their instruments but do you think the abundance of these systems albeit necessary for safety take away from a pilot's natural instincts? I always remember the Air France flight that crashed in the ocean and something about that tragedy always feels like it could have been avoided if the pilots trusted their instincts.

 

[Ramshock]

2/~350 have now crashed. May well have been pilot error but at this point it's the worst aircraft launch in a very long time. (I have no information whether it was or wasn't pilot error)

I cant think of a worse one since the DC 10

 

[Ramshock]

I know pilots are trained to trust their instruments but do you think the abundance of these systems albeit necessary for safety take away from a pilot's natural instincts? I always remember the Air France flight that crashed in the ocean and something about that tragedy always feels like it could have been avoided if the pilots trusted their instincts.

The one with the covered pitot tubes at night? That was horribly tragic

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

It seems like it was a case of Unreliable Speed. Has to be something more than just unreliable speed as an experienced pilot (Capt had 8000 hrs) will be able to keep a plane flying quite easily. The trickiest problem of unreliable speed is the detection of it. But from what I've heard, he seems to have detected it and told ATC on take-off.

On Airbus we used to have a procedure in which U/S would turn deadly because of the flight control protections and the computers not knowing that we were experiencing U/S. Airbus came up with a procedure to turn off these protections in flight so that pilot has max authority over flight control surfaces. From what I heard about the Indonesian crash, Boeing had come up with a similar short term solution (this part is sketchy to me, so don't take it as gospel). Interesting to see what the investigation reveals.

News is that the new anti-stalling feature causes the nose to dive despite pilot intervention.

 

[Enigma_87]

News is that the new anti-stalling feature causes the nose to dive despite pilot intervention.

Indeed. AOA sensor issue is what I read and it could be related to Lion Air Boeing 737 Max crash earlier last year.

 

[Enigma_87]

It seems like it was a case of Unreliable Speed. Has to be something more than just unreliable speed as an experienced pilot (Capt had 8000 hrs) will be able to keep a plane flying quite easily. The trickiest problem of unreliable speed is the detection of it. But from what I've heard, he seems to have detected it and told ATC on take-off.

On Airbus we used to have a procedure in which U/S would turn deadly because of the flight control protections and the computers not knowing that we were experiencing U/S. Airbus came up with a procedure to turn off these protections in flight so that pilot has max authority over flight control surfaces. From what I heard about the Indonesian crash, Boeing had come up with a similar short term solution (this part is sketchy to me, so don't take it as gospel). Interesting to see what the investigation reveals.

Early data point to altitude rather than speed. Obviously related but the Boeing was gaining and losing altitude very sharply. The pilot also wanted to turn around so there was issue in the cockpit with the computer. If it was speed he wouldn't gain or lose altitude at that rate.

 

[MDFC Manager]

Horrific from Boeing if it's the same, it even similar issue to the one in the Lion Air crash

 

[Buster15]

It's the second of them plane models that have crashed -- all within a couple of years.

Much less than that. More like 5 to 6 months.

 

[MuFc_1992]

Early data point to altitude rather than speed. Obviously related but the Boeing was gaining and losing altitude very sharply. The pilot also wanted to turn around so there was issue in the cockpit with the computer. If it was speed he wouldn't gain or lose altitude at that rate.

I'm guessing that was due to Max-8's auto trim feature reacting to faulty AOA data and trimming the plane down and pilots reacting and trimming the plane up and the same process repeating itself. It's a really stupid engineering design that cost so many people their lives

 

[Krits]

I heard that the pilot next in line to this 737 reported that he heard the 737 pilot declaring emergency due to unreliable speed. Like I said, waiting for investigation. Media reporting often misses base a lot, especially to do with aviation.

This is my only fear as a pilot. To be in a situation where my ability and experience is rendered moot and I’m at the mercy of the plane. Everything else at least I have a chance of doing something and I trust my training to do it.

 

[Andrew~]

My mum flew with them last week and is due to fly back on the 25th, really scary stuff.

 

[utdalltheway]

Didn't they say pilot training in the Lion Air crash was the issue, not the plane itself or was it a faulty sensor?
Seems inconceivable that it still could have pilots not fully trained on the plane's automatic functions, or that the sensors on all aircraft weren't fixed.

 

[Arruda]

Didn't they say pilot training in the Lion Air crash was the issue, not the plane itself or was it a faulty sensor?
Seems inconceivable that it still could have pilots not fully trained on the plane's automatic functions, or that the sensors on all aircraft weren't fixed.

The thing is, pilot training may have been the issue in the Lion Air incident but that doesn't mean it was Lion Air's responsibility. Arguably Boeing sold these new planes as not requiring specific re-training (a major advantage which made their product more attractive) so it's not like every pilot is suddenly being re-trained on them until it's confirmed this is the problem. When/If Boeing admits pilots need specific training for these new systems then they will be in deep shit.

EDIT: A side note from reading the r/aviation thread, half of those posts seem to be Boeing "fanboys" being defensive of them and Airbus "fanboys" trying to lay blame on Boeing without knowing what the hell happened. It seems we always have to convert to a binary world, it's Ronaldo vs Messi, Boeing vs Airbus, for Trump or against him. People really need to take sides on everything.

 

[Solius]

This is why I don't relax on a plane until about 20 minutes after take-off. These crashes always seem to happen shortly afterwards.

 

[utdalltheway]

The thing is, pilot training may have been the issue in the Lion Air incident but that doesn't mean it was Lion Air's responsibility. Arguably Boeing sold these new planes as not requiring specific re-training (a major advantage which made their product more attractive) so it's not like every pilot is suddenly being re-trained on them until it's confirmed this is the problem. When/If Boeing admits pilots need specific training for these new systems then they will be in deep shit.

EDIT: A side note from reading the r/aviation thread, half of those posts seem to be Boeing "fanboys" being defensive of them and Airbus "fanboys" trying to lay blame on Boeing without knowing what the hell happened. It seems we always have to convert to a binary world, it's Ronaldo vs Messi, Boeing vs Airbus, for Trump or against him. People really need to take sides on everything.

It's a very high stakes game for both Airbus and Boeing so not surprised about the fanboys aspect. A bit of unbiased thought would go a long way but when dealing with billions it's not going to happen.
Today Boeing's stock is getting hammered so they'll be keen to keep the blame off the aircraft.
And of course Airbus stock is up.

 

[VorZakone]

The thing is, pilot training may have been the issue in the Lion Air incident but that doesn't mean it was Lion Air's responsibility. Arguably Boeing sold these new planes as not requiring specific re-training (a major advantage which made their product more attractive) so it's not like every pilot is suddenly being re-trained on them until it's confirmed this is the problem. When/If Boeing admits pilots need specific training for these new systems then they will be in deep shit.

EDIT: A side note from reading the r/aviation thread, half of those posts seem to be Boeing "fanboys" being defensive of them and Airbus "fanboys" trying to lay blame on Boeing without knowing what the hell happened. It seems we always have to convert to a binary world, it's Ronaldo vs Messi, Boeing vs Airbus, for Trump or against him. People really need to take sides on everything.

I noticed this too. Weird stuff.

 

[Enigma_87]

I'm guessing that was due to Max-8's auto trim feature reacting to faulty AOA data and trimming the plane down and pilots reacting and trimming the plane up and the same process repeating itself. It's a really stupid engineering design that cost so many people their lives

Yeah could explain the steep climbs and then suddenly losing altitude.

As mentioned it could not be the plane itself but poor or even lack of training. Airlines often cut corners and with new airplanes it is always an issue.

Not sure if the pilots also became disoriented, even though it was bright day and calm weather. I was reading mainly the Flightradar24 data as otherwise the preliminary reports are always very limited in actual information.

 

[Abizzz]

EDIT: A side note from reading the r/aviation thread, half of those posts seem to be Boeing "fanboys" being defensive of them and Airbus "fanboys" trying to lay blame on Boeing without knowing what the hell happened. It seems we always have to convert to a binary world, it's Ronaldo vs Messi, Boeing vs Airbus, for Trump or against him. People really need to take sides on everything.

One of those is different from the others . What did you expect from reddit?

 

[The Firestarter]

On airliners.net it's a little bit more civilized and argumentative but still the same.

 

[WR]

I know pilots are trained to trust their instruments but do you think the abundance of these systems albeit necessary for safety take away from a pilot's natural instincts? I always remember the Air France flight that crashed in the ocean and something about that tragedy always feels like it could have been avoided if the pilots trusted their instincts.

Wasn't there a mid air collision a while back as well where the TCAS told one plane to ascend and the other to descend, but one pilot followed his own instincts and the other followed TCAS? I think the result of the investigation of that crash in that situation was to always abide by TCAS, not sure how relateable this is to other systems in the plane though

 

[Kasper]

My mum flew with them last week and is due to fly back on the 25th, really scary stuff.

Ethiopian Airlines is generally a very professional airline with high standards (they're also member of star alliance) so this really is just an outlier, especially as it seems it was a plane and not pilotp issue.

I actually flew this exact line (Addis-Nairobi) last year, same Boeing model as well, weird feeling now that this happened.

 

[utdalltheway]

Scary, Kasper.
I flew Ethiopian too, but the LA/Dublin/LA route. Not bad. They use the dreamliner, iirc. The flight only stops in Dublin before it carries on to Addis.

 

[Arruda]

Wasn't there a mid air collision a while back as well where the TCAS told one plane to ascend and the other to descend, but one pilot followed his own instincts and the other followed TCAS? I think the result of the investigation of that crash in that situation was to always abide by TCAS, not sure how relateable this is to other systems in the plane though

The one pilot wasn't ignoring TCAS because of his instincts, he was following ATC instructions.

The poor ATC guy was murdered in front of his family for the incindent, by the way.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Überlingen_mid-air_collision