A less OTT and reactionary piece on our transfers this summer

simonhch said:
How is it mind boggling? He's an uncapped 24 year old with a modest performance record. Admittedly Spain have ridiculous depths of riches in midfield, but by comparison Fellaini has 6 years of Premiership experience (this is relevant as we play in the Premier League) and 42 caps to his name. He's been the/one of the best midfielder(s) outside the top 6 for a while. Maybe one doesn't quite agree with the valuations but it's hardly mind boggling. As far as I'm aware Herrera has hardly ever set the world alight. He's just way overpriced because he's Basque.
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What does this matter? How many caps would have Fellaini and Cleverley combined if they were Spanish? A grand total of 0.

As I said yesterday, Illarramendi has 0 caps for Spain, Thiago Alcantara has 4, Isco has 0. All top quality players. In a team that has Alonso, Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta, Silva, Mata, Cazorla, Fabregas, Martinez as senior players and has a very conservative manager, it is to be expected that some quality young players won't play. On the contrary, the team Fellaini has 42 caps hasn't qualified for any big tournament since WC 2002 while this Spanish team has won the three latest big tournaments. The moment you try to put in argument that Herrera has 0 caps while Fellaini has 42 is the moment you accept talking nonsense.

I agree with you that Fellaini is one of the best midfielders outside of top 6. He probably is even the best midfielder there. The problem is that outside of top 6 is his level. People had the same argument with Young, he's one of the best wingers outside of top 6 so he'll shine here. Well, he didn't. I sincerely hope that I am wrong, but just I can't ever see how Fellaini would be more than a squad player here (in case we really think to improve the midfield).
 
Why would City have turned down Ozil? In fact, I don't get that regardless of the article, because even if he wasn't offered they could still have gone for him. He'd have improved them massively.

If I was in charge at United I'd have been tempted to offer Rooney in exchange, if he was agreeable to it. Rooney's better, but he wants out, and Real aren't a direct competitor.
 
simonhch said:
How is 26M Euros for Herrera "audaciously low"? Isn't a 36M Euro release clause preposterously high? Bayern had to pay only 4M euros more for Martinez who is twice the player Herrera is. I don't think we should go about paying releases clauses just to get deals done. 36M for Herrera was ridiculous. Glad the club didn't pay that. However to reiterate, I agree with you that the timing was odd.
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It's a release clause. They're rarely at the exact value of the player as its usually put in place to 'protect' the selling club not to offer value to the buying club. We knew it was there and how much it was but we tried to penny pinch again. Illarramendi isn't worth €39m but Madrid wanted him (despite their midfield being stronger than ours and them having lots of time to try other options) and they went straight in and got him early. They acted quickly and decisively and paid the clause. If we weren't willing to play the clause so late in the window, we should have been looking at low budget options then.

Fellaini was also silly given that he could have been here at the start of preseason but we thought it'd be clever to bid low and save a bit of money after the clause expired then it ended up backfiring and we paid way over the odds for an average player.

That article actually highlights the clusterfecks of this window.
 
It's easy to look back now and say not going for Thiago was stupid, but I think the club genuinely believed we could sign Cesc Fabregas and had convinced Moyes this was the case. Was this summer a missed opportunity? If it's true that we were ready to splash some serious money like reported, then yes, but ultimately we've strengthened in an area we desperately needed to strengthen and that's all that matters, we still have the money in the bank and hopefully we'll have some better luck with our top targets in the future.
 
noodlehair said:
Why would City have turned down Ozil? In fact, I don't get that regardless of the article, because even if he wasn't offered they could still have gone for him. He'd have improved them massively.

If I was in charge at United I'd have been tempted to offer Rooney in exchange, if he was agreeable to it. Rooney's better, but he wants out, and Real aren't a direct competitor.
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I doubt they'd have wanted Rooney. They needed money to help pay for their next marquee signing - Bale even though Ozil was perhaps better suited to their team.
 
The Fellaini deal is the one we really made the biggest mistake on, considering his release clause was still in tact when it was quite clear we wouldn't be signing Fabregas. More important than the money we foolishly wasted, was the fact that we could've had some time to integrate him into our squad before a very challenging opening to the season.

As for Herrera, I really think we should've just paid the money to land him. We can go back in January or next summer and Bilbao will still demand the same amount, it's not like they'll accept our valuation at a later date. Bilbao will always demand the amount of his release clause and the fact is they don't have to sell as they are in decent shape for a La Liga team not named Real Madrid or Barcelona. I'd agree that the release clause is more than what he worth at this point in time, but we've paid over the odds for nearly every transfer we've ever done, so I don't see the problem with doing it this time for someone with huge potential and in an area we need help in. My biggest fear about this situation is that we've created a huge buzz about Herrera and some other club will have no problem paying his release clause and we'll miss out on a player who could've been a star here for the next decade.
 
Revan said:
What does this matter? How many caps would have Fellaini and Cleverley combined if they were Spanish? A grand total of 0.

As I said yesterday, Illarramendi has 0 caps for Spain, Thiago Alcantara has 4, Isco has 0. All top quality players. In a team that has Alonso, Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta, Silva, Mata, Cazorla, Fabregas, Martinez as senior players and has a very conservative manager, it is to be expected that some quality young players won't play. On the contrary, the team Fellaini has 42 caps hasn't qualified for any big tournament since WC 2002 while this Spanish team has won the three latest big tournaments. The moment you try to put in argument that Herrera has 0 caps while Fellaini has 42 is the moment you accept talking nonsense.

I agree with you that Fellaini is one of the best midfielders outside of top 6. He probably is even the best midfielder there. The problem is that outside of top 6 is his level. People had the same argument with Young, he's one of the best wingers outside of top 6 so he'll shine here. Well, he didn't. I sincerely hope that I am wrong, but just I can't ever see how Fellaini would be more than a squad player here (in case we really think to improve the midfield).
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My point wasn't to compare their ability by the number of caps but to undermine the assertion you made that the differences in their valuations were "mind boggling". I specifically noted the embarrassment of riches Spain had in midfield when making the point. You have yet to provide a solid argument for your claim. You talk about Fellaini's level being "outside the top 6" what about Herrera's? Bilbao have only finished 6th once in the last five years. Their level being more 10-12th place in La Liga. Yet you seem to rate him higher than Fellaini. The moment you try to put in argument league position as relevance of an individual's talent and/or potential, is the moment you accept talking nonsense.

We both agree that United's timing of the bid was all wrong. I don't accept that their valuation was.
 
simonhch said:
How is 26M Euros for Herrera "audaciously low"? Isn't a 36M Euro release clause preposterously high? Bayern had to pay only 4M euros more for Martinez who is twice the player Herrera is. I don't think we should go about paying releases clauses just to get deals done. 36M for Herrera was ridiculous. Glad the club didn't pay that. However to reiterate, I agree with you that the timing was odd.
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It's not that high no, not compared to some in Spain, and Martinez is not twice the player at all. You don't understand Athletic Bilbao as a club. They are very comfortable financially, they have just paid for a brand new stadium and they don't need to sell players to get along. United trying to once again set valuations in a seller's market obviously cut no ice with them. United should have been aware they would need to meet the release clause for one of Bilbao's prized assets.

You don't think United should pay release clauses? Perhaps they really should have done with Fellaini don't you think? Herrera would only cost another £3million more than Fellaini was purchased for. That seems reasonable to me considering the comparative abilities of both players.
 
simonhch said:
My point wasn't to compare their ability by the number of caps but to undermine the assertion you made that the differences in their valuations were "mind boggling". I specifically noted the embarrassment of riches Spain had in midfield when making the point. You have yet to provide a solid argument for your claim. You talk about Fellaini's level being "outside the top 6" what about Herrera's? Bilbao have only finished 6th once in the last five years. Their level being more 10-12th place in La Liga. Yet you seem to rate him higher than Fellaini. The moment you try to put in argument league position as relevance of an individual's talent and/or potential, is the moment you accept talking nonsense.

We both agree that United's timing of the bid was all wrong. I don't accept that their valuation was.
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Then why did we try to sign him? When every poster who watches La Liga regularly knew that Bilbao doesn't negotiate (hell in Martinez they simply refused to talk, something that no-one does), how the people who are expected to know more than us didn't knew this simple fact.

Herrera has also been one of the best midfielders outside of the clubs who regularly go in UCL from Spain. In a league that has much better midfielders than EPL and is way better technically.
 
LR7 said:
It's a release clause. They're rarely at the exact value of the player as its usually put in place to 'protect' the selling club not to offer value to the buying club. We knew it was there and how much it was but we tried to penny pinch again. Illarramendi isn't worth €39m but Madrid wanted him (despite their midfield being stronger than ours and them having lots of time to try other options) and they went straight in and got him early. They acted quickly and decisively and paid the clause. If we weren't willing to play the clause so late in the window, we should have been looking at low budget options then.

Fellaini was also silly given that he could have been here at the start of preseason but we thought it'd be clever to bid low and save a bit of money after the clause expired then it ended up backfiring and we paid way over the odds for an average player.

That article actually highlights the clusterfecks of this window.
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Agreed on most things here. However I don't think paying 39M for Illarramendi is a policy to be envious of. It is grossly, grossly overpriced. I totally agree that there has been a shambolic approach from United in this window. I've been appalled by it. But I do think that some of what the club has been criticized for has been misinformation. We normally do our business early and efficiently. With the change in manager, that obviously wasn't going to happen this summer. This deadline day shit is exactly why we normally avoid it.

We paid over the odds for Fellaini, an "average player". But I would contend Madrid grossly over paid for an equally average player. Time will tell.
 
Revan said:
Then why did we try to sign him? When every poster who watches La Liga regularly knew that Bilbao doesn't negotiate (hell in Martinez they simply refused to talk, something that no-one does), how the people who are expected to know more than us didn't knew this simple fact.

Herrera has also been one of the best midfielders outside of the clubs who regularly go in UCL from Spain. In a league that has much better midfielders than EPL and is way better technically.
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Does the top echelons have way better midfielders than the top echelons of the premier league? Barca aside? Spain certainly do over England, but we have so many top foreign imports here, I'm not sure that claim carries too much weight. Marginally better at best. I understand what you are saying about technique, but isn't that only one barometer of quality? There are others. Many highly technical players have failed to adapt to the cut and thrust of the EPL.

There is a marked difference in quality between Herrera and Martinez. You can understand why they didn't even want to listen over Martinez. He's immense. Herrera is not in the same category. It's not ridiculous to think that they may be willing to sell for a negotiated price.
 
Thiago is the biggest bargain of the entire summer. If Moyes refused to sign a player bordering on World-Class for such a low fee just because he didn't have enough "background knowledge" then that is pathetic
 
Comsmit said:
It's not that high no, not compared to some in Spain, and Martinez is not twice the player at all. You don't understand Athletic Bilbao as a club. They are very comfortable financially, they have just paid for a brand new stadium and they don't need to sell players to get along. United trying to once again set valuations in a seller's market obviously cut no ice with them. United should have been aware they would need to meet the release clause for one of Bilbao's prized assets.

You don't think United should pay release clauses? Perhaps they really should have done with Fellaini don't you think? Herrera would only cost another £3million more than Fellaini was purchased for. That seems reasonable to me considering the comparative abilities of both players.
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I understand Bilbao very well as a club thank you. Helps that I spent years living in Spain. It's why I commented about Herrera being overpriced because he's Basque. I understand their prerogative and imperative for valuing their players differently to other clubs, however that doesn't mean that their valuations hold true to the rest of us. United clearly didn't think he was worth what Bilbao rated him at and made a reasonable offer. I really don't see why the club should be lambasted for that. We shouldn't be over paying for players just to keep fans happy.

And yes, your point about Fellaini's release clause is well made but entirely irrelevant to this argument. I suspect you already know that. For a start his clause represented close to his market value. A number which was less than we ended up paying for him. This is rarely the case with any other player. I do not understand the logic of what the club did with Fellaini.
 
simonhch said:
Does the top echelons have way better midfielders than the top echelons of the premier league? Barca aside? Spain certainly do over England, but we have so many top foreign imports here, I'm not sure that claim carries too much weight. Marginally better at best. I understand what you are saying about technique, but isn't that only one barometer of quality? There are others. Many highly technical players have failed to adapt to the cut and thrust of the EPL.

There is a marked difference in quality between Herrera and Martinez. You can understand why they didn't even want to listen over Martinez. He's immense. Herrera is not in the same category. It's not ridiculous to think that they may be willing to sell for a negotiated price.
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They didn't even want to listen for Herrera too. They didn't even want to listen for Llorente too and refused 20m EUR from Juve. Llorente then started 4 games in the other season and went for free to Juve in this summer. Moral of the story is Bilbao doesn't listen to you. As president of them said, if you want the player, the player has to want to leave and the club pays the clause. That is how they make business. Like it or not, that's how it is and if we wanted to get him there was't a point trying to negotiate when we know the answer before that.

England is the worst from top 4 leagues when it comes for central midfielders. Carrick is the best in the league (and by a distance if we take into context only last season) and he wouldn't be in top 5 central midfielders in La Liga.
 
Comsmit said:
A nothing article really, doesn't provide any insight it's just fairly subjective. Simply cannot believe the dumb section on Thiago. If Moyes was responsible in that way then he is without doubt a complete berk. I refuse to believe he does not know how good that player is.

The same questions remain,

Why did they attempt to buy Herrera under a week before the deadline, when anyone with a brain could see the deal would be complex?
Why did they only offer £20 million when they should know damn well Athletic Bilbao do not negotiate for their players?
Why is Ander Herrera not worth his buy-out clause but Sami Khedira is suddenly worth £34 million on deadline day?

People can try and spin United's summer in a positive way but anyone can see it's been a shocker, Fellaini doesn't change that.
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Well of course it is subjective, that is the point of the article. It's United spin on it. It's better then nothing, because the club is going not going explain what has happened in the transfer window on the record. I expect Moyes in his next press conference to bat away a lot of any unanswered questions as well.
 
I don't get the point with people complaining that players aren't worth what is being paid for them nowadays.

Sure they aren't. But neither is a matchday ticket worth premier leagues are charging for them nowadays or shirt sponsorship deals worth what major companies are paying for them nowadays. You can't overcharge at one end and complain you're being overcharged the other. If you want to be stingy..no..saintly on player valuations, you should also be saintly on what you charge your fans for tickets, merchandise etc. Else it's just hypocrisy to whine about player prices being over-inflated.
 
Makes me wonder if this is Moyes and Woodman or if the Glazers had their hand in there.
Revan said:
Strange that United value Herrera at 20m but signed Fellaini at 27.5m. Mind boggling.
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Proven Premier League player vs one that is not.

This entire thing makes me wonder if it was Moyes and Wood being amateurs or if the Glazers were sticking their hands in because Gill and SAF were gone and they finally could.
 
mickeza said:
What midfielders outside the top two clubs in Spain are better than Carrick?
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Who said outside. I said that Carrick is the best in our league (by a distance from last year) and he wouldn't be even in top 5 best midfielders in La Liga.
 
How is this a fantastic insight though? He's just guessing - that we didn't want Thiago, that we valued Herrera at £20m (why a confirmed bid of €30m which translates to more than £25m then?) and we felt it'd be 18 months before he could become a first-team which is pure nonsense, that we spent so much time on making an effort to keep a player who was contracted to us for 2 more years. It's not really better than anything people believe, it's the same this - a few guesses here and there.
 
simonhch said:
Agreed on most things here. However I don't think paying 39M for Illarramendi is a policy to be envious of. It is grossly, grossly overpriced. I totally agree that there has been a shambolic approach from United in this window. I've been appalled by it. But I do think that some of what the club has been criticized for has been misinformation. We normally do our business early and efficiently. With the change in manager, that obviously wasn't going to happen this summer. This deadline day shit is exactly why we normally avoid it.

We paid over the odds for Fellaini, an "average player". But I would contend Madrid grossly over paid for an equally average player. Time will tell.
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£27.5m for Fellaini was grossly grossly overpriced.
Also, should our money just sit gathering dust? We love people to know that we're one of the richest clubs in the world but we are going to get left behind if we remain so highly principled on transfers even when the benefits massively outweigh the negatives. I'm not saying spend €100m on Bale but our midfield needed strengthening and we knew this lads release clause. Would it have harmed us financially to have bought him even if it was a little bit overpriced? No it wouldn't but on the contrary it would have shown backing for Moyes from the owners, he wouldn't be getting nearly as much flak as the papers are giving him and Ed atm, it would have significantly strengthened the squad in an area that really needed strengthening and it would have been a boost for the fans and players.

I agree avoiding deadline day should be the key in the future and I know its 'ifs' and 'maybes' but getting Thiago in nice and early would have avoided this entirely.
 
LawCharltonBest said:
Thiago is the biggest bargain of the entire summer. If Moyes refused to sign a player bordering on World-Class for such a low fee just because he didn't have enough "background knowledge" then that is pathetic
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We scouted him for three years so clearly there was enough background knowledge, Moyes for whatever reason though wasn't satisfied with it.
 
AlwaysRedwood said:
Proven Premier League player vs one that is not.
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A lot of proven Premier League players fail. Young, Downing, Robbie Keane, Adam etc.

A lot of players come directly here and shine. Modric, Silva, Mata, Hazard, Oscar etc.

Moral of the story: We should sign quality players, not proven in EPL but limited players.
 
AlwaysRedwood said:
Makes me wonder if this is Moyes and Woodman or if the Glazers had their hand in there.

Proven Premier League player vs one that is not.

This entire thing makes me wonder if it was Moyes and Wood being amateurs or if the Glazers were sticking their hands in because Gill and SAF were gone and they finally could.
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If we are really using proven PL as a factor in evaluating and pricing players then our problem runs deeper.
 
Revan said:
A lot of proven Premier League players fail. Young, Downing, Robbie Keane, Adam etc.

A lot of players come directly here and shine. Modric, Silva, Mata, Hazard, Oscar etc.

Moral of the story: We should sign quality players, not proven in EPL but limited players.
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PL proven is a load of nonsense, best players usually are trained in countries like Holland, Germany and Spain and if you don't move in for them quickly they'll be snapped up by your rivals. Discrediting top talent because they aren't PL proven is arrogant at least.
 
Revan said:
They didn't even want to listen for Herrera too. They didn't even want to listen for Llorente too and refused 20m EUR from Juve. Llorente then started 4 games in the other season and went for free to Juve in this summer. Moral of the story is Bilbao doesn't listen to you. As president of them said, if you want the player, the player has to want to leave and the club pays the clause. That is how they make business. Like it or not, that's how it is and if we wanted to get him there was't a point trying to negotiate when we know the answer before that.

England is the worst from top 4 leagues when it comes for central midfielders. Carrick is the best in the league (and by a distance if we take into context only last season) and he wouldn't be in top 5 central midfielders in La Liga.
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Clearly nonsense.

Bilbao sold Asier Del Horno to Chelsea for a few million less than his 20M Euro release clause. So there is precedent.
 
noodlehair said:
Taylor is usually right or at least close wth his United info but lots of bits of that make no sense.

Moyes was sure he wanted 2 midfielders but not sure enough to try and sign the best one available for a bargan price? A signing which would have been approved by Fergie if it was already in place...and yet Moyes also wanted the squad which Fergie assembled to be kept together. I mean, huh?

Why would over half of United's time have been spent on Wayne Rooney if the club had decided not to sell him regardless of the offer? If that's the case there was no work to be done.
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Exactly. I don't see why we wouldn't go for thiago. It doesn't make any sense. Moyes might be meticulous in what he does or whether, but he's not daft.

And we had feck all to do on the Rooney front. The only effort moyes had to put in regarding that was all those stupid questions he had to answer whoever he want on whether Rooney had changed his undies or slept in what position. The real effort which would take any time was made by the media speculating and by fans discussing. And probably by Wayne Rooney spending energy fleeing confused and angry.
 
simonhch said:
Clearly nonsense.

Bilbao sold Asier Del Horno to Chelsea for a few million less than his 20M Euro release clause. So there is precedent.
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It's all depended how important is that player for Bilbao. Of course that you can sign players for them for less than their clause if they aren't their best players and they have replacements. Herrera at the moment is the best Bilbao player, same as were before Llorente and Martinez.

Sarni said:
PL proven is a load of nonsense, best players usually are trained in countries like Holland, Germany and Spain and if you don't move in for them quickly they'll be snapped up by your rivals. Discrediting top talent because they aren't PL proven is arrogant at least.
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Completely agree.
 
Revan said:
A lot of proven Premier League players fail. Young, Downing, Robbie Keane, Adam etc.

A lot of players come directly here and shine. Modric, Silva, Mata, Hazard, Oscar etc.

Moral of the story: We should sign quality players, not proven in EPL but limited players.
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That's a different argument and it doesn't change the fact that Premier League players are valued higher because of their experience.
 
Sarni said:
How is this a fantastic insight though? He's just guessing - that we didn't want Thiago, that we valued Herrera at £20m (why a confirmed bid of €30m which translates to more than £25m then?) and we felt it'd be 18 months before he could become a first-team which is pure nonsense, that we spent so much time on making an effort to keep a player who was contracted to us for 2 more years. It's not really better than anything people believe, it's the same this - a few guesses here and there.
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Daniel Taylor has obviously been briefed by United. Why would he just pluck £20M in the air? Whether the article is BS or not, Taylor is just the messenger, and it has all the hallmark of the club responding, off the record to the negative press and media coverage of United's transfer policy throughout the summer.
 
Revan said:
Who said outside. I said that Carrick is the best in our league (by a distance from last year) and he wouldn't be even in top 5 best midfielders in La Liga.
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You said Herrera was one of the top midfielders outside the top four and used Carrick not getting into the top five as proof of how much stronger the level of midfielders are in La Liga compared to the Premier League. The fact the five ahead of Carrick all play for the top two sides in Spain is relevant because it indicates that outside the top two, the level of midfielder isn't any stronger than the Premier League, thus making Herrera being one of the top midfielders outside the top four in a league full of top midfielders less impressive. This makes perfect sense in my head, it's entirely possible it makes no sense when written down.
 
psychdelicblues said:
Daniel Taylor has obviously been briefed by United. Why would he just pluck £20M in the air? Whether the article is BS or not, Taylor is just the messenger, and it has all the hallmark of the club responding, off the record to the negative press and media coverage of United's transfer policy throughout the summer.
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Yeah it's clearly spin. I'd take most of what's been written with a pinch of salt. Our scattergun approach was there for all to see, no amount of spin will change that. It's a shame Gill didn't stay on for another season, at least with his experience we wouldn't have looked like amachussss.
 
psychdelicblues said:
Daniel Taylor has obviously been briefed by United. Why would he just pluck £20M in the air? Whether the article is BS or not, Taylor is just the messenger, and it has all the hallmark of the club responding, off the record to the negative press and media coverage of United's transfer policy throughout the summer.
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We spent half the time sorting out Rooney thing? What was there to sort - he wasn't signing a new deal and he was contracted to us for two more years, if this whole thing took us a month to sort out then it's worrying how slow we work.

We had a confirmed £25m bid for Herrera rejected too.

As you say, it was probably written to take some blame off United and make us look slightly better.
 
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