A less OTT and reactionary piece on our transfers this summer

[UnofficialDevil]

Christ you have some massive wood for this guy, don't you? Even if we did bid the £18m do you think he'd have chose us over the chance to work with Guardiola again?

That's not the point, the point is Moyes not going for him. And you can leave out the sarcasm.

 

[esmufc07]

That's not the point, the point is Moyes not going for him. And you can leave out the sarcasm.

We don't even know whether the article is true or not, Moyes may have not placed a bid for any number of reasons. Makes more sense to me that we'd been tracking him and were interested but once Guardiola made his interest known then we realised our chances of signing him were slim to none, and thus didn't make a bid. The article contradicts itself as you pointed out earlier

Ridiculous article.United followed Herrera for two years, they had concluded he was worth £20 made bid, United followed Thiago for three years, they do not want to pay the £20 because he didnt want to take someone else's word about a player he had seen infrequently..

 

[rcoobc]

Going around throwing money at midfielders would have been silly. Bidding 20M for Herrera isn't something to be ashamed of.

The smoking gun in all this seems to be Fellaini. Why did we wait? We paid an extra 4M on top of what we could have, and got him cup-tied for the League Cup. Why?

The officall, boring, obvious line seems to be that everything took a long time because of new manager syndrome. We were never in for Ozil, not going to pay for Herrera, the Thiago and Fabregas ships had already sailed. It was just a case of being slow.

Which in my opinion, must be nonsense. We must have been in for... Someone. Someone that meant Fellaini would be a waste of money. The "derisory" bids for Baines and Fellani make more sense if we had other targets. 20M bid for Baines and Fellaini. Rejected. 18M bid for Herrera. Rejected. X Bid for someone? Someone who isn't Fab or Thiago.

In the end we wasted money. But perhaps the galling thing was missing out on whoever.

 

[Spoony]

once Guardiola made his interest known then we realised our chances of signing him were slim to none, and thus didn't make a bid. The article contradicts itself as you pointed out earlier

Yeah I think you're right.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

We don't even know whether the article is true or not, Moyes may have not placed a bid for any number of reasons. Makes more sense to me that we'd been tracking him and were interested but once Guardiola made his interest known then we realised our chances of signing him were slim to none, and thus didn't make a bid. The article contradicts itself as you pointed out earlier

Yeah you're right, I tend to get carried away.This makes more sense and is what I initially believed.

 

[Varun]

If SAF thought he was good enough then he was good enough, but seriously how can anybody think that Thiago for 18m could be anything else than a good buy for a team thats desperately in need for a midfielder?

Again Thiago for 18m is more of a low risk transfer than afroman for 27.

Why do you think we werent in for him then? Or do you believe we were but he just lied about it after moving to Bayern?

Low risk woud have been to continue with the player United had "lined up", scouted intensively over three years and Fergie liked, who was available at a very very low fee.

Fellaini, is quite an unpopular signing who I'd say is more of a risk than Thiago. Unless it all boils down to that silly old 'PL proven' argument again.

Its Moyes who would sanction the signing. Whether or not we had scouted him previously or SAF wanted him wouldnt have meant much if it hadnt worked out (which I think there was no chance of). And yeah, I do think the PL proven argument has a basis because of the kind of players we targeted. Fabregas, Fellaini, Baines, all proven premierleague players. Herrera wasnt but see our reluctance to cough up the clause there.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

Why do you think we werent in for him then? Or do you believe we were but he just lied about it after moving to Bayern?

What I though is that we were in for him took to long to make the offer Pep came in and we backed out.

We should have probably offered the release clause as soon as there weren't enough games left for him to meet the conditions in his contract meaning the clause couldn't change, when would that have been May probably.

 

[simonhch]

What you had been suggesting indicated to me you didn't know how they operate that's all. I've never lived in Spain and I've closely followed Athletic for years. The thing I'm trying to put across is....when Bilbao obviously do not negotiate on their assets, why set your own valuation by offering £20 million when the club has no need or want to sell? If you want to talk to the player you pay the release clause and you go from there, otherwise there is just no point in bidding. Bilbao's valuation of Ander Herrera is all that matters in this case, not Manchester United's. Overpaying for players is a common trend in the current market, whether people like it or not. Bayern admitted it was crazy money for Javi Martinez but in the long term he is worth the investment.

I say again though. If Fellaini is worth £27.5 million, and Sami Khedira £34million of United's money.....why is Herrera not worth his buyout clause? It's in the middle of those two figures, and the ability of the player is arguably superior.

The last two players that Bilbao have sold for any real money were Del Horno and Martinez. They negotiated for one, they didn't for the other. The other two players of high repute to have left in recent times were Ezquerro (who ran his contract down) and Llorente. They got nothing from either. Their stubbornness to negotiate over Llorente was their prerogative and certainly strengthens the argument that they do not negotiate; but there was little merit to that particular decision as far as I can tell, as they lost out on 20M. Money which, despite their relatively healthy financial position, could surely have been sorely used for reinvestment, not least for their training and 'cantera' facilities which are undergoing a slow expansion. If Herrera decides to run down the remaining 3 years of his contract and leave for free, will they allow that to happen too?

Last year they sidelined Amorebieta and Llorente because of contract disputes. After having sold Martinez, this meant they flirted with relegation. Both of those players left for free at the end of the season. I don't think it was crazy at all from United to at least attempt to negotiate with Bilbao. Bilbao's valuation isn't all that matters, as United's refusal to meet it clearly demonstrates.

I don't argue with a lot of the logic in your post but there is a clear trend right now of lambasting the club for not paying the get out clause of a player who they don't value anywhere near the asking price. I suspect many such things have happened over the years that we never knew about. It was much better when the club kept everything very private. Hopefully we get back to this soon.

A couple of summers ago a friend of mine brought Joel Cantona by our facility and we spent the afternoon talking about everything United. He told me of a few players that United nearly signed while his brother was still playing there, and how the deals fell apart at the last minute over little things. Biggest one was Zidane. Le King never forgave Edwards for that.

 

[Varun]

What I though is that we were in for him took to long to make the offer Pep came in and we backed out.

We should have probably offered the release clause as soon as there weren't enough games left for him to meet the conditions in his contract meaning the clause couldn't change, when would that have been May probably.

We didnt stand a chance once Pep came in, that's correct but if we were interested, we had enough time to wrap it up. Looked like we werent to me as Thiago had no reason to lie once he'd signed for Munich. We've been very indecisive this window so it wont be surprising really.

 

[Amir]

It's easy to recognize Thiago's talents, but I can understand why it's not enough for a manager who wants to get to know a player better. A lot of players have talent but you don't just go out and sign them. It's doesn't matter that Sir Alex wanted him. Fergie had his failures in the transfer market and it's not his team and his responsibility now anyway. Moyes is the manager, he's in charge, he makes the choices, he should get the credit when it's done right and he'll be the one criticized if he gets it wrong.

My one disappointment, and I think it was reported in the Independent, that Moyes is claimed not have had any contact with our scouts until he officially started his job on July 1. I find that unbelievable. Obviously it was a case of doing it by the book, but still, you'd expect the new manager of any club to start doing everything he can straight away. And if he feels he can't, United should have given a few bob to Everton to release him from his contract early, it's not as if they needed him anymore once the final match was over.

 

[Chabon]

Daniel Taylor has obviously been briefed by United.

Briefed? That article was pretty much written by the club. Taylor may as well be on the payroll at this point.

 

[charleysurf]

A nothing article really, doesn't provide any insight it's just fairly subjective. Simply cannot believe the dumb section on Thiago. If Moyes was responsible in that way then he is without doubt a complete berk. I refuse to believe he does not know how good that player is.

The same questions remain,

Why did they attempt to buy Herrera under a week before the deadline, when anyone with a brain could see the deal would be complex?
Why did they only offer £20 million when they should know damn well Athletic Bilbao do not negotiate for their players?
Why is Ander Herrera not worth his buy-out clause but Sami Khedira is suddenly worth £34 million on deadline day?

People can try and spin United's summer in a positive way but anyone can see it's been a shocker, Fellaini doesn't change that.

Herrera was not a complex deal if Bilbao and United agreed a fee. It would have been complex to trigger the release clause. But United say they never went that path.
Where do you get the Khedira number from? Newspaper gossip?

 

[psychdelicblues]

Briefed? That article was pretty much written by Woodward. Taylor may as well be on the payroll at this point.

Fixed for accuracy.

 

[charleysurf]

It's easy to recognize Thiago's talents, but I can understand why it's not enough for a manager who wants to get to know a player better. A lot of players have talent but you don't just go out and sign them. It's doesn't matter that Sir Alex wanted him. Fergie had his failures in the transfer market and it's not his team and his responsibility now anyway. Moyes is the manager, he's in charge, he makes the choices, he should get the credit when it's done right and he'll be the one criticized if he gets it wrong.

My one disappointment, and I think it was reported in the Independent, that Moyes is claimed not have had any contact with our scouts until he officially started his job on July 1. I find that unbelievable. Obviously it was a case of doing it by the book, but still, you'd expect the new manager of any club to start doing everything he can straight away. And if he feels he can't, United should have given a few bob to Everton to release him from his contract early, it's not as if they needed him anymore once the final match was over.

Even if United went all out for Thiago, I just can't see them having beat off Bayern for him. The Pep factor, the brother of Thiagos agent for Gods sake.

 

[Triple.Threat]

The article shows a lot if areas where mishandling occured on DM and Woodward part, from passing on Thaigo, to putting all your eggs in one basket by chasing Fabregas who was never going to leave after Barca let Thaigo leave, and to add insults to injuries we kept on low-balling Fabregas bids and wasted our time which ultimately led to the most annoying point of overpaying for Fellaini by £4m.

 

[Sky1981]

You don't take Thiago at 20?

Even at FM that's atrocious

I mean, how risky can he be when the like of Arsenal are throwing 40 to get Suarez (even if they didn't land him, but they value that cnut at 40) and ended up paying 50M for Ozil

I don't know where Arsenal got the money, but put it simply buying both Fellaini and Thiago (or Hererra) is not astronomically expensive at this era, they're still young and can be sold again a few years from now. Even if they didn't become a world class superstar, I reckon we cna easily get 10-15M in a few years if we decided to sell.

This is a very pivotal year for Manchester United, whether we will continue our presence and influence, or flirt around with mediocrity, and I honestly think spending 50M on two midfielder for years to come is a risky investment.

With the likes of Chelsea, City, Arsenal, Spurs, and even Liverpool strenghtening themselves 3rd is not a given. All it takes for us to fall flat is a few bad game , bad reffing, and injury to carrick (finger crossed), not to mention carrick is not getting any younger, and it's not prudent to expect a 32 years old to play in 45+ games of high tempo.

All and all, I really think we should throw in some more players in the midfield, even if the said player is not 100% United mould (you can't expect us to always get the "build for united" type of player). Besides, I believe we do not expect another Rooney or Ferdinand, just enough that they play their game, getting paid while in the process, and hopefully adding trophies to the team while doing so.

 

[sglowrider]

Is Rooney (at 27) better than Ozil?

 

[NoLogo]

Herrera was not a complex deal if Bilbao and United agreed a fee. It would have been complex to trigger the release clause. But United say they never went that path.
Where do you get the Khedira number from? Newspaper gossip?

Afaik Khedira said that in an interview even though the bid has been a while ago and not like some mistakenly reported on deadline day.

 

[Sky1981]

Is Rooney (at 27) better than Ozil?

Depends, which Rooney?

The on fire? the fat? the injured? the want to be here? the want to move to chelsea? the bald or the hairy Rooney?

We'll never know what kind of Rooney we're dealt with every game

 

[Sky1981]

Afaik Khedira said that in an interview even though the bid has been a while ago and not like some mistakenly reported on deadline day.

Has it occurs to you that we won't possibly buy all Khedira, Thiago, Herrera, Fellaini, Cesc , that'll cost around 200M

So making all that offer at the same times looks very FM like, and I believe there's no such thing as "withdraw an accepted offer" in real life football. Which means, we're sporadically making offer and playing whoever bites the bait, but sadly the bait is insufficient

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Maybe Moyes was more concerned about this season (his first) more than probable future. In that view, Fellaini is a more stable bet than Thiago simple by being more experianced and already adapted to the league. Fellainin may not be a world beater, but he still adds strength to a title winning squad.

We cannot overrule to importance of winning the 1st PL post-Ferguson era to both the club, the manager and the fans.

On the other hand, it is not as Moyes has been dropped Thiago at the last moment and was required to make a immediate judgement call. I'm sure he'd have had briefings ever since he was confirmed (not actual take over date) which still would have given him couple of months to make a decision. When taking over a new team what else has more immediate priority than transfer season?

 

[Raees]

The 'background knowledge' thing is worrying if true, I'd rather it have been Moyes just didn't fancy him as a player.. to not know about a player like Thiago when 90% of posters here are aware of him is not a positive, I expect the manager of Manchester United to be very clued up on european football and know his shit regardless of the work of scouts... you can't imagine the likes of AvB, Jose, Wenger or even Rodgers not being aware of someone like Thiago and not knowing enough about him.

 

[Raees]

A lot of proven Premier League players fail. Young, Downing, Robbie Keane, Adam etc.

A lot of players come directly here and shine. Modric, Silva, Mata, Hazard, Oscar etc.

Moral of the story: We should sign quality players, not proven in EPL but limited players.

Proven Premier ship players.. urgghh nothing makes me blood boil more than that phrase. Add Sergio Aguero, Ronaldo, Thierry Henry, Zola, Bergkamp i.e. the majority of the greatest players to have ever played in the premiership have come straight from foreign leagues so for once and for all can we put that shitty myth to bed. I'd much rather sign a technically gifted player from abroad than an average joe which has hardly set the world alight at a club like Villa.

 

[The Man Himself]

Ok, this


is just silly.

It is not silly. If it would have been case like Cesc where player is openly denying wanting to move, the job is lot easier. We all know Rooney wanted a move and hence the convincing might have taken time. If we had bids from clubs outside country, we might not have wasted much resources and would have sold for right price.

This new found fad of calling everything club does silly, without knowing anything IS silly.

And this


is extremely annoying.

Again, it is not. Moyes is not supposed to be a puppet here. He has every right to study and choose his targets and if it takes some time, so be it. We are not a team which finished 6th-7th last year and are desperately trying to get back in top 4. We have a good set of squad which can challenge for trophies this year and side by side let Moyes work out targets which he thinks fit best in his plans. It is not you or me who picks team, moyes does. He is responsible for team and hence has every right to choose as he deems fit.

As a fan, judge him and club based on results after giving decent amount of time not based on hysterical mass opinions.

 

[NoLogo]

Has it occurs to you that we won't possibly buy all Khedira, Thiago, Herrera, Fellaini, Cesc , that'll cost around 200M

So making all that offer at the same times looks very FM like, and I believe there's no such thing as "withdraw an accepted offer" in real life football. Which means, we're sporadically making offer and playing whoever bites the bait, but sadly the bait is insufficient

Where did I say we should sign all of them? I just wrote that Khedira confirmed in an interview that we offered 40m € for him but got rejected by Real immediately.

 

[Sky1981]

Where did I say we should sign all of them? I just wrote that Khedira confirmed in an interview that we offered 40m € for him but got rejected by Real immediately.

exactly, we won't, but we bid for all of them

see my point?

 

[NoLogo]

exactly, we won't, but we bid for all of them

see my point?

No I'm sorry I still don't see any point.

We made bids for several midfielders at different places in time because we got rejected by the clubs of those players we first made bids for. Imo that's perfectly normal and doesn't involve us having to pull out of any deal.

 

[coolredwine]

People suggesting we should have gone all in for Thiago... what would have happened had he started crying after say 1 season to go back to Barcelona. From what I can see, Moyes generally wanted to play it safe. Hence he did not approach Thiago.

 

[Sky1981]

People suggesting we should have gone all in for Thiago... what would have happened had he started crying after say 1 season to go back to Barcelona. From what I can see, Moyes generally wanted to play it safe. Hence he did not approach Thiago.

and what makes you think Barcelona will get him for free?

 

[coolredwine]

and what makes you think Barcelona will get him for free?

I did not say Barca would get him for free.. The point was that a disgruntled player in the team. He already has 1 Wayne Rooney to tame, why add another one?

 

[Sky1981]

I did not say Barca would get him for free.. The point was that a disgruntled player in the team. He already has 1 Wayne Rooney to tame, why add another one?

By this rationale every player we bought can potentially cry to get back in a year?

so... we won't buy anyone from spain, south america?

That's abit rose tinted

Let's just say we miss thiago because pep got the upper hand in this, and let's not sugar coat the whole thing as if it's some kind of brilliant move by us

 

[coolredwine]

By this rationale every player we bought can potentially cry to get back in a year?

so... we won't buy anyone from spain, south america?

That's abit rose tinted

Let's just say we miss thiago because pep got the upper hand in this, and let's not sugar coat the whole thing as if it's some kind of brilliant move by us

1. I am not sugar coating it as a brilliant move. I am saying that maybe, MAYBE, Moyes just wanted to play it safe and bring in a player to shore up the defense (plus he has worked with Fellaini as well before).

2. It was Barcelona. Pique, Fabregas, Alba...Thiago? No thank you. I'd rather not have the club embroiled in a drama. Especially when there is one player who is more than enough as of now. I wouldn't really trust a Barcelona player, tbh.

 

[moses]

Tabloid criticism is true according to some of you while a balanced piece, (and this is balanced, it shows negatives too), us made up by the club? Some of you really are hysterical nonces.

 

[LR7]

People suggesting we should have gone all in for Thiago... what would have happened had he started crying after say 1 season to go back to Barcelona. From what I can see, Moyes generally wanted to play it safe. Hence he did not approach Thiago.

What a stupid excuse not to go for a player. It's something hypothetical that might never happen. We spent big money on DDG who might eventually cry to go back to Spain one day but he might not, he might actually give us years and years of great service helping us to in many things, and so might Thiago have. If you really think that's the reason Moyes didn't go in for him I guess you think we will not be buying young players from abroad for the foreseeable future then?. I've not been overly impressed by Moyes in this window but I'll give him more credit than to think this was his rationale for not going in for Thiago (although I'm not sure there is actually a valid excuse).

 

[Amir]

The 'background knowledge' thing is worrying if true, I'd rather it have been Moyes just didn't fancy him as a player.. to not know about a player like Thiago when 90% of posters here are aware of him is not a positive, I expect the manager of Manchester United to be very clued up on european football and know his shit regardless of the work of scouts... you can't imagine the likes of AvB, Jose, Wenger or even Rodgers not being aware of someone like Thiago and not knowing enough about him.

There's a difference between knowing a player (or even knowing him well enough to suggest we should sign him as fans) to having the knowledge about him that you want to have as a manager who invests millions into taking the player.

That is Moyes's way and we have to accept it. The summer is over anyway, it's gone. Hopefully the time leading to the next window will see Moyes far more clued up.

 

[LR7]

There's a difference between knowing a player (or even knowing him well enough to suggest we should sign him as fans) to having the knowledge about him that you want to have as a manager who invests millions into taking the player.

That is Moyes's way and we have to accept it. The summer is over anyway, it's gone. Hopefully the time leading to the next window will see Moyes far more clued up.

Our 3 years worth of scouting reports/videos etc should have been able to supplement whatever existing knowledge Moyes already had of Thiago. It's always been said that we are very thorough in that department.
Thiago was available for a relatively cheap price, compared to what players are going for in this window - it was an extremely low risk to take.

 

[Sarni]

Proven Premier ship players.. urgghh nothing makes me blood boil more than that phrase. Add Sergio Aguero, Ronaldo, Thierry Henry, Zola, Bergkamp i.e. the majority of the greatest players to have ever played in the premiership have come straight from foreign leagues so for once and for all can we put that shitty myth to bed. I'd much rather sign a technically gifted player from abroad than an average joe which has hardly set the world alight at a club like Villa.

People will use this phrase over and over, pretending that PL is some mythical super league that no other league could possibly ever match. It's as likely for a 'PL proven' player to fail at a big club as it is for someone coming from abroad, it's far more likely when that 'PL proven' players is someone in the Young mould and the other one is someone like Mata or Silva. It's a load of nonsense really.

 

[Sarni]

People suggesting we should have gone all in for Thiago... what would have happened had he started crying after say 1 season to go back to Barcelona. From what I can see, Moyes generally wanted to play it safe. Hence he did not approach Thiago.

What if Fellaini starts crying for Real Madrid in a year? What if he breaks a leg? What if aliens come to Earth and decide that Fellaini is the best suited subject for their medical examinations of human beings because of hair? What if, what if... You don't sign players based on what ifs, you sign them on the basis of what they can contribute to the side at the minute.

 

[Raees]

People will use this phrase over and over, pretending that PL is some mythical super league that no other league could possibly ever match. It's as likely for a 'PL proven' player to fail at a big club as it is for someone coming from abroad, it's far more likely when that 'PL proven' players is someone in the Young mould and the other one is someone like Mata or Silva. It's a load of nonsense really.

It's the Messi playing on a rainy night in Stoke syndrome... ffs if Mata can rack up as many assists/goals as he did for Chelsea, then am pretty sure Leo Messi who is 4 times the player can handle it in England. The only way the top english sides prevent him from scoring is packing out the defence like crazy and he also plays in a team which is quite predictable in attack, brilliant yes but predictable. Over a league season and say in a team like United.. he'd be fecking lethal.

 

[Sarni]

It's the Messi playing on a rainy night in Stoke syndrome... ffs if Mata can rack up as many assists/goals as he did for Chelsea, then am pretty sure Leo Messi who is 4 times the player can handle it in England. The only way the top english sides prevent him from scoring is packing out the defence like crazy and he also plays in a team which is quite predictable in attack, brilliant yes but predictable. Over a league season and say in a team like United.. he'd be fecking lethal.

No, the defending in PL is sublime to be fair. I'd say Messi could maybe score 15-20 goals in a season playing as the main main if he were lucky but he'd struggle against top class players like Chester, McShane, Gabiddon and Tomkins.