A Look at Goalkeeper Options and Replacing De Gea

[Care_de_Bobo]

Onana was so good with both feet and came out to claim crosses with real authority. De Gea doesn't do either of these and on top of that has been making costly mistakes in high pressure games for years. There's a reason he hasn't been in the Spain squad for years, he also choked for them in a major tournament.

The final straw for me was not being able to save a single penalty from 11 against Villareal and then missing his own. 7 goals for Liverpool from 8 shots on target also reflects really badly on him.

He makes some amazing looking saves sometimes, but mainly because his positioning is suspect in the first place. The golden glove is more down to Varane, Martinez, Casemiro and even Lindelof later in the season as opposed to our keeper.

 

[NLunited]

Goalkeeper is probably the easiest position on the pitch to use statistics as most goalkeeper actions are discrete, independent of teammates and movement around the pitch (I feel this is super important for outfield players) is less of an issue.

I’d love to be able to do something similar for other positions on the pitch, but I’m not confident that the freely available data would give us anything particularly useful, except in super obvious cases.

An example of that would be Bruno Guimaraes, whose profile on FBREF was incredible. He was in the 90th percentile for most passing, dribbling and creative stats, and the 80th percentile for most defensive statistics.

Watching the final yesterday, as well as many other games this season (especially our big away games), it feels to me that we lack running power, especially in midfield, as well as the ability to play in tight spaces so we get overrun. There aren’t any stats that quantify either of these.

Things like expected threat, possession normalised pressures, true tackles, number of sprints, average running speed, passes under pressure etc. would all be needed to be able to judge outfield players well in my view.

Actually I think gk is the hardest position to interpret and compare statistics, as the circumstances for each gk are so different.

The stats become skewed quite easily. If you don‘t believe me, compare the stats for two different competitions for the same gk.

 

[lex talionis]

You will seldom see a match that so blatantly demonstrates everything we're missing in the goalkeeping department as that one.

I think Onana's performance in particular is worth highlighting. A huge part of the reason why, in spite of their victory, City weren't able to dominate Inter in the way they do so many other sides was Onana's brilliant performance on the ball. He was able to play through that City press with such confidence, rather than just going long every time, and this helped prevent Inter from being subjected to an onslaught.

Goalkeepers' ball-playing ability is often talked about in the context of dominating games but Onana tonight showed just how much of an asset it can be to a side looking to prevent their opponents from dominating as well.

I’m on board with bringing in a substantially better keeper if one can be had, but yesterday’s CL is hardly evidence in support of the case for doing so. Let me get this out of the way to avoid confusion: Onana would be an upgrade on De Gea, as would Costa.

City beat us, with De Gea, 2-1. City beat Inter, Onana, 1-0.

Inter hardly bothered City’s back line and on the few chances they created, the botched it. We hardly bothered City’s back line. Both clubs lacked any real quality up front and both midfields got run over. Having a great keeper didn’t save Inter and us having a shite (allegedly) keeper wasn’t the reason Gundogan scored the goal of a lifetime or found himself with acres of space on a corner kick. City were comprehensively better than us and Inter, but even if Ederson is better than De Gea, Ederson was not the better of the two keepers last night, yet City won both cup finals.

 

[DJ_21]

We won’t pay the 65m Porto want for Costa. I’m pretty sure Liverpool payed similar or a bit more for Allison.

 

[croadyman]

We won’t pay the 65m Porto want for Costa. I’m pretty sure Liverpool payed similar or a bit more for Allison.

Well we are stupid then

 

[stw2022]

Does a keeper need to be that good?

 

[croadyman]

Does a keeper need to be that good?

Yeah they do now

 

[stw2022]

Yeah they do now

At what though? Decent shot stopper good with his feet seems to be what's in vogue

 

[bosnian_red]

Does a keeper need to be that good?

Doesn't need to be as good as Onana on the ball, can't be as bad as de Gea. Doesn't need to be as good as Courtois or Pope in the air, can't be as bad as De Gea. Doesn't need to be as good as peak de Gea with shot stopping, but can't make as many mistakes as current de Gea with it.

 

[croadyman]

Doesn't need to be as good as Onana on the ball, can't be as bad as de Gea. Doesn't need to be as good as Courtois or Pope in the air, can't be as bad as De Gea. Doesn't need to be as good as peak de Gea with shot stopping, but can't make as many mistakes as current de Gea with it.

Yeah now need to find a keeper who matches

 

[RedCoffee]

At what though? Decent shot stopper good with his feet seems to be what's in vogue

What's next?

Perhaps we'll see a move away from a keeper who's good with his feet to an outfield player who is a great shotstopper and good in the air. This would effectively give you an extra man on the pitch.

 

[Rocksy]

Didn’t ETH and Onana fall out? I think he’d be an excellent signing and probably cheaper than Costa. Inter owe United a bit as well, I think.

 

[RopersReturn]

Didn’t ETH and Onana fall out? I think he’d be an excellent signing and probably cheaper than Costa. Inter owe United a bit as well, I think.

Still reckon Costa would be the right choice imo. We also might want to at look hiring a new GK coach too.

 

[thomas porter]

Diogo Costa's passing definitely is a great fit for how eth wants to build from the back. I hope we can negotiate Porto down from the release clause and any deal in the 40-50m range would be a good deal imo.

 

[Devil You Know]

Does a keeper need to be that good?

Football used to be played a lot more at the attacking/defending ends of the pitch, so a 'keeper with great shot stopping was vital. Passing ability was a nice-to-have.

These days, the emphasis has shifted towards the middle third of the pitch, so a 'keeper with good passing ability is far more important. Amazing shot stopping ability is now the nice-to-have.

Same thing has happened with centre-backs and full-backs for the same reason. Attackers with pressing ability are also en vogue for what they provide in winning the ball back during the opposition's possession phase. Basically, everyone in the XI needs to be a midfielder nowadays.

 

[Cheimoon]

Didn’t ETH and Onana fall out? I think he’d be an excellent signing and probably cheaper than Costa. Inter owe United a bit as well, I think.

I don't think so. Onana was his starter until he messed up by taking his girlfriend's medication (or that's what I think he claimed) and got a fairly long suspension for using illegal substances. I do think there was an issue when he was supposed to be coming back into the squad, but I think it had to do with him angling for a transfer in a way Ajax didn't appreciate. That doesn't necessarily touch upon his personal relationship with Ten Hag though.

But someone like @Rapsel, @Terranova, or @BrilliantOrange would know better as Ajax fans.

 

[croadyman]

I don't think so. Onana was his starter until he messed up by taking his girlfriend's medication (or that's what I think he claimed) and got a fairly long suspension for using illegal substances. I do think there was an issue when he was supposed to be coming back into the squad, but I think it had to do with him angling for a transfer in a way Ajax didn't appreciate. That doesn't necessarily touch upon his personal relationship with Ten Hag though.

But someone like @Rapsel, @Terranova, or @BrilliantOrange would know better as Ajax fans.

Yeah we need to get their views on this

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

Assumin Costa is expensive it looks like Pau Lopez, Diouf and Casteels are the best options using the analysis. Question now is, which of them passes the eye test

 

[Longshanks]

I’m on board with bringing in a substantially better keeper if one can be had, but yesterday’s CL is hardly evidence in support of the case for doing so. Let me get this out of the way to avoid confusion: Onana would be an upgrade on De Gea, as would Costa.

City beat us, with De Gea, 2-1. City beat Inter, Onana, 1-0.

Inter hardly bothered City’s back line and on the few chances they created, the botched it. We hardly bothered City’s back line. Both clubs lacked any real quality up front and both midfields got run over. Having a great keeper didn’t save Inter and us having a shite (allegedly) keeper wasn’t the reason Gundogan scored the goal of a lifetime or found himself with acres of space on a corner kick. City were comprehensively better than us and Inter, but even if Ederson is better than De Gea, Ederson was not the better of the two keepers last night, yet City won both cup finals.

Inter created alot more chances than us, they created enough to win the game. Take our lucky penalty away we created basically nothing.

Both us and inter kept city largely at bay, we had to do it by defending deep and conceding possesion and territory much more than what Inter did. Inter were able to get on the ball more and keep city further back because they were able to keep the ball at the back under pressure and play through city's press on numerous occasions getting into dangerous posistions exposing city's back line.

We arguably have better outfield players than Inter all over the park but the huge difference in the goalkeeping departments means we got deservedly beaten in the final, Inter were very unlucky to lose.

 

[ifightdragons]

Inter created alot more chances than us, they created enough to win the game. Take our lucky penalty away we created basically nothing.

Both us and inter kept city largely at bay, we had to do it by defending deep and conceding possesion and territory much more than what Inter did. Inter were able to get on the ball more and keep city further back because they were able to keep the ball at the back under pressure and play through city's press on numerous occasions getting into dangerous posistions exposing city's back line.

We arguably have better outfield players than Inter all over the park but the huge difference in the goalkeeping departments means we got deservedly beaten in the final, Inter were very unlucky to lose.

Nailed it.

Most of our fans simply won't understand how much De Gea has held us back from evolving for years, until he has been replaced.

That Real Madrid transfer would have been a blessing in disguise had it gone through.

 

[Acquire Me]

DDG is a legend, but we need a modern keeper and will unfortunately suffer with him in the build up game starting with the keeper.

We need a player who can keep calm with the ball, make good long and short passes and obviously be a great keeper as well.

 

[Kostov]

Well we are stupid then

Do you think Diogo Costa has the same talent and ability? Or maybe potential to be as good as Allison?

 

[Dans]

Onana would be the one for me - Costa looks a little overrated to me.

 

[BrilliantOrange]

I don't think so. Onana was his starter until he messed up by taking his girlfriend's medication (or that's what I think he claimed) and got a fairly long suspension for using illegal substances. I do think there was an issue when he was supposed to be coming back into the squad, but I think it had to do with him angling for a transfer in a way Ajax didn't appreciate. That doesn't necessarily touch upon his personal relationship with Ten Hag though.

But someone like @Rapsel, @Terranova, or @BrilliantOrange would know better as Ajax fans.

I really dont recall that there were personal issues between Onana and Ten Hag at one point. Onana did definitely have issues with 'the club' Ajax, but to what extent Ten Hag was personally involved is hard to say, as Ten Hag never really spoke about it publically what I recall.

Onana was suspended for about a year at a point where he actually felt he wanted to leave for a bigger club and was already hinting for a transfer for some time. When he got supsended his contract was due soon after so it looked like he was going to leave on a free. Ajax wanted to renew his contract and felt like Onana (because Ajax supported him massively during his ban) had some kind of moral obligation to extend his contract for at least one year so Ajax would receive a (small) transfer fee for him. Onana however rejected all attempts which made him really really unpopular with the fans.

So his ben ended a couple month before his contract ended and Ten Hag decided to pay him again, though he had all the fans against him because of the contract situation. He then also was near his former level but the main issue for the fans was his attitude as his appeared like he didnt care about anything. During one game he was bood by the Ajax audience and afterwards he gave an interview that he didnt give a shit about it, see below. After this interview Ajax (Ten Hag? Overmars? Board?) decided not to play him anymore and he left for Inter on a free shortly after that.

 

[ifightdragons]

Do you think Diogo Costa has the same talent and ability? Or maybe potential to be as good as Allison?

If anything, his style is more similar to Ederson than Alisson.

And absolutely, yes. He is already as good, if not better, in certain aspects.

He just has to prove his worth in a big league like the PL. I see no reason why he wouldn't. He has that same steely focus and mentality as someone like Lisandro Martinez.

 

[Kostov]

If anything, his style is more similar to Ederson than Alisson.

And absolutely, yes. He is already as good, if not better, in certain aspects.

He just has to prove his worth in a big league like the PL. I see no reason why he wouldn't. He has that same steely focus and mentality as someone like Lisandro Martinez.

That's a bit worrying to be fair. I rate Alisson as much better than Ederson personally.

Regarding Costa, I've seen some games of him, but the one that most stands out to me, was his World Cup game in which he melted like an ice cream. Never have I been left "wow" with him, while he is being very highly regarded on here.

 

[ifightdragons]

That's a bit worrying to be fair. I rate Alisson as much better than Ederson personally.

Regarding Costa, I've seen some games of him, but the one that most stands out to me, was his World Cup game in which he melted like an ice cream. Never have I been left "wow" with him, while he is being very highly regarded on here.

Alisson is fantastic.

But if you can, I highly recommend watching full league games with Costa, and not just the WC matches. That Portugal side had massive issues and almost every single player underperformed in that tournament.

Ederson might not be as good a shot stopper as Alisson. But his ball playing and commanding of his area is still world class. And he is still a very good shot stopper. He is a big factor in why City have so much control at the back, and can push Stones into the midfield.

Alisson is probably the best goalkeeper in the world. Ederson isn't far behind, though.

If we got someone who is in the mould of Ederson, we would be very lucky.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Onana was so good with both feet and came out to claim crosses with real authority. De Gea doesn't do either of these and on top of that has been making costly mistakes in high pressure games for years. There's a reason he hasn't been in the Spain squad for years, he also choked for them in a major tournament.

The final straw for me was not being able to save a single penalty from 11 against Villareal and then missing his own. 7 goals for Liverpool from 8 shots on target also reflects really badly on him.

He makes some amazing looking saves sometimes, but mainly because his positioning is suspect in the first place. The golden glove is more down to Varane, Martinez, Casemiro and even Lindelof later in the season as opposed to our keeper.

“We don’t need a new goalkeeper because we kept more clean sheets than anyone”, dies at the first at point of interrogation.

It’s a cherry on top of a cake. If you have a cake.

 

[Kostov]

Alisson is fantastic.

But if you can, I highly recommend watching full league games with Costa, and not just the WC matches. That Portugal side had massive issues and almost every single player underperformed in that tournament.

Ederson might not be as good a shot stopper as Alisson. But his ball playing and commanding of his area is still world class. And he is still a very good shot stopper. He is a big factor in why City have so much control at the back, and can push Stones into the midfield.

Alisson is probably the best goalkeeper in the world. Ederson isn't far behind, though.

If we got someone who is in the mould of Ederson, we would be very lucky.

That's fair enough. If Costa can be as good as Ederson, I'd say it would be money well spent.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

@sifi36 Is it possible to display the stats for Onana and Pickford? Onanas been the trendy name recently and Pickford is the one we've been linked with. I'd especially like to see how Onana compares with Costa

 

[OleGunnar20]

I really dont recall that there were personal issues between Onana and Ten Hag at one point. Onana did definitely have issues with 'the club' Ajax, but to what extent Ten Hag was personally involved is hard to say, as Ten Hag never really spoke about it publically what I recall.

Onana was suspended for about a year at a point where he actually felt he wanted to leave for a bigger club and was already hinting for a transfer for some time. When he got supsended his contract was due soon after so it looked like he was going to leave on a free. Ajax wanted to renew his contract and felt like Onana (because Ajax supported him massively during his ban) had some kind of moral obligation to extend his contract for at least one year so Ajax would receive a (small) transfer fee for him. Onana however rejected all attempts which made him really really unpopular with the fans.

So his ben ended a couple month before his contract ended and Ten Hag decided to pay him again, though he had all the fans against him because of the contract situation. He then also was near his former level but the main issue for the fans was his attitude as his appeared like he didnt care about anything. During one game he was bood by the Ajax audience and afterwards he gave an interview that he didnt give a shit about it, see below. After this interview Ajax (Ten Hag? Overmars? Board?) decided not to play him anymore and he left for Inter on a free shortly after that.

Thanks for that. Sounds like a bit of a volatile character.

 

[Zed 101]

Was expecting somebody to have already posted but as they haven't.....

Paddy McGuiness.... seemed about as capable as DeGea and would be much cheaper

 

[Rapsel]

Yeah we need to get their views on this

He had a headache and wanted to take an aspirin. During the case both pill strips were shown as evidence and they looked very similar and it was ruled an honest mistake. For what it's worth regarding the falling out between ETH and Onana had to do with fitness levels. Nothing to do with the contract extension. Some people claimed he refused to sign a contract extension so he could leave on a free but there's also another story where Onana was willing to sign a one year extension but Ajax wanted him to sign for another two years. I guess we'll never know but as Ajax supporter for me it's water under the bridge and I wish him the best and would love to see him at United next season.

 

[sifi36]

@sifi36 Is it possible to display the stats for Onana and Pickford? Onanas been the trendy name recently and Pickford is the one we've been linked with. I'd especially like to see how Onana compares with Costa

Neither show up in either top 50, because they have severe weaknesses in more than one area. For Onana it's his shot-stopping and sweeping and for Pickford, both passing and crosses aren't great.

Onana's sample is small - 22 90s, as Eredivise stats aren't available through FBREF. His passing is outstanding, on-ball comfort suffers due to some bad touches (though he takes a lot more risks than most, so it's to be expected and is still miles higher than De Gea) but is still decent, as is his ability on crosses. He looks a terrible shot-stopper and sweeper, though again sample size limitations apply.

Pickford looks OK on most things, though his passing looks terrible. That said, those particular metrics are the ones that I find difficult to separate team style from, though I have a feeling (gut, not statistical) he's not as good with his feet as he's made out to be (a bit like Ramsdale).

 

[NLunited]

Football used to be played a lot more at the attacking/defending ends of the pitch, so a 'keeper with great shot stopping was vital. Passing ability was a nice-to-have.

These days, the emphasis has shifted towards the middle third of the pitch, so a 'keeper with good passing ability is far more important. Amazing shot stopping ability is now the nice-to-have.

Same thing has happened with centre-backs and full-backs for the same reason. Attackers with pressing ability are also en vogue for what they provide in winning the ball back during the opposition's possession phase. Basically, everyone in the XI needs to be a midfielder nowadays.

Shot stopping is and will ever remain the no.1 job of a gk. That will not change unless the rules of football change.

 

[NLunited]

@sifi36 Is it possible to display the stats for Onana and Pickford? Onanas been the trendy name recently and Pickford is the one we've been linked with. I'd especially like to see how Onana compares with Costa

We have not been linked with Pickford unless you take Talksport seriously.

 

[croadyman]

We have not been linked with Pickford unless you take Talksport seriously.

Yeah thankfully so far no one reliable

 

[Rapsel]

Neither show up in either top 50, because they have severe weaknesses in more than one area. For Onana it's his shot-stopping and sweeping and for Pickford, both passing and crosses aren't great.

Onana's sample is small - 22 90s, as Eredivise stats aren't available through FBREF. His passing is outstanding, on-ball comfort suffers due to some bad touches (though he takes a lot more risks than most, so it's to be expected and is still miles higher than De Gea) but is still decent, as is his ability on crosses. He looks a terrible shot-stopper and sweeper, though again sample size limitations apply.

Pickford looks OK on most things, though his passing looks terrible. That said, those particular metrics are the ones that I find difficult to separate team style from, though I have a feeling (gut, not statistical) he's not as good with his feet as he's made out to be (a bit like Ramsdale).

Really? This surprises me big time. in 2018/19 when a forward beat our defence I always thought: "Good luck getting past Onana. I have not had that faith in a GK since VDS.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

Neither show up in either top 50, because they have severe weaknesses in more than one area. For Onana it's his shot-stopping and sweeping and for Pickford, both passing and crosses aren't great.

Onana's sample is small - 22 90s, as Eredivise stats aren't available through FBREF. His passing is outstanding, on-ball comfort suffers due to some bad touches (though he takes a lot more risks than most, so it's to be expected and is still miles higher than De Gea) but is still decent, as is his ability on crosses. He looks a terrible shot-stopper and sweeper, though again sample size limitations apply.

Pickford looks OK on most things, though his passing looks terrible. That said, those particular metrics are the ones that I find difficult to separate team style from, though I have a feeling (gut, not statistical) he's not as good with his feet as he's made out to be (a bit like Ramsdale).

Excellent work. Thanks. Costa basically ticks all the boxes.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

We have not been linked with Pickford unless you take Talksport seriously.

I don't but us actually targeting Pickford doesn't seem out of character