Abortion

[Wibble]

What you described in a previous post in my exact feeling, a reluctant pro-choice opinion. It's a shame if it has to be done but the woman ultimately gets to decide

I don't think anyone is enthusiastic about abortion even if they are enthusiastic about the right to have an abortion.

I realise that wasn't your point and I'm not having a go at you. It just reminded me that many anti-abortionists conflate the two things.

 

[Carolina Red]

I don't think anyone is enthusiastic about abortion even if they are enthusiastic about the right to have an abortion.

I realise that wasn't your point and I'm not having a go at you. It just reminded me that many anti-abortionists conflate the two things.

A very solid point to be made there.

 

[carvajal]

The crux of the disagreement centers here. When is it “a life”.

We can consider life as "the period from birth to death", according to that I imagine that everything is valid until the baby leaves the woman's body, or until the doctor gives the cheek and starts crying
or "the quality that distinguishes a vital and functional being from a dead body" "an organismic state characterized by capacity for metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction"
A fetus of 28 weeks that is thrown away has eyes, brain and their vital functions ready to start working, the only thing that is missing is the direct contact with the outside world.
In any case, this debate is very extreme, where the points of view are usually very confronted

 

[Carolina Red]

A fetus of 28 weeks that is thrown away has eyes, brain and their vital functions ready to start working, the only thing that is missing is the direct contact with the outside world

What does it have at 14 weeks?

It seems that your main concern lies with late term abortions. Every number you’ve mentioned has been over 25 weeks.

 

[carvajal]

What does it have at 14 weeks?

It seems that your main concern lies with late term abortions. Every number you’ve mentioned has been over 25 weeks.

Not at all but I feel especially sad in those cases, perhaps because the body is more recognizable, and I feel that we are robbing someone many years of life. I also mentioned that we can consider the life from the moment the heart starts working (I do, or even before that moment)

 

[Carolina Red]

Not at all but I feel especially sad in those cases, perhaps because the body is more recognizable, and I feel that we are robbing someone many years of life. I also mentioned that we can consider the life from the moment the heart starts working (I do, or even before that moment)

Interestingly enough, looking at the other end of the spectrum, death is when your brain stops... not your heart.

The brain structures for conscious awareness don’t develop until weeks 29-30 of a pregnancy.

 

[Charlie Foley]

Interestingly enough, looking at the other end of the spectrum, death is when your brain stops... not your heart.

The brain structures for conscious awareness don’t develop until weeks 29-30 of a pregnancy.

I was born (well, c-section) at 25 weeks. This stat is really interesting and a bit mad. What was baby me aware of/experiencing those first few weeks. I'll never know!!

 

[Carolina Red]

I was born (well, c-section) at 25 weeks. This stat is really interesting and a bit mad. What was baby me aware of/experiencing those first few weeks. I'll never know!!

You weren’t aware of anything. Your body was operating on reflex.

 

[carvajal]

Interestingly enough, looking at the other end of the spectrum, death is when your brain stops... not your heart.

The brain structures for conscious awareness don’t develop until weeks 29-30 of a pregnancy.

for me, life ends when the body surrenders and the heart stops. The thing about the weeks is what I commented before. An artificial border.It is to deliberately stop a living being willing to grow. Today we can,the next week we can't.
Reduce our humanity to a question of numbers

 

[Carolina Red]

for me, life ends when the body surrenders and the heart stops. The thing about the weeks is what I commented before. An artificial border.It is to deliberately stop a living being willing to grow. Today we can,the next week we can't.
Reduce our humanity to a question of numbers

Your life doesn’t end based on your heart though.

Cardiac arrest isn’t death. Otherwise we wouldn’t have AEDs or learn CPR.

Prolonged cardiac arrest can eventually lead to your brain ceasing to function because it is starved of oxygen. That is when you die.

 

[carvajal]

Your life doesn’t end based on your heart though.

Cardiac arrest isn’t death. Otherwise we wouldn’t have AEDs or learn CPR.

Prolonged cardiac arrest can eventually lead to your brain ceasing to function because it is starved of oxygen. That is when you die.

You are beating around the bush .
In any case, I understand that for you, life begins just when the brain is sufficiently developed to produce some activity,the conscious awareness.Week 29?

 

[Carolina Red]

You are beating around the bush .
In any case, I understand that for you, life begins just when the brain is sufficiently developed to produce some activity,the conscious awareness.Week 29?

I don’t see how using the medical profession’s definition of when death happens to look at when life happens is beating around the bush.

I personally have no problem with the current abortion cut of in, for instance the UK, which is 24 weeks. It gives wiggle room for brain development, I think the ability for the brain to acknowledge sound is at 26 weeks, and is positioned well in terms of the viability argument as well.

 

[Ødegaard]

for me, life ends when the body surrenders and the heart stops. The thing about the weeks is what I commented before. An artificial border.It is to deliberately stop a living being willing to grow. Today we can,the next week we can't.
Reduce our humanity to a question of numbers

This is just wrong.
I've lived with a body that didn't have a heart pumping and i can assure you my body had given up.

Life ends when the brain no longer functions & cannot return to a state of function.
Clinical death is what you are thinking of, and it's not the same as the end of life.

That over with:
I still find the debate you all are having interesting as I've not come to any conclusion on it myself (for what I believe), although I'm currently of the mind that life starts when the brain is functioning.

 

[Hitchez]

 

[Penna]

I don’t see how using the medical profession’s definition of when death happens to look at when life happens is beating around the bush.

I personally have no problem with the current abortion cut of in, for instance the UK, which is 24 weeks. It gives wiggle room for brain development, I think the ability for the brain to acknowledge sound is at 26 weeks, and is positioned well in terms of the viability argument as well.

I used to work on NICU with tiny pre-term babies. Their reactions at 24 weeks of life to pain and discomfort were just the same as those of a full-term baby who's reached 38-40 weeks.

 

[Ødegaard]

I used to work on NICU with tiny pre-term babies. Their reactions at 24 weeks of life to pain and discomfort were just the same as those of a full-term baby who's reached 38-40 weeks.

Well that is saddening.
When is pain not a issue, do you know?

 

[carvajal]

I don’t see how using the medical profession’s definition of when death happens to look at when life happens is beating around the bush.

I personally have no problem with the current abortion cut of in, for instance the UK, which is 24 weeks. It gives wiggle room for brain development, I think the ability for the brain to acknowledge sound is at 26 weeks, and is positioned well in terms of the viability argument as well.

I see it differently, not so scientific, without twisting to the exact moment to justify the act in question.
I can't understand that such a serious issue is reduced to technical concepts,based purely in a medical point of view, looking for a scientific explanation to justify a failed life.
A life banalized in that way, he/she knows a sound,then lives,if not we are still in time to kill.

 

[Carolina Red]

I used to work on NICU with tiny pre-term babies. Their reactions at 24 weeks of life to pain and discomfort were just the same as those of a full-term baby who's reached 38-40 weeks.

Reflex reaction and conscious reaction look the same externally but cognitively are not the same.

The neural infrastructure for converting sensory information into conscious awareness simply doesn’t exist at that point, despite the reflex action.

Edit: @Ødegaard

Edit 2: it is essentially the same as what is seen in comatose or vegetative state adults. They lack conscious awareness, but base reflexes still exist, some of which mimic conscious movements.

These people can legally be removed from life support through the actions of family members.

 

[Penna]

Well that is saddening.
When is pain not a issue, do you know?

I don't know, S. We can't actually know what those babies feel, whether it's a reflex action or whatever.

 

[Florida Man]

Arguing in favor of pro-life is such a 1st world problem if I've ever seen one. We really need more abortion. Population is increasing too fast and is doing so in the countries that need the population growth the least. Because where are the highest rates of having several or more kids occurring? Poorer countries. You know, the ones where all the migrants come from. Competition for resources is only going to get more heated and more difficult. Kids who are born into an environment to parents who are not willing, not together, too young, too old, or just not ready to parent are already going to be disenfranchised and have a steeper hill to climb to make it on their own. And there is no damn place on Earth where pro-lifers are lined up to adopt all these kids. But you will see those same pro-lifers taking up space on campuses or city blocks to yell at people for sinning. If you're so concerned for life, consider the knock on effects of overpopulation, with climate change, immigration, resource scarcity, and so on.

 

[unchanged_lineup]

then you justify the whole problem of abortion based on the health of the mother, even assuming it is a smooth pregnancy.
Since I do not feel like having this baby, we're going to throw it away in his/her 26 weeks and then we signed on a paper that there was an indirect risk of "x"

Feckin hell man. Have a read of even a few of these stories and get away from your insulting notion of "do not feel like having this baby".

https://m.facebook.com/InHerIrishShoes/

As was discussed at length during our referendum, the idea that anyone takes abortion lightly is so insulting and assumes so badly of women.

 

[jungledrums]

Utter generalising nonsense and you know it. Not everyone opposing abortion is a right-wing religious idiot and you know it. There is a lot to be said for an anti-abortion movement that is less religious and more progressive and focuses on human rights, science and even feminism.

It is only through your bizarrely-concocted narrative (that men pressure women into abortions, or something) that one could possibly view banning abortions as progressive. Stripping all women of the right to abort because of the possibility of some isolated occurrence wherein a 'third-party' may pressure a woman into aborting is nonsensical. Even disregarding sexual assault etc as a reason for abortion, if a woman simply does not desire a child, how can you deny her the right to abort (assuming it is done through the proper avenues, within the allowed time-frame), merely based upon your apparent desire to see a few cells enter the world? We have enough humans populating the earth, frankly. Surely it's a more 'virtuous' decision to abort a child if one cannot properly provide for them. No, though - you'd apparently rather doom a child to a (potentially) sub-par life, and the poor mother to a life governed entirely by her child, than allow for abortion, and the ability for the woman to wait a few years and THEN have kids, when she may ideally have the means to adequately provide for her child.

I cannot wrap my head around anyone vehemently opposing it. It is the definition of archaic.

 

[Cascarino]

Interestingly enough, looking at the other end of the spectrum, death is when your brain stops... not your heart.

The brain structures for conscious awareness don’t develop until weeks 29-30 of a pregnancy.

You’ve made some really good points in this thread, I’m going to copy them irl

 

[Skåre Willoch]

I had no idea that so many (non religious) people are against a womans right to abort a pregnancy. I mean, come on. How can you still be against a womans right to abortion in this day and age?
I agree that you shouldn't be able to abort after a certain point in the pregnancy, but banning it outright is medieval (and borderline evil) imho.

 

[adexkola]

It is only through your bizarrely-concocted narrative (that men pressure women into abortions, or something) that one could possibly view banning abortions as progressive. Stripping all women of the right to abort because of the possibility of some isolated occurrence wherein a 'third-party' may pressure a woman into aborting is nonsensical. Even disregarding sexual assault etc as a reason for abortion, if a woman simply does not desire a child, how can you deny her the right to abort (assuming it is done through the proper avenues, within the allowed time-frame), merely based upon your apparent desire to see a few cells enter the world? We have enough humans populating the earth, frankly. Surely it's a more 'virtuous' decision to abort a child if one cannot properly provide for them. No, though - you'd apparently rather doom a child to a (potentially) sub-par life, and the poor mother to a life governed entirely by her child, than allow for abortion, and the ability for the woman to wait a few years and THEN have kids, when she may ideally have the means to adequately provide for her child.

I cannot wrap my head around anyone vehemently opposing it. It is the definition of archaic.

You should try harder then. The stance of the pro-lifers movement may be deemed extreme, but it's completely understandable.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Interestingly enough, looking at the other end of the spectrum, death is when your brain stops... not your heart.

The brain structures for conscious awareness don’t develop until weeks 29-30 of a pregnancy.

You think?!

What about people declared brain dead, yet kept on life support for organ harvesting?

I’m being pedantic here - and am on your side of the debate - but absence of a pulse will always be a more definitive marker of death than absence of brain activity.

 

[Carolina Red]

You think?!

What about people declared brain dead, yet kept on life support for organ harvesting?

I’m being pedantic here - and am on your side of the debate - but absence of a pulse will always be a more definitive marker of death than absence of brain activity.

Being pedantic, but... that’s simply incorrect.

If I’m walking down the street and see you collapse, run over, check for breathing and for a pulse, and don’t find either, I’m not going to just throw my hands up and say, “well folks, he’s dead!”... because you’re not dead yet. You’re just in cardiac arrest.

Folks who have a heart transplant surgery aren’t dead either in the time in which they don’t physically have a heart in their body. Their brain still functions because a machine is pumping oxygen rich blood through it.

People who are brain dead and on life support are artificially animated. They’re not actually alive, and in that instance the term “life support” is misleading. They’re a dead person connected to a ventilator.

 

[Carolina Red]

You’ve made some really good points in this thread, I’m going to copy them irl

Thank you!

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Being pedantic, but... that’s simply incorrect.

If I’m walking down the street and see you collapse, run over, check for breathing and for a pulse, and don’t find either, I’m not going to just throw my hands up and say, “well folks, he’s dead!”... because you’re not dead yet. You’re just in cardiac arrest.

Folks who have a heart transplant surgery aren’t dead either in the time in which they don’t physically have a heart in their body. Their brain still functions because a machine is pumping oxygen rich blood through it.

People who are brain dead and on life support are artificially animated. They’re not actually alive, and in that instance the term “life support” is misleading. They’re a dead person connected to a ventilator.

Dude, I've certified death. Believe me, absence of a heart-beat (palpated via the carotid and listened for with a stethoscope) is the most important sign you look for.

You also look for signs of brain death (no response to painful stimuli, fixed pupils etc) but they are less definitive, as people can live on for a while without any cortical activity. In fact, not all irreversibly brain-damaged patients being kept alive for organ harvesting need life support, sometimes they have enough brainstem activity to keep their heart/lungs going even though their cortex gave up the ghost a while ago.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

A more relevant example to this thread would be an anencephalic baby. In countries without abortion, women are likely to end up forced to take these pregnancies to term. They are - to all intents and purposes - born without any brain at all but they can live for some time after being born. Their heart beats, they breathe, they can even breast-feed. They're absolutely not stillborn but they were never conscious or capable of cognition at any point. It's an awful fecking tragedy but a good example that "life" isn't defined by possessing the brain structures needed for conscious awareness.

 

[Carolina Red]

Dude, I've certified death. Believe me, absence of a heart-beat (palpated via the carotid and listened for with a stethoscope) is the most important sign you look for.

You also look for signs of brain death (no response to painful stimuli, fixed pupils etc) but they are less definitive, as people can live on for a while without any cortical activity. In fact, not all irreversibly brain-damaged patients being kept alive for organ harvesting need life support, sometimes they have enough brainstem activity to keep their heart/lungs going even though their cortex gave up the ghost a while ago.

You know as well as I do that you’re checking to see if the brain is receiving oxygenated blood after a prolonged period of cardiac arrest.

My wife can’t run a brain scan in the middle of running a code on a patient in the ICU... what she can do though is determine that after a half our the heart still isn’t beating, the respiratory reflex is absent, and both are irreversible, meaning the brain is going to be deprived of oxygen and will die.

 

[jungledrums]

You should try harder then. The stance of the pro-lifers movement may be deemed extreme, but it's completely understandable.

Don’t be deliberately obtuse, you know what I meant. I understand the stance, I just do not accept that it is adequate justification for the denial of what is currently a human right.

 

[ivaldo]

I don’t see how using the medical profession’s definition of when death happens to look at when life happens is beating around the bush.

I personally have no problem with the current abortion cut of in, for instance the UK, which is 24 weeks. It gives wiggle room for brain development, I think the ability for the brain to acknowledge sound is at 26 weeks, and is positioned well in terms of the viability argument as well.

This.

Otherwise, would wanking be considered mass murder?

 

[Carolina Red]

A more relevant example to this thread would be an anencephalic baby. In countries without abortion, women are likely to end up forced to take these pregnancies to term. They are - to all intents and purposes - born without any brain at all but they can live for some time after being born. Their heart beats, they breathe, they can even breast-feed. They're absolutely not stillborn but they were never conscious or capable of cognition at any point. It's an awful fecking tragedy but a good example that "life" isn't defined by possessing the brain structures needed for conscious awareness.

The medical field has tried for decades to get lawmakers to recognize that anencephalic babies are not living.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

You know as well as I do that you’re checking to see if the brain is receiving oxygenated blood after a prolonged period of cardiac arrest.

My wife can’t run a brain scan in the middle of running a code on a patient in the ICU... what she can do though is determine that after a half our the heart still isn’t beating, the respiratory reflex is absent, and both are irreversible, meaning the brain is going to be deprived of oxygen and will die.

Semantics. The fact remains that someone can have a cortex made out of scrambled egg and still not be dead, providing the heart is pumping oxygenated blood around the body. And this is critical for all the organs in the body, not just the brain. Your wife can explain to you why the machines that can help this process are commonly called “life support” and not “death support”.

 

[Jippy]

A more relevant example to this thread would be an anencephalic baby. In countries without abortion, women are likely to end up forced to take these pregnancies to term. They are - to all intents and purposes - born without any brain at all but they can live for some time after being born. Their heart beats, they breathe, they can even breast-feed. They're absolutely not stillborn but they were never conscious or capable of cognition at any point. It's an awful fecking tragedy but a good example that "life" isn't defined by possessing the brain structures needed for conscious awareness.

Kinda wish I didn't google that, the pic is horrible.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Another (less gruesome) example would be the poor kid at the centre of the recent GOSH scandal. His brain basically turned to mush but he lived on for ages, initially on full life support; then for 24 hours or so, off it. He was only declared dead when his heart stopped beating.

 

[Carolina Red]

Semantics. The fact remains that someone can have a cortex made out of scrambled egg and still not be dead, providing the heart is pumping oxygenated blood around the body. Your wife can explain to you why the machines that can take over these processes are commonly called “life support” and not “death support”.

Literally semantics.

You are your brain. If your brain is gone, you are gone.

Cardiopulmonary death leads to brain death. The final state is brain death. That’s when you’re gone.

Also, I’ve now spoken to my wife and another of her nursing colleagues. I can go through the entire ICU if you’d like. I’ve got a feeling I’m going to get the same answers.

 

[Smores]

I had no idea that so many (non religious) people are against a womans right to abort a pregnancy. I mean, come on. How can you still be against a womans right to abortion in this day and age?
I agree that you shouldn't be able to abort after a certain point in the pregnancy, but banning it outright is medieval (and borderline evil) imho.

I'm sure these same people take on as much responsibility to protect poor starving children because not doing so would be a decision to end a life.

They wouldn't only care about life in the womb that would be ludicrous.

 

[Ødegaard]

Being pedantic, but... that’s simply incorrect.

If I’m walking down the street and see you collapse, run over, check for breathing and for a pulse, and don’t find either, I’m not going to just throw my hands up and say, “well folks, he’s dead!”... because you’re not dead yet. You’re just in cardiac arrest.

Folks who have a heart transplant surgery aren’t dead either in the time in which they don’t physically have a heart in their body. Their brain still functions because a machine is pumping oxygen rich blood through it.

People who are brain dead and on life support are artificially animated. They’re not actually alive, and in that instance the term “life support” is misleading. They’re a dead person connected to a ventilator.

This. So much this.
The term brain dead has so many thinking of a vegative state (not Pogue mind, just a general issue), rather than what it is - death because of irreversible damage to the brain that means the 'person' within the body has ceased to exist.

So many people are confused about the term to the point where doctors have to reaffirm that their loved ones are indeed dead because people hold on to death not being the first word to come out. And some again refuse to donate organs because they refuse to believe it...

People like myself who say we've been dead talk about clinically being dead. We wouldn't exist to talk about it if we were brain dead.