Forcing that child to grow up alone, unloved, unhappy, physically and mentally ill??
Abortion
- Thread starter Pagh Wraith
- Start date
No, only a human.
However it is going be very difficult to scientifically determine what is a person.
Edit. Or when.
Some states have laws that require someone considering abortion, to view ultrasound of the fetus, or listen to it's heartbeat, before the procedure is done, in the hope that the additional information is enough to steer the woman towards keeping the child. Wondering what thoughts of the Caf are on this.
It’s ridiculous and is an attempt to traumatize the woman.
Hard to comment on things which happen in the States when you are not aware of what the whole procedure is and tbh a whole lot of things that happen in the US is at the very least confusing.
Should have provided more context. While abortion has been legalized by the Supreme Court (for now) which covers the entire country, some states have been more militant than others at practically outlawing abortion by putting so many restrictions around the practice that a large amount of women can't undergo the procedure without going through a lot of hoops.
Good point, well made.
A shitty thing to do IMO.
It's difficult to guess at the motives or political direction this comes from, you have to hope that counselling is involved before this takes place.
You have to wonder if it is an attempt to put these women off enduring the procedure again or future women.
I have no idea on numbers and statistics.
It most certainly is.
The bold confuses me a bit because you then talk about dignity. I would think dignity is a quality that emerges after a certain level of cognitive development no? its a fairly human quality I think too, as in a cockroach cannot be dignified.
To speak to that from personal experience, I remember my father saying very strongly that he did not want to be kept alive "as a vegetable". He absolutely did not want his body to live the 'undignified' existence of being kept alive by machines while his mind was not conscious. I know there is some grey here with people in different types of comas but I leave that to medical professionals.
To expand, another reason I prefer looking at consciousness or some equivalent of brain/nervous system is because it provides a consistent framework that we can also apply to things like animal cruelty and in the future (maybe near or maybe far) answering questions about when/if artificial intelligences should begin to be granted equivalent rights to humans.
It's disgusting.
Sounds like emotional blackmail on what can already be an incredibly difficult decision to make.
Here in Ireland, one of the pro-life groups has taken to standing outside maternity hospitals with huge posters of foetuses. These are places where, among other things, women suffering miscarriages go.
These people couldn't care less about women.
These people couldn't care less about women.
It would be interesting to see the rules there are in various country.
In Germany abortion is illegal and could be punished with prison up to 3 years.
Exeption are the first 12 weeks in which it can be made by a doctor after a consultation with special agencies and a three-day-waiting period (the decision is that of the woman) or when the life or health of the women are in danger until birth.
I can live with that even if I think that the 12 week-period is very short.
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I do not think that you can see the topic of abortion without the social component and without looking at the societies we live in. Being a single mother is the biggest risk for poverty - and that influences the chances for the kid later on, too.
If you want too have less abortions you have to improve the situations for single mothers and families (+sex education and birth control).
In Germany abortion is illegal and could be punished with prison up to 3 years.
Exeption are the first 12 weeks in which it can be made by a doctor after a consultation with special agencies and a three-day-waiting period (the decision is that of the woman) or when the life or health of the women are in danger until birth.
I can live with that even if I think that the 12 week-period is very short.
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I do not think that you can see the topic of abortion without the social component and without looking at the societies we live in. Being a single mother is the biggest risk for poverty - and that influences the chances for the kid later on, too.
If you want too have less abortions you have to improve the situations for single mothers and families (+sex education and birth control).
That's a very specific scenario and my example intentionally wasn't the life of a non-aborted child. It's ridiculous to suggest anti-abortionists are therefore responsible for their life via their morals.
My point was more that these people only care about the importance of life when they have no responsibility to it. When thats the case the moral argument is nonsense unless you're female and in a position to make that choice.
Preventing a "childs" death through legislation or charitable action is still preventing a child's death, if you care so much about one but not then other then the variable is personal impact and that says a lot.
Im not saying what youve said isnt true. Of course different jurisdictions will have different laws that much is obvious. But in order to convict someone of murder there a several legal documents that need to be presented as evidence, a death certifiicate and a coronors report stating the cause of death are two examples, how else would you prove the charge?. It is impossible to have a death certificate without a birth certificate. Any good lawyer would easily find precedence to beat a charge like that.
Yeah, I should have said homicide (as i did for the rest of the post I hope) for california, not murder.
Im a little confused, abortion is legal in California. Are you saying medical professionals that perform abortions can be prosecuted for homicide? Or just the car crash example?
I know this has little to do with abortion, but the rhetoric about euthanasia is largely the same from a conservative Christian stand point. It's trying to paint pro choice or pro Euthanasia people as evil baby (elderly) killers.
I found this absolute gem from Rick Santorum about my country that paints a great picture of what I mean: “In the Netherlands, people wear different bracelets if they are elderly. And the bracelet is: ‘Do not euthanize me.’ Because they have voluntary euthanasia in the Netherlands but half of the people who are euthanized — ten percent of all deaths in the Netherlands — half of those people are enthanized involuntarily at hospitals because they are older and sick. And so elderly people in the Netherlands don’t go to the hospital. They go to another country, because they are afraid, because of budget purposes, they will not come out of that hospital if they go in there with sickness.”
For anyone still on the fence, this is obviously not true.
Personally I can see merit in both sides of the argument of abortion. On one side, if you strongly believe a fetus is a full human being and should be treated like one, you are obviously very strongly opposed to abortion, since for you, it's basically murdering in human being. On the other side, if you strongly believe a fetus in that stadium isn't much more than a unsentient (that's not a word, sorry) cluster of cells, you are obviously very strongly in favor of letting the woman make a choice.
Personally I think we should let science decide, but neither side should be calling the other side murderours are anti women's rights imho. This is a classic case of both sides of the argument truly believing they're the nobel side.
I found this absolute gem from Rick Santorum about my country that paints a great picture of what I mean: “In the Netherlands, people wear different bracelets if they are elderly. And the bracelet is: ‘Do not euthanize me.’ Because they have voluntary euthanasia in the Netherlands but half of the people who are euthanized — ten percent of all deaths in the Netherlands — half of those people are enthanized involuntarily at hospitals because they are older and sick. And so elderly people in the Netherlands don’t go to the hospital. They go to another country, because they are afraid, because of budget purposes, they will not come out of that hospital if they go in there with sickness.”
For anyone still on the fence, this is obviously not true.
Personally I can see merit in both sides of the argument of abortion. On one side, if you strongly believe a fetus is a full human being and should be treated like one, you are obviously very strongly opposed to abortion, since for you, it's basically murdering in human being. On the other side, if you strongly believe a fetus in that stadium isn't much more than a unsentient (that's not a word, sorry) cluster of cells, you are obviously very strongly in favor of letting the woman make a choice.
Personally I think we should let science decide, but neither side should be calling the other side murderours are anti women's rights imho. This is a classic case of both sides of the argument truly believing they're the nobel side.
No because the crime of homicide involves an unlawful killing. Abortion is legal as you said.
The law is there really to protect women from third parties . So the car crash example with a reckless driver. Or a man beating his pregnant wife, if that's not too grim an example.
Sorry, I realise I may have been really unclear in a few things I said.
After over 20 hours in session, the Argentinian deputys approved free abortion*. Now is up to the senators to approve.
This would be great even for the Chileans. Only posh girls can pay trips to USA to abort, so a trip to Argentina will make it so much affordable for general population.
* Free of charge, and no questions asked, as long as the fetus is no more than 14 weeks old.
This would be great even for the Chileans. Only posh girls can pay trips to USA to abort, so a trip to Argentina will make it so much affordable for general population.
* Free of charge, and no questions asked, as long as the fetus is no more than 14 weeks old.
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The right loves to use bullshit like that.
You should see the propaganda put out by Fox News about the “death panels” European healthcare systems have.
What is funny is that political parties that are "pro-life" and they vote against abortion, they forbid people from LGTB, to adopt even if the kid would have much better life (and might lead to less abortions as there is more demand), they prefer that people dies in the mediterranean sea before they can come to their country, not caring if some poeple are different from other religion and a large etc of not caring of other people. But hey, a bunch of cells without conscience must be saved. Even if it might ruin the life of a woman and the future kid
It isn't about nobility. It is about allowing women to decide what they do with their own bodies in a secular society.
If religious people don't want abortions then don't have one. Don't push your religion on others and demand that your religion decides what others are allowed to do.
Ironically many of the Christians who are strongly anti-abortion and believe religious based law is a good thing are also the first to go red faced in angry opposition as soon as the Daily Mail pretends that someone is trying to get Sharia Law made official in Kent.
Perhaps anti-abortion is a better term
Woman 'humiliated' by Walgreens over drugs to end pregnancy
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44591528
This is so much bullshit.
I know a doctor who would refuse to perform an abortion procedure. Not uncommon.
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In the UK, there is no obligation to actually perform the procedure or prescribe the meds (I believe unless it is for life saving circumstances) but you have an obligation to refer onto a colleague who is willing to do it. Refusal to do that would likely be met with being struck off the medical register.
The above story is horrific.
This thread on Reddit is an insane read, holy shit.
https://www.reddit.com/r/askaconser...hose_opposed_to_abortion_if_your_10_year_old/
https://www.reddit.com/r/askaconser...hose_opposed_to_abortion_if_your_10_year_old/
This is how young kids end up killing themselves.
Threads with hypothetical decisions are a bit pointless. It's like that thing about pressing a button and you get rich and some random person dies. I doubt people give honest answers when they are not facing the consequences of their choices.
I have no doubt that most anti-abortion types would commit abortion themselves if convenient, let alone in an extreme situation like the one described in reddit.
I have no doubt that most anti-abortion types would commit abortion themselves if convenient, let alone in an extreme situation like the one described in reddit.
You think? Holy feck, I'm actually still baffled by the things I've read on that thread. It's a whole other way of thinking.
Thing is I don't think they ordinarily think on those terms, they're being pushed into it by an extreme but hypothetical scenario. So they only have two options, which is either admitting their conviction - "abortion is murder, murder is wrong" - is not absolute (and lose the "debate"), or to stand by it, which in the aforementioned scenario makes them seem baffling.
In reality, I think most people are pragmatic when they have to put their money where their mouth is, hence my conviction. It's very easy to look magnanimous (and in their minds those people are looking noble by sticking to their principles) when there isn't really any choice to be made. If it were their kids most of them would sing a different tune.
https://hummusforthought.com/2018/12/23/from-isis-to-the-abortion-wars-america-we-need-to-talk/
I struggled for a while to think about where exactly this article should go. Realistically, it covers such a broad range of topics. It could have gone in here, in the ISIS thread, American politics thread.
But I think it is an interesting and captivating, albeit slightly long, read, which I would highly recommend. It contains personal experiences, first hand both by herself and her family and the extreme lengths some anti abortion activists have gone to in the USA and how many people have been complicit in their actions and where we find ourselves now.
An interesting read for sure.
I struggled for a while to think about where exactly this article should go. Realistically, it covers such a broad range of topics. It could have gone in here, in the ISIS thread, American politics thread.
But I think it is an interesting and captivating, albeit slightly long, read, which I would highly recommend. It contains personal experiences, first hand both by herself and her family and the extreme lengths some anti abortion activists have gone to in the USA and how many people have been complicit in their actions and where we find ourselves now.
An interesting read for sure.
Many doctors won't do it. I worked in a obs and gynae unit where only one out of six or seven consultants would do surgical abortions where the mother and fetus were healthy. I remember the senior guy telling me that he was in the specialty to save lives, not end them.
I wouldn’t want to do it either. From what I understand, a surgical abortion dismembers the baby. Ripping a baby out piece by piece must be a horrific undertaking.